Gear in 3.0.. What the...?

[Deleted]

I was told yesterday that in 3.0 there will be no pvp and no pve gear. It will be same gear for everything. I was also told that you can do PVP for same marks as you get in PVE? Then why would i waste countless or hours dying in raids when i could just go and do some PVP instead? For prestige going around saying i killed that and this boss? Then it will just turn into same game and raiding style as FFXIV.....

IF i have understood the concept they are brigning , I call bullshit and - 10.000xxxxx hype on my part. I dont wanna get out geared by some casual who does pvp all day when I actually work for my gear in PVE

[Selah]

Two things here.

The first is skill, awareness, and experience with current content will far outweigh gear. Sure, the guy that does nothing but PvP now has the same quality gear as you but when someone asks him for his experience and he says he hasn't done anything, or he can't move out of the fire and keeps dying he's going to get removed. Same applies to PvP.

Second is BiS gear is going to be from boss gear and essences are going to be rewarded from PvE play. So the raiders are still going to stand out and be a better pick compared to PvP players. Not to mention there are no drops to give gear for PvP players and that PvP players are going to have to grind a lot harder and longer to get their gear.

I think for a game with four roles and both PvP and PvE that this is a good move. I'm always jumping around between the two, so it's nice to know that I can still do what I enjoy doing and progress through the game instead of just hitting a brick wall.

[RoninaThorstone]

Filthy casuals! lol.

[Fencers]

I haven't even looked into this... troublesome though.

I will likely not enjoy this kind of change if it works as suggested. But I'll reserve actual judgement for when I have time to play Rift. Right now I am not playing much of anything.

[ItachiZaku]

I sort of like the idea, but I can see how this wouldn't exactly be great. When I first came up in MMOs, there was one set of gear (Ultima Online) and then in WoW, it was the same, PVE and PVP gear was the same for the most part. When you start to separate the two but get an itch to do something new on a toon that was primarily PVE or PVP... you really do start behind the ball. I did like early on in Rift having top notch PVP gear and being asked if I wanted to raid, did so and they were shocked that I topped the healing meters by a lot and then commented on replacing my PVP gear, when there weren't really any upgrades there for me. In that regard, I don't mind being able to do both and not having two sets of gear. I know I do both and I am good at both, at least on that one toon.

[Lathais]

I'm with Fencers on this one. It's pretty troubling. As if PvP and PvE were not already tied together too much, with people wanting max CQ Power for raids, now the gear is also shared. So the guy who enjoys PvP, which I don't in this game, will now progress faster than me? Even if the best is only available from bosses, who is going to get the raid spots? The guy that PvPed and has better gear or the guy who does not? The people who don't PvP will be behind the people who do. I am pretty vehemently against mixing PvP and PvE and putting in mechanics that cause other players to force you into the other area. It's something Daglar has said before, that he wants to make people try all aspects of the game. I do not think any game should make you do a part you do not like to do a part you do. I've not logged in to Rift in months now and likely won't. Trion still gets my money though because ArcheAge is awesome.

[Fencers]

To be clear, I do not care about how quickly another progresses relative to me.

I do care that one can progress in an opposing game mode at a rate equal or greater than in another. That is to say, I do not think it is good game design for one game mode (PVP) to progress your character along at a rate that is disproportional to actually completing another game mode (PVE).

I have the expectation that if I am engaged in game mode A successfully I am progressing in that game mode's difficulty and challenge. I do not have the expectation that by engaging in game mode B successfully I am progressing in game mode A's difficulty and challenge.

[ItachiZaku]

Are you also of the opinion then that items and progression in mode A shouldn't help with mode B? the most notable example being some higher end PVE weapons and trinkets being too OP in PVP. Something that WoW game has done is scale down the PVE gear in PVP, or rather put a cap on it.

[Orange Joe]

To be clear, I do not care about how quickly another progresses relative to me.

I do care that one can progress in an opposing game mode at a rate equal or greater than in another. That is to say, I do not think it is good game design for one game mode (PVP) to progress your character along at a rate that is disproportional to actually completing another game mode (PVE).

I have the expectation that if I am engaged in game mode A successfully I am progressing in that game mode's difficulty and challenge. I do not have the expectation that by engaging in game mode B successfully I am progressing in game mode A's difficulty and challenge.

This makes no sense. The only way you are going to progress through PvE is by killing bosses. Getting gear itself is not progressing through content. You actually have to do that content to progress through it.

[Lathais]

Are you also of the opinion then that items and progression in mode A shouldn't help with mode B? the most notable example being some higher end PVE weapons and trinkets being too OP in PVP. Something that WoW game has done is scale down the PVE gear in PVP, or rather put a cap on it.

Yes, I agree with that as well. there are plenty of people opposite of my stance that enjoy PvP but not Dungeons/Raids. The same is true of them. They should not be forced into an aspect of the game they do not want to participate in just to participate in what they enjoy. Themepark MMOs should be about choices. You should be able to choose which ride you go on. Not be fored to go ride a ride you dislike just to ride the one you do. It goes both ways.

- - - Updated - - -

This makes no sense. The only way you are going to progress through PvE is by killing bosses. Getting gear itself is not progressing through content. You actually have to do that content to progress through it.

I do not have the expectation that by engaging in game mode B successfully I am progressing in game mode A's difficulty and challenge.

I belive difficulty and challenge are the keywords there. You are not progressing in the content, but you are making it easier by going in with better gear than is available if you did not do PvP.

[Edge-]

This makes no sense. The only way you are going to progress through PvE is by killing bosses. Getting gear itself is not progressing through content. You actually have to do that content to progress through it.

In terms of gear, no, and raiding really comes down to gear progression.

The line of thought being that one could conceivably never step foot into a T1 raid, instead exclusively participating in PvP, and acquire a full set of T1 token gear faster than someone who is exclusively raiding. At least that's what I'd imagine.

And it's an argument I tend to agree with. I'm fine with a certain level of overlap (i.e. acquiring the powerful PvP/PvE gear lends some power in the opposite mode of play, but isn't as powerful as gear designed specifically for that method of play), but I'm kinda not a big fan of having a singular currency shared between the two.

[gonterf]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with this - it's high time raiding was scaled back in terms of its impact on gear progression, and having two separate progression paths really just stinks of the whole 'who deserves to get upgrades' garbage. That being said, it seems that Trion wants for people who play both game types to progress faster than those who do just one, so I'm a little concerned that this will promote excessive play times.

[GrimTheGamer]

Trust me, your point of view is shared by PvPers but on the opposite end of things. Hardcore PvPers don't like the fact that someone doing raiding content all the time can come into a PvP match and outgear every PvPer there and will be able to faceroll damage out and kill people. Skill does come into the equation, but gear is very important and we all know it.

[Fencers]

The only way you are going to progress through PvE is by killing bosses.

Which requires an absolute threshold of statistical output by all gameplay rules of Rift.

A threshold (presumably) now achievable by not killing bosses, but playing a non-PVE game mode.

Getting gear itself is not progressing through content.

In Rift it is such. The gameplay is expressed as a limited linear progression of statical power of one's character from level 1 to cap. In the post-level cap PVE play of Rift the gameplay is expressed as a limited linear progression of statical power in one's character through the acquisition of gear.

[Orange Joe]

Which requires an absolute threshold of statistical output by all gameplay rules of Rift.

A threshold (presumably) now achievable by not killing bosses, but playing a non-PVE game mode.

In Rift it is such. The gameplay is expressed as a limited linear progression of statical power of one's character from level 1 to cap. In the post-level cap PVE play of Rift the gameplay is expressed as a limited linear progression of statical power in one's character through the acquisition of gear.

Character progression =/= content progression. You don't progress through content until you actually do it.

[ItachiZaku]

Character progression =/= content progression. You don't progress through content until you actually do it.

True to a point. If you exclusively PVP, and PVP gear tiers go up a level each time PVE pumps out a new raid that includes an across the board bump in gear levels, and you come in at the tail end of an expansion which included say 4 tiers, you can take your tier 4 PVP gear and easily stomp the first 2 PVE tiers, maybe a wipe or 3 in the Tier 3 PVE tier, and then settle into a decent situation for progression in the tier 4 PVE level. In that regard, you did just skip 3 content tiers and did content progression.

It is a debate that will probably never be settled. Part of the problem is to distinguish between the two, extra gates are added that makes entry level all the more painful. Rift at least has (had? haven't played in awhile) where you gain ranks as you go, and you need the points to get the gear, so essentially, everyone should be near the same gear in each bracket. Whereas in other games, I'm in BIS PVP gear across the board with 4 others in my guild, we queue for random and get a whole group of ungeared Jabroni's.... though highly fun, it is completely unfair.

[Orange Joe]

True to a point. If you exclusively PVP, and PVP gear tiers go up a level each time PVE pumps out a new raid that includes an across the board bump in gear levels, and you come in at the tail end of an expansion which included say 4 tiers, you can take your tier 4 PVP gear and easily stomp the first 2 PVE tiers, maybe a wipe or 3 in the Tier 3 PVE tier, and then settle into a decent situation for progression in the tier 4 PVE level. In that regard, you did just skip 3 content tiers and did content progression.

It is a debate that will probably never be settled. Part of the problem is to distinguish between the two, extra gates are added that makes entry level all the more painful. Rift at least has (had? haven't played in awhile) where you gain ranks as you go, and you need the points to get the gear, so essentially, everyone should be near the same gear in each bracket. Whereas in other games, I'm in BIS PVP gear across the board with 4 others in my guild, we queue for random and get a whole group of ungeared Jabroni's.... though highly fun, it is completely unfair.

I'm not trying to say extra gear won't help you in content progression. But the gear itself doesn't automatically progress you through content.


I also understand what you are saying, but as you said you aren't progressing through that content, you are skipping it.

[Lathais]

Character progression =/= content progression. You don't progress through content until you actually do it.

This may be true. However, if you acquire PvP gear that is equivalent to T2 gear, or at least better than T1 gear, and then go kill the T1 bosses, you have negated the challenge of T1. Even though you have killed the bosses and progressed through the content, you did it without having gone through the progression and the struggle. Of course, people do this anyway. By the time T2 comes out, guilds are perfectly capable of carrying 2-5 people through a raid, negating the challenge. That way of negating the challenge is acceptable, to a point, because there is not much you can do about it. However, giving PvP gear that negates the challenge in PvE is just stupid, IMO.

[Orange Joe]

This may be true. However, if you acquire PvP gear that is equivalent to T2 gear, or at least better than T1 gear, and then go kill the T1 bosses, you have negated the challenge of T1. Even though you have killed the bosses and progressed through the content, you did it without having gone through the progression and the struggle. Of course, people do this anyway. By the time T2 comes out, guilds are perfectly capable of carrying 2-5 people through a raid, negating the challenge. That way of negating the challenge is acceptable, to a point, because there is not much you can do about it. However, giving PvP gear that negates the challenge in PvE is just stupid, IMO.

I don't see how it is different at all. Nor do I see why one way is acceptable but not the other. At least in one version the person worked for his gear and wasn't carried.

[Lathais]

I don't see how it is different at all. Nor do I see why one way is acceptable but not the other. At least in one version the person worked for his gear and wasn't carried.

It is acceptable, to a degree, because if I am a guild/raid leader(I was when I still played) I can make the choice to not carry people. If they can just go out and outgear those of us that do not do PvP I can not do much about that. It's pretty easy to say, sorry, we are not carrying you. It's much harder to say, no, you cano not participate in that activity or if you do, don't bring the gear.

In addition to this, if I were just a member in a guild, and I choose not to PvP, I will not get picked over someone who does have the gear. People will not carry people through anymore, because you can just go get the PvP gear. This forces players in to an aspect of the game they may not like.

Also, there will be less PuGs. If players do not need to run them for the gear to get to the next tier, they will not. They will spend their time PvPing instead of putting together PuGs.