Page 37 of 122 FirstFirst ...
27
35
36
37
38
39
47
87
... LastLast
  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I did respond to that. The interaction is mana and useability of the spells. PW:S is more costly, and more clunky as you only heal one target at a time for a huge amount. Nova is very flexible, mobile and cheap, and thus it gives far less output. The interaction is mana - you don't need any other interaction.
    I see. Fair enough. Having no environment to actually use the spell though, does make it bad, wouldn't you agree? I mean, even in a Norushen fight, you would be spamming Power Word, not Holy Nova. Or maybe HN at start and PW:S later in the fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The thing is though that no matter what, we will be spamming something with the occasional weave, and that's the problem of disc, especially when inevitably compared to Holy's feel of synergy and flow. Disc can certainly use gameplay improvements, and that's the point for me, at least.

  2. #722
    Deleted
    Was wondering what stats most of you are going for? Still crit mastery or is with the lower ilvl, mastery more favorable?

    Also is the DMF trinket any good or are the dungeon trinkets much better?

  3. #723
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I think the issue here is that you seem to think that Holy nova build be a "viable AOE" spell, when Holy nova is really only there to provide disc with a mana-positive button to click if nothing is going on. It isn't there to be a competitive AOE heal (or even do more throughput) than a spell like PW:S which costs mana, and has a 10 second debuff limiter (meaning you can't spam a target).
    Yeah, this would work fine if Holy Nova was mana-positive. With around 1k spirit and buffed, it was still a noticeable mana loss for me when I was testing it out last night. By the time we gain enough spirit that the ability is truly mana positive, we will be able to use more of those GCDs on PW:S. For Holy Nova to be worthwhile casting, it needs to be slightly more powerful in my opinion since it isn't fire and forget like Healing Rain or Efflorescence.

  4. #724
    DMF trinket seems to work out pretty well in dungeons.Hopefully until the raid comes out i`ll have it upgraded , i think its mana regen should be usefull.
    As for stats , im going for crit / mastery , trying to keep a equal lvl between them.Though i have more mastery on items , i started gemming and enchanting crit where i could.I dont know yet , in raids ,if haste would be any good , having a 2.4 sec cast time ( withouth BT ) on CoW and PoH...is so...meh..

  5. #725
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tataie View Post
    DMF trinket seems to work out pretty well in dungeons.Hopefully until the raid comes out i`ll have it upgraded , i think its mana regen should be usefull.
    As for stats , im going for crit / mastery , trying to keep a equal lvl between them.Though i have more mastery on items , i started gemming and enchanting crit where i could.I dont know yet , in raids ,if haste would be any good , having a 2.4 sec cast time ( withouth BT ) on CoW and PoH...is so...meh..
    I'm planning to have mine upgraded, but holy crap its going to take ages to get all of that blood, I absolutely refuse to pay more than 1.6k per.

  6. #726
    I can never understand why people think that 'mana positive' or 'mana-neutral' are pertinent metrics to apply to any spell discussion. Holy Nova is awful because it is currently terribly inefficient (approximately equivalent to PoH at 1/3 the throughput but w/o the party restriction). If damage is low enough to make pw:s unusable then you should probably let other cluster smart heals like Rain/Efflo/etc that are more efficient do that work and store up mana (by simply idling) to use on more pw:s or poh for burst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Except unless the target you shield actually takes damage, PW:S doesn't do anything - thus holy nova is great for topping people up efficiently if the entire raid is sitting at, say, 80% hp, and you can't deduct where damage will hit next. It's a *filler*.
    I'm not sure how you're measuring 'efficiency' but by that logic smite should be great at that job too, right? The magnitude of the cost shouldn't really have a place in deciding whether you choose to cast it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I did respond to that. The interaction is mana and useability of the spells. PW:S is more costly, and more clunky as you only heal one target at a time for a huge amount. Nova is very flexible, mobile and cheap, and thus it gives far less output. The interaction is mana - you don't need any other interaction.
    You see this reflected in party and smaller raids, but when you're healing with 2-4 additional people that kind of niche healing is far less detrimental to the success of your raid. Encounters where that niche triage healing would be ineffective will heavily favor holy. HN and pw:s used to have a very strong interaction between throughput and efficiency before the nerf. Now it's just too inefficient to use altogether. Too bad, really. I never really liked HN, but at least it gave the spec a small level of decision making.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Crzed View Post
    I can never understand why people think that 'mana positive' or 'mana-neutral' are pertinent metrics to apply to any spell discussion. Holy Nova is awful because it is currently terribly inefficient (approximately equivalent to PoH at 1/3 the throughput but w/o the party restriction). If damage is low enough to make pw:s unusable then you should probably let other cluster smart heals like Rain/Efflo/etc that are more efficient do that work and store up mana (by simply idling) to use on more pw:s or poh for burst.
    Not relevant in dungeons/CM's, which is where all our current data is from.



    I'm not sure how you're measuring 'efficiency' but by that logic smite should be great at that job too, right? The magnitude of the cost shouldn't really have a place in deciding whether you choose to cast it.
    Smite does a fifth of holy nova, but builds archangel stacks. It's a balancing act.



    You see this reflected in party and smaller raids, but when you're healing with 2-4 additional people that kind of niche healing is far less detrimental to the success of your raid. Encounters where that niche triage healing would be ineffective will heavily favor holy. HN and pw:s used to have a very strong interaction between throughput and efficiency before the nerf. Now it's just too inefficient to use altogether. Too bad, really. I never really liked HN, but at least it gave the spec a small level of decision making.
    And if that's the case, then so be it - the spec doesn't need a strong tool for everything. It needs a mediocre tool for everything so it can do well in solo (5man) content, and a strong niche in raids.

  8. #728
    Deleted
    Do you see any use for cow in raid wide healing (no particular person getting the bulk of damage).

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    To be honest, HN is a terrible design-wise spell, and needs to be taken out and completely removed. It will either be extremely strong or borderline useless. When there are no interactions between spells, you will simply use what is best and if HN is better than PW:S, we will spam that. If PW:S is better than HN, then we spam this. Devs need to rethink the spec a bit. This is silly.
    It's dumb because they refuse to give it (or any of our abilities) any kind of interaction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Except unless the target you shield actually takes damage, PW:S doesn't do anything - thus holy nova is great for topping people up efficiently if the entire raid is sitting at, say, 80% hp, and you can't deduct where damage will hit next. It's a *filler*.

    But if you insist on not using it, be my guest - it's just silly to complain about it when no other healer has as many different choises for different scenarios as disc does. Really gives the whole "entitlement" thing a new meaning when you complain that one of three choises is "bad", when all other healers only get one choise in that specific situation (their basic heal-spell).
    You are correct, if you can't predict the damage then PWS is not going to be a good choice, and holy nova is better. But, realistically in just about any encounter, if you cant immediately predict the damage, it's still pretty likely that there's an upcoming mechanic that you can predict.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    Do you see any use for cow in raid wide healing (no particular person getting the bulk of damage).
    Unlikely. It's main purpose is tank healing and it's cast time + single target nature makes it rather unsuitable for raid wide damage, especially since PWS can cover most of the situations you'd consider using it for (eg, dots on people, spike damage on people, etc).
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  10. #730
    Deleted
    Raids starts next week. I'll start with normal but I still wonder what I'm gonna do with this spec. Just spam pw:s to everyone?

    What if there is no mana to do that on 15+ people?

    I may just cow the tank or something.

  11. #731
    What exactly do you view as "interaction" that other healers happen to have, by the way, Atonement? As far as I can see, disc has plenty of interaction - just because I've been playing my resto shaman alt a lot, let's compare those two:

    PW:S interacts with all cast time spells by activating borrowed time, to give you a casting boost.
    Riptide enables rushing tides, which gives 2x charges of either 20% quicker heal, or 30% more crit on flash heal (healing surge).

    Solace, Smite, Penance enables archangel, which interacts with PoH/Flash heal to enable 100% crit (and every healing spell's potency is increased by 25%) - thus low-output prioritising leads to high burst and sustain for a while. Furthermore, smite interacts with penance by lowering it's CD to enable more use of strongest targetted heal.

    Shaman... *crickets*. I guess unleash life? small singletarget heal that makes your next casted heal stronger.

    Furthermore, by choosing the words of mending talent, all heals interacts by adding prayer of mending stacks that can be tactically used (still a personal favorite, no matter how much people praise CoW). Last but not least, all heals interact heavily with crit by virtue of being able to roll divine aegis (thus making holy nova a viable choise in a 5 man if you say, Archangel->PoH the group, realise that there's no heavy damage comming, then holy nova to keep the aegis stacks up).

    It's true that there's no major interaction with holy nova, I'll give you that. But "any of our abilities"... Naw, that's just plain wrong.

  12. #732
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post
    Raids starts next week. I'll start with normal but I still wonder what I'm gonna do with this spec. Just spam pw:s to everyone?

    What if there is no mana to do that on 15+ people?

    I may just cow the tank or something.
    Tank healing.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    [...]
    PW:S interacts with all cast time spells by activating borrowed time, to give you a casting boost.
    [...]
    Solace, Smite, Penance enables archangel, which interacts with PoH/Flash heal to enable 100% crit (and every healing spell's potency is increased by 25%) - thus low-output prioritising leads to high burst and sustain for a while. Furthermore, smite interacts with penance by lowering it's CD to enable more use of strongest targetted heal.
    [...]
    Yes, I'm always fishing for Borrowed Time because it has such an amzing, noticable effect on which spell I choose next, it really effects my immediate spell choices, because who would use PW:S if not for Borrowed Time? It gives like a 40% haste boost for the next >insert specific spell name<.
    And AA, yes, it really makes a difference to why spells to cast. I always combine Solace-AA-PoH in a fixed sequence! The interaction between Smite and PoH is totally immediate and noticable!
    Penance and Smite, however? Nice interactio, but it is sooo dated, it has been around forever and always will be, I'm sure.

    ...Actually... No.
    None of them (Aside from AA-PoH) really feel like they have a noticable positive effect on spell selection, Smite-Penance doesn't even exist anymore. If you didn't notice you can't have spent that much time trying out spell interactions with the disc spec. Maybe you just read some patch notes lately (not all of them mind you)?

  14. #734
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    who would use PW:S if not for Borrowed Time?

    You crazy.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post
    You crazy.
    Please do not cite partical posts without indicating you did so when the part you left out totally changes (inverses) the meaning of the part you took.
    In this case the words which clearly cast what you have quoted as irony.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    PW:S interacts with all cast time spells by activating borrowed time, to give you a casting boost.
    Riptide enables rushing tides, which gives 2x charges of either 20% quicker heal, or 30% more crit on flash heal (healing surge).
    Riptide->2x wave/surge is so much more meaningful than BT it's stupid to even try to put them on the same level. BT might as well just be a passive, since we're back to spamming PW:S so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Solace, [Smite, Penance] enables archangel, which interacts with PoH/Flash heal to enable 100% crit (and every healing spell's potency is increased by 25%) - thus low-output prioritising leads to high burst and sustain for a while. Furthermore, smite interacts with penance by lowering it's CD to enable more use of strongest targetted heal.

    Shaman... *crickets*. I guess unleash life? small singletarget heal that makes your next casted heal stronger.
    Solace/HF vs. UL is a valid comparison here as both are individually small effects but increase throughout later, and both are going to be used frequently during movement. But this "interaction" is really just the way they replaced IF for disc. Resto still has talented instant cast on a short CD which also plays into this (UL->instant healing rain wherever the raid is moving to, or Riptide->UL->Instant wave as a mobile tank save) and creates more interesting decisions for them. Plus the "smart" heal of solace/HF is actually like a really dumb healer, now. They nerfed the output of smart heals so much they're not worth using and the new dumb targeting makes them a liability. A shaman can put that UL, however small, on the right target, but disc has to pray HF goes somewhere useful.

    As for smite/offensive penance, I doubt either will see much use in high tier raiding as using them is essentially doing it wrong unless no one is taking any damage. AA isn't important enough (beyond the stacks you get from HF/solace) to make you want to use either spell. Maybe a free benefit for helping DPS during a burn phase, at best.

    Shaman toolkit feels much more fluid than disc. HST is still valuable, and so is healing rain and CH is at least partially controlled, while our smart heals are now a liability because more often than not they heal the wrong target (tank at 50% and DPS at 93% gets the solace heal ... perfect). Riptide is useful and makes the "efficient heal" spam less monotonous. UL is a movement boost and an interesting decision. And then, of course, you have infinitely stacking earth shields so that an extra shaman is not penalized, but two discs will step all over each other even in a 30-man flex-sized heroic.

    Our talent selections are pretty much decided for us by encounter mechanics, while shamans can adjust their utility much more freely based around the rest of the raid's healing comp. I have absolutely hated playing my elemental shaman's resto off-spec since I added it in Cata, and it currently feels very much like it did then, but I'm seriously considering using it in my raid because disc feels much less interesting, now. And I would definitely be switching if we had a second disc in our raid.

  17. #737
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Please do not cite partical posts without indicating you did so when the part you left out totally changes (inverses) the meaning of the part you took.
    In this case the words which clearly cast what you have quoted as irony.

    I don't get what's your problem. You clearly said "why cast it, if not for borrowed time". Were you being sarcastic and mocking someone and you meant the opposite? I didn't get it.

  18. #738
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post
    I don't get what's your problem. You clearly said "why cast it, if not for borrowed time". Were you being sarcastic and mocking someone and you meant the opposite? I didn't get it.
    Read what he wrote in its entirety!

    Yes, I'm always fishing for Borrowed Time because it has such an amzing, noticable effect on which spell I choose next, it really effects my immediate spell choices, because who would use PW:S if not for Borrowed Time? It gives like a 40% haste boost for the next >insert specific spell name<.
    And AA, yes, it really makes a difference to why spells to cast. I always combine Solace-AA-PoH in a fixed sequence! The interaction between Smite and PoH is totally immediate and noticable!
    Penance and Smite, however? Nice interactio, but it is sooo dated, it has been around forever and always will be, I'm sure.

    ...Actually... No.
    So yeah, being sarcastic. Not mocking, but suggesting that Borrowed Time isn't really a brilliant interaction.

  19. #739
    i think there is a lot of interaction in disc priest. i enjoy playing it. probably equal to, if not more than, my MW.

    i dunno, it's fun being able to crit shield people for 140k. what a broken ass spell lol

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    i think there is a lot of interaction in disc priest. i enjoy playing it. probably equal to, if not more than, my MW.

    i dunno, it's fun being able to crit shield people for 140k. what a broken ass spell lol
    There is interaction, just not much that affects spell selection. AA->PoH/FH and that is it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •