Should strength give hp?

[Saberstrike]

EDITED: Original thread was about strength giving HP. I've expanded it to include my thoughts on other stats.

I honestly don't understand what the purpose of being a plate class is any more; They're nerfing plate (and mail) armor in WoD, and HP has been largely similar for a long time. Hell, locks and druids with heart of the wild have more health than tanks!

I feel like something has to be done to return us to the RPG equilibrium of 'warrior has most health'; I don't much care for reasons of balance, but if you wish to nitpick we could bring up the fact warrior has little to nothing in ways of direct healing and yet has to constantly stand near things that really want to kill it.

So my proposal is simple: what if strength gave half the hp value of stamina?

(Original thread ends here)

With that I also had a few thoughts on how WoW went about handling it's stats from vanilla to WoD. I do like the removal of hit and expertise as they were largely little but taxing those who can't get it (which, with wow's way about content, is nobody). However, I really think they should review some of the stats and make things a little simpler.

Currently we have one base stat for each class (str, agi or int), a bunch of spec-only useful stats (spirit, bonus armor). Then we have versatility, haste, crit, mastery, multistrike. And then we have stamina, which just comes free with higher item level.

My opinion: Ratings should just go, with a lot of their benefits rolled into original stats. Gear will have a combination of said stats.

Rough sketch of how the new 'simplified' stats will work:

Strength will increase melee damage, health, melee/ranged critical strike damage and armor.

Agility will increase melee damage, ranged damage, melee / ranged crit strike chance.

Intellect will increase spell damage, spell crit chance and reduce resource cost of abilities by a tiny amount.

Spirit will increase healing, increase resource regeneration, reduce cooldown on abilities and increase chance of procs (including trinkets / weapons) by a tiny amount.

I feel like haste is responsible for a lot of classes feeling 'slow' - they're designed to NEED haste, so why not just stop dancing around the bush and remove it / tune specs dependant on it accordingly?

Mastery... Once again, there's no reason it has to be a stat. Why not just make it a small passive bonus that serves as a tuning knob when something needs adjustment?

Multistrike is basically the same as crit. I've no idea why it's needed.

Those are my thoughts on stats in WoW. What'd you guys think? Will simplicity feel better or are you in favour of 12 more ratings added for your min-maxing pleasure?

[Shisui-kun]

It's going to be fun seeing plate users running around with 600k hp in PvP gear while still doing the same damage as all casters.

[Saberstrike]

It's going to be fun seeing plate users running around with 600k hp in PvP gear while still doing the same damage as all casters.

*points at warlocks*

[Eon Drache]

The reason is so casters can remain king of the arena.

[kamuimac]

This is just showing to what degree pvp is screing up pve immersion

pvp should have been from very beggining different game in game with its own 3rd build and equal gear from day one so it really was fair not -"im geting kicked in the butt untill i get full conquest gear when i pvn all noobs without full conquest gear" - pvp is one of the worst thing whihc happened to wow pve enviroment its been screwing it since day bg were introduced nd replaced world pvp in pve gear.

[Deleted]

Hell, locks and druids with heart of the wild have more health than tanks!

Druids can have more HP than tanks, just like brewmasters can have more avoidance than tanks... wait wait what ?

I feel like something has to be done to return us to the RPG equilibrium of 'warrior has most health

And you got that from... where exactly ?

If you wish to nitpick, we could bring up the fact warrior has little to nothing in ways of direct healing and yet has to constantly stand near things that really want to kill it

If you want to nitpick, I think you would be the first to cry about nearly invincible ret-Paladins with high health pool AND healing destroying you.


No offense, but did you even think about what you wrote ?

[Saberstrike]

brewmasters -are- tanks, unless you mean monk? In which case... Agility classes always had a lot of avoidance, it's sort of been a part of their kit to offset historically low hp / armor.

Where did I get that warriors have more HP than the rest? Have you ever played an RPG in your life besides WoW? I won't even have to go far; Go look up warcraft 3 hero stats. Archmage -- most popular alliance hero -- had 850 health at max. level. Tauren Chieftain had 1425.

Ret paladins are a special case that needs to be handled with care; Rets themselves will probably agree that they're in a weird spot right now, so my proposed change isn't -just- to slap extra health on the current meta. It'll have to come with a lot more little tweaks!

[Shisui-kun]

*points at warlocks*

Because warlocks have 600k HP unbuffed in WoD xD

[Deleted]

brewmasters -are- tanks, unless you mean monk? In which case... Agility classes always had a lot of avoidance, it's sort of been a part of their kit to offset historically low hp / armor.

Where did I get that warriors have more HP than the rest? Have you ever played an RPG in your life besides WoW? I won't even have to go far; Go look up warcraft 3 hero stats. Archmage -- most popular alliance hero -- had 850 health at max. level. Tauren Chieftain had 1425.

Ret paladins are a special case that needs to be handled with care; Rets themselves will probably agree that they're in a weird spot right now, so my proposed change isn't -just- to slap extra health on the current meta. It'll have to come with a lot more little tweaks!

MMORPG =/= RTS. Easy as that.

[Saberstrike]

Fine, go look at literally any other mmorpg!

[Shisui-kun]

Fine, go look at literally any other mmorpg!

Only if they get to be sitting ducks 24/7 so they can tank it, like other MMO's. Deal?

45 hp for 1 strength is way too much with the whole kit.

[Gimlix]

I wouldn't mind if they made it like, if a character has over 5000 strength (example) his gains 5% more health

[Rivin]

*points at warlocks*

Warlocks are an outlier. What you're saying basically boils down to "nerf warlocks".

[Saberstrike]

Warlocks are just one example where current shenanigans with stats led to absurdity. I don't want to 'nerf warlocks', I want systems to be fixed so such things don't happen.

[Strakha]

Warlocks are an outlier. What you're saying basically boils down to "nerf warlocks".

Indeed good sir /monocle

[Deleted]

brewmasters -are- tanks, unless you mean monk? In which case... Agility classes always had a lot of avoidance, it's sort of been a part of their kit to offset historically low hp / armor.

Where did I get that warriors have more HP than the rest? Have you ever played an RPG in your life besides WoW? I won't even have to go far; Go look up warcraft 3 hero stats. Archmage -- most popular alliance hero -- had 850 health at max. level. Tauren Chieftain had 1425.

Ret paladins are a special case that needs to be handled with care; Rets themselves will probably agree that they're in a weird spot right now, so my proposed change isn't -just- to slap extra health on the current meta. It'll have to come with a lot more little tweaks!

I wrote 'brewmaster' in purpose. Druids, the 'High HP class' you mentioned can be tanks, too. (If you want to say that this is unfair, tell me about cats ans moonkins high survability .
I do play other rpgs. And correct me if I'm wrong, but these 'low hp non-warriors almost always got something Else to compensate, most times it's more dps/better movement/pets to reduce incoming damage etc.
And by the way: druids, at least tanks, almost always had much more hp than warriors since vanilla.

Rets were only an example. Imagine second wind with higher health

[Keyboard Champion]

Normally yes. Having high strengh tmeans you're doing bussiness in melee and if you're in melee you need to be more resilient to damage than other classes, so it's kinda related.

[Saberstrike]

I wrote 'brewmaster' in purpose. Druids, the 'High HP class' you mentioned can be tanks, too. (If you want to say that this is unfair, tell me about cats ans moonkins high survability

Those are different cases though. Druids in particular are meant to be squishy if caught out in the open, compensating for that by having instant/free/spammable root removal and arguably most healing of all the hybrids.

What does monk tank having avoidance have to do with anything? And as long as we're on the subject of tanks, you're right - bears did historically have a lot of health. That was because they were practically a warrior in disguise, benefiting from strength up until mid-wotlk.

I do play other rpgs. And correct me if I'm wrong, but these 'low hp non-warriors' almost always got something Else to compensate, most times it's more dps/better movement/pets to reduce incoming damage etc.

Yes. Exactly. They got all that in WoW as well. Warriors are competitive but hardly the best there is, which honestly brings me to wonder what is your point?

Rets were only an example. Imagine second wind with higher health

Second wind is a bad ability and it's being removed / remade in WoD. Thing about second wind is that if you and said warrior are both full geared then you can get through second wind without issue, as any class that isn't a healer.

Not to mention the talent is completely and totally useless in pve.

[Blithe]

It makes sense in Warcraft 3 as there were only three statistics and because they each had a unique purpose as there was no "Stamina", but it doesn't make sense at all for World of Warcraft. If anything you should be suggesting that Plate, Mail, Leather and Cloth keep their original damage reduction disparities, instead of a notion towards increasing the health of strength-only classes.

Besides, you know you'd have to be reduced in damage and/or mobility to compensate for balance purposes, right?

[Ineko]

Stupid idea. No.