Gear in 3.0.. What the...?

[Khelendros]

So long as you can acquire marks in PVP when not raiding it would always be in your best interest to be PVPing when not raiding.

If you just did PVP you might not gain statistical progression as quickly as someone whom only raided, perhaps. However, if you only engaged in PVE you would gain statiscal power slower absolutely than someone who did PVE and PVP.

Thus the meta goal is created that if one wished to be competitive in PVE they must engage in PVP and PVE regardless of the rate of acquisition because the modes are asymmetrical.

This can not be resolved from a design POV under any circumstance other than changing the fundamental rule set of Rift.

This is a straw man argument though. Cause ok take raiding out of the equation. You will still get marks faster from doing experts than from doing pvp! There is simply no scenario in which its better to pvp than PVE unless you actually WANT to pvp.

This is incidentally why the pvpers are so upset. They feel its unfair that PVE players will now have the same gear but be able to gain it faster. And I kinda understand that perspective. But ultimately just like many hardcore pvp players won't make great raiders, a great raider won't necessarily make a great pvper.

[Fencers]

Cause ok take raiding out of the equation. You will still get marks faster from doing experts than from doing pvp! There is simply no scenario in which its better to pvp than PVE unless you actually WANT to pvp.

We will see. I am only going on presumption here till I see what the deal is firsthand, when I have the time to.

If these marks are daily limited by mode, you would still be better off doing PVP and PVE though.

This is incidentally why the pvpers are so upset.

They should be.

[Lathais]

You will still get marks faster from doing experts than from doing pvp!

Until you've done you 7 Experts for the week and can get no more that way. Then you can get none from Experts and continue to gain some via PvP. Once again, the edge goes to the person who does both. If I am a PvEer, it is not raid time and I am done with my Experts I would actually prefer to do something else other than PvP.

[Khelendros]

Until you've done you 7 Experts for the week and can get no more that way. Then you can get none from Experts and continue to gain some via PvP. Once again, the edge goes to the person who does both. If I am a PvEer, it is not raid time and I am done with my Experts I would actually prefer to do something else other than PvP.

There will also be ways to get said currency outside of experts. Raid Rifts (there will be two of those, I'm testing those Friday), Nightmare Rifts (Rank 4+). So there really is no reason to say that if you do every dungeon and raid you can that you are capped in PVE cause you won't be. PVP still slower. Alot slower.

And for the record even if this was not the case I am very much ok with rewarding people who play all the game with a little something extra. People spend alot of time making these games, I'd imagine they want us to play as much of it as possible. Don't want to pvp, cool, but you may miss out on a few marks. Granted it doesn't seem like its going to work out this way because of how much slower the pvp grind is, but thats my personal feeling on it.

[Lathais]

There will also be ways to get said currency outside of experts. Raid Rifts (there will be two of those, I'm testing those Friday), Nightmare Rifts (Rank 4+). So there really is no reason to say that if you do every dungeon and raid you can that you are capped in PVE cause you won't be. PVP still slower. Alot slower.

And for the record even if this was not the case I am very much ok with rewarding people who play all the game with a little something extra. People spend alot of time making these games, I'd imagine they want us to play as much of it as possible. Don't want to pvp, cool, but you may miss out on a few marks. Granted it doesn't seem like its going to work out this way because of how much slower the pvp grind is, but thats my personal feeling on it.

I didn't say once I did raids and dungeons I was capped for PvE. I said I'd rather do something other than PvP. Raid Rifts, if anything like the previous, super easy and boring. Nightmare Rifts, have to see on this, but even if it is somehow fun after the 100th time, will it be equal or greater than the rate at which you acquire marks from PvP?

[Fencers]

Don't want to pvp, cool, but you may miss out on a few marks.

The problem with this is it leads to people not being able to play the game. It is a set of design which narrows player choice in how they engage with the game- which of course is a contradiction of the game design you suggest.

[Slipmat]

I must be the only one seeing this as everyone is a "player", there's no PvP or die only player and there's no PvE forevah player, just a player. I can see where Trion are coming from, put everyone on an equal or nearly equal footing and have them play all aspects of the game.

Having the same pool of gear means a "pure" PvP'er can jump into his Guild's raid night if they were short a person, or little Johnny Awesome raider rocking his relics can jump into a Warfront, except his gear gets down graded to be the same as the PvP player.

From what i'm reading about most of the whines is that people in full r90 Relic PvP gear can no long rofl stomp fresh level 60's, soon to be 65's in their questing greens and blues, doesn't that somehow negate what they've been trying to persuade us all along that PvP is all about the "skillz" and your reactions and not about the gear?

Now everyone is on a level playing field, AFKing your way through Warfronts or doing /follow in Conquests to get the "l33t, uber" gear now means jack, you'll have the same gear, stats wise, as any other player in the Warfront, be it Jimmy pew pew who only PvPs or Johnny Awesome rocking his PvE Relics, everyone is the same so now it's time for them to show who actually, truely has the "skillz"

[Fencers]

Having the same pool of gear means a "pure" PvP'er can jump into his Guild's raid night if they were short a person, or little Johnny Awesome raider rocking his relics can jump into a Warfront, except his gear gets down graded to be the same as the PvP player.

It also means players will have to engage in modes they potentially may not enjoy or wish to play to satisfy the meta goal the game in a limited linear power progression MMO with a bimodal endgame.

Even if one did enjoy equally two modes which are contradictory of each other; one would always be worse off for not engaging in both unless a gating mechanism is created as part of the central design.

[Khelendros]

The problem with this is it leads to people not being able to play the game. It is a set of design which narrows player choice in how they engage with the game- which of course is a contradiction of the game design you suggest.

You can play the game you just wouldn't be as rewarded for it much as someone who plays all facets of the game. You are equating ability to play the game with being rewarded for doing so. What ever happened to gaming because its fun?

- - - Updated - - -

One last thing to note is that I was a hardcore pve player/rper until I was harassed into doing PVP in DAOC. Well ever since then I have loved PVP just as much as PVE and honestly I find most former DAOC players are that way. I guess maybe its just that modern gamers aren't forced to try and expand their horizons and when pushed to do so they complain about it. Again not sure if this will work for Rift or not, but if a handful of people who never would have done pvp before try it to get some extra marks and find out they love it...well I think thats a success.

As for Lathais's question about Nightmare Rifts I don't know. Loot is still being added. What we do know is that as of this weeks patch after stage 80 every 40 levels thereafter will drop a chest with a essence. Stats on said essences, and what else the chests might contain are still being worked on. Bosses will also drop things. I suggested a full set of Nightmare Rift gear thats upgradable as you progress and MikeD very much liked that idea but the team has to ok it.

The average Nightmare Rift boss drops 120 void stones currently. And cache's (awarded when you hit bonus and every 10 levels) contain 180 void stones as well. I will certainly push for raid currency to be added and I'm pretty sure that Tier 3+ will have them anyways as the mobs in those tiers are basically expert dungeon difficulty for trash. But yea Nightmare Rifts are very fun, not like G Hunts at all. Maybe a little more along the lines of the 62 elite strongholds without jump pads. There are mechanics, there are bosses, you can get one shot. Etc.

[Fencers]

You can play the game you just wouldn't be as rewarded for it much as someone who plays all facets of the game. You are equating ability to play the game with being rewarded for doing so. What ever happened to gaming because its fun?

I do not understand what you mean by "fun". That is not my concern or interest on this topic. Only interested in gameplay and game design here.

The only expression of gameplay in Rift is the progression of statistical power. Presumably one enjoys that gameplay or why would they be playing? Your statement is strange to me.

It is possible not all players will consider having their options for advancement narrowed and/or forced upon them in modes they do not chose to engage in ordinarily.

It is also very possible not all players will find it fun to satisfy time gated gearing thresholds by having to "play all modes" where that was not expressed in the gameplay of Rift.

[Deleted]

Always found players whove honed themselves through PVP and actually good at it, become better pve players then pve players who only ever done PVE, this was true from what Ive seen in wow, the extra awareness, the needed tighter timings that come from natural practice that isnt scripted and is based on judgement more then anything is so much better.

So though you will get bad players, the good players that may come from this would shine more, or even give other PVE players more pvp practice will translate into their skills more, always found pve players who dont touch pvp to be slow learners, this be a good encouragement to get them better at it just from doing it more then anything.

[Bznga]

Considering how long the pvp grind is in rift,for someone like me who likes to do only couple warfronts a day,this is very good news.

[Lathais]

You can play the game you just wouldn't be as rewarded for it much as someone who plays all facets of the game. You are equating ability to play the game with being rewarded for doing so. What ever happened to gaming because its fun?

I play for fun, yes. PvE is fun to me. PvP is not. Was not in WoW no matter how many times my guild dragged me along before I left the guild. Was not interested in PvP in Rift, despite having two good friends that got me to play Rift trying to get me in to PvP. I did a lot of PvP because, again, the guild made me. I ended up leaving the guild. It was not that I was poor at PvP, in fact, since I was in organized teams in vent we typically won and I was usually high on DPS/Heals or whatever I was doing. I still did not like it. It was not fun to me in the least. I would rather be doing just about anything else.

The biggest problem I see with this is that if the marks are shared and after having done your daily Expert marks can be obtained faster via PvP than via Rifts of any kind, guilds will expect you to be doing PvP. I have already left 2 guilds, with people I actually enjoyed playing with most of the time, including real life friends I still hang out with. If I would not stick with friends why would I stick with a game?

One last thing to note is that I was a hardcore pve player/rper until I was harassed into doing PVP in DAOC. Well ever since then I have loved PVP just as much as PVE and honestly I find most former DAOC players are that way. I guess maybe its just that modern gamers aren't forced to try and expand their horizons and when pushed to do so they complain about it. Again not sure if this will work for Rift or not, but if a handful of people who never would have done pvp before try it to get some extra marks and find out they love it...well I think thats a success.

So you enjoy being forced to do something you do not want to do? You enjoy being forced to do something you know you do not like? How about I force you into a room full of scorpions, spiders and snakes? Players should never be forced to do anything in a game they do not want to. You may call it a success if just a handful of people try it and like it, but if it drives players like me away from the game, then it is obviously a failure. I already know several people from back in vanilla that left over CQ Power. They did not like it, if you wanted to be in a decent raiding guild they required CQ Power, so they moved on. They have not come back either, they are playing FFXIV. I also know lots of players who groan about it and just do not enjoy it. If players si actually enjoy it, they would not just join at the very end to get currency and go. Players do not like being forced to do things they do not want to do. When you start pushing someone one way, they will go another, like to another game.

[Khelendros]

Considering the rather heated argument that sprung from this. I'll just leave this little video here. Credit goes to Mire from the Rift Forums.

[Fencers]

When the woman says, "Don't worry, Battle Surge and Tactical Surge are on different buttons." I laughed aloud.

[Khelendros]

When the woman says, "Don't worry, Battle Surge and Tactical Surge are on different buttons." I laughed aloud.

That and bondage shark are my favorite bits.

Joking aside, the book isn't closed on all this. Especially with 2 weeks now to go. There is alot of discussion in the alpha forums about ways to adjust this so its less....pushy? As I said I like the idea, but I just don't know if it will achieve anything and even so, I think the implementation is off. Definitely time for them to get it right now.

[Fencers]

This part was good too: link

We'll just see how it works. The problem is that once they open this door there is really no going back.

Introducing inequity like this will create a meta goal for only one side of the player base. PVP is not time gated or time sensitive; raiding is. Without artificiality, there is no possible way for Trion to reconcile this design.

Edit: Underwater Conquest. BBbbwwwhwhahaha. Hitler knows Rift too well.

[Frozenbeef]

PVP takes way more time to gear up than PVE though

[Lathais]

PVP takes way more time to gear up than PVE though

But you can only gain so much per week through PvE, after that, what then? Enjoy yourself or be pressured in to PvP, rejected by people who do PvP after capping weekly PvE if you do not.

[Edge-]

But you can only gain so much per week through PvE, after that, what then? Enjoy yourself or be pressured in to PvP, rejected by people who do PvP after capping weekly PvE if you do not.

Unless they cap what you can earn per week via PvP...in which case ho boy will they have riots on their hands.