[6.2.3] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Deleted]

Can anyone confirm whether or not the 2P bonus activates on defensive Penance casts?

Just checked on PTR, defensive Penance gives 1 stack, offensive gives two.

[Deleted]

Try factoring the bonus from generating one extra stack of Evangelism.

If there's one, it's minimized.
/irony

You don't have to even use HF if you're smart about how you use Penance (realistically, you will have to use HF on occasion because I doubt anyone is capable of using Penance on CD perfectly), and there's no reason to cast HF unless you need the Evangelism stack. Keep in mind that HF doesn't benefit from AA, which means that you're essentially wasting the AA buff by using HF when it's up.

Smart usage of HF and Penance is on cooldown, there's no way around it.

Mindbender post-buff >>> Solace with the 2-piece.

2pc has no effect on MB or Solace.
MB could be better, depends on fight lenght, buffs available, whether it's used with Berserking/TW etc, but generally, Solace is still better choice for Disc.

Loads of top parses use Smite and offensive Penance too.

Obviously, that's how 6.0 Disc works. You need occasional Smites in order to reach Evangelism 5.
I was talking about 6.1. You're mixing apples and pears.

Also, I couldn't care less about top parses, 2 months into mythic HM.
And I had 78 casts of Smite, 65 casts of Solace and 3 casts of off Penance during our last Imperator kill, if that's gonna make you feel better.
[/QUOTE]

[ceddya]

If there's one, it's minimized.
/irony

So even though there's a benefit to using offensive Penance if the defensive option is going to overheal, we should just go with the less optimal option?

Smart usage of HF and Penance is on cooldown, there's no way around it.

Penance, yes. HF, no.

2pc has no effect on MB or Solace.
MB could be better, depends on fight lenght, buffs available, whether it's used with Berserking/TW etc, but generally, Solace is still better choice for Disc.

Sigh, the 2-piece means you do not need HF or Solace as an Evangelism builder as much anymore. With passive Haste and various buffs like PI/Shards (12.5% is the breakeven point), even the regen from MB surpasses that of Solace. In that case, sticking with Solace is just a waste of GCDs.

Obviously, that's how 6.0 Disc works. You need occasional Smites in order to reach Evangelism 5.
I was talking about 6.1. You're mixing apples and pears.

Also, I couldn't care less about top parses, 2 months into mythic HM.
And I had 78 casts of Smite, 65 casts of Solace and 3 casts of off Penance during our last Imperator kill, if that's gonna make you feel better.

You said that there isn't any time to use offensive Penance or Smites when AA isn't up. Clearly that's wrong. What point are you trying to make then?

[PosPosPos]

Sigh, the 2-piece means you do not need HF or Solace as an Evangelism builder as much anymore. With passive Haste and various buffs like PI/Shards (12.5% is the breakeven point), even the regen from MB surpasses that of Solace. In that case, sticking with Solace is just a waste of GCDs.

Really though, any of the BRF trinkets would easily replace Shards(is there even another haste on-use trinket in BRF?).

Chew Toy is obviously the top healer trinket in BRF(similar to what DSOD would be without the OP PPoP), which leaves the second trinket up in the air - for that, it's not going to be Shards anyway, and it's going to be impractical to try and line up RPPM haste trinkets with Mindbender.

Not saying that Mindbender isn't going to be the regen talent of choice, just that shards is obsolete. Even EBC/4of4 WH would still be better than shards anyway.

[Symmone]

Not sure if there has been big disussion about it yet, but the new alchemy trinket? Where does that fall with other available trinkets?
I was meh about the versatility but the equipped offers a higher return for mana pots which can be nice! And the int proc is nice!

[Deleted]

Penance, yes. HF, no.

Sigh, the 2-piece means you do not need HF or Solace as an Evangelism builder as much anymore. With passive Haste and various buffs like PI/Shards (12.5% is the breakeven point), even the regen from MB surpasses that of Solace. In that case, sticking with Solace is just a waste of GCDs.

Do you even play this class?

Let's bring top parses, your favorite tool of evaluation, back to this discussion. Take a look at top parses from Butcher (yes, the boss with literally zero free GCD's).

Notice that Butcher is in most cases <4 minutes long combat. 17+ Solace casts in every single top #10 parse. My guess is these guys were just wasting their GCD's?

The whole point of 2pc is that it GIVES you GCD's by doing what's right. Off Penance with 2pc is unnecessary action, because - as I've already said - with correct usage of Solace and Penance, you're going to have a lot of stacks of Evangelism.

You said that there isn't any time to use offensive Penance or Smites when AA isn't up. Clearly that's wrong. What point are you trying to make then?

Where did I say that?
I said
1/ 2pc def Penance is always better than 2pc off Penance, and w/o 2pc you should avoid off Penance (unless you are moving and in desperate need of Evangelism stack / Evangelism fading)
2/ You should avoid Smite for getting Evangelism stacks with 2pc. The way of getting Evangelism 5 without 2pc is 3x HF and 2x Smite.

So even though there's a benefit to using offensive Penance if the defensive option is going to overheal, we should just go with the less optimal option?

If the potential loss of 50k++ healing is enough for you to justify one extra (useless) Evangelism stack, then I think I'm done with this discussion

[PosPosPos]

If the potential loss of 50k++ healing is enough for you to justify one extra (useless) Evangelism stack, then I think I'm done with this discussion

That depends if 1 stack of AA is worth more than 50k++ healing.

1 stack AA is essentially 5% of every direct healing spell you cast while under AA. Which, if you cast Cascade x1, PoH x1 and 8x PW:S every time AA is up, you will in fact find that it is a lot more than 50k.

[Deleted]

That depends if 1 stack of AA is worth more than 50k++ healing.

1 stack AA is essentially 5% of every direct healing spell you cast while under AA. Which, if you cast Cascade x1, PoH x1 and 8x PW:S every time AA is up, you will in fact find that it is a lot more than 50k.

That's right.

But the thing is:
a/ any Evangelism stack gained after Evangelism 5 is useless
b/ you can't pop AA more than once in 30s

[ceddya]

Notice that Butcher is in most cases <4 minutes long combat. 17+ Solace casts in every single top #10 parse. My guess is these guys were just wasting their GCD's?

The whole point of 2pc is that it GIVES you GCD's by doing what's right. Off Penance with 2pc is unnecessary action, because - as I've already said - with correct usage of Solace and Penance, you're going to have a lot of stacks of Evangelism.

You do know that HF =/= Solace, right? With MB most likely providing greater regen than Solace in 6.1, why exactly would spec into it?

The correct usage of Penance is entirely dependent on the situation. Claiming that one should be using it defensively all the time regardless of overhealing is absolutely terrible advice.

Where did I say that?
I said
1/ 2pc def Penance is always better than 2pc off Penance, and w/o 2pc you should avoid off Penance (unless you are moving and in desperate need of Evangelism stack / Evangelism fading)
2/ You should avoid Smite for getting Evangelism stacks with 2pc. The way of getting Evangelism 5 without 2pc is 3x HF and 2x Smite.

Except everything you've said is untrue. If you defensive Penance is going to overheal, it's certainly not better than offensive Penance, especially without the AA buff. You also shouldn't be avoiding offensive Penance even without the 2 piece. Go check every top Disc parse, and you'll see both usages of Penance. I wonder why that is, heh.

If the potential loss of 50k++ healing is enough for you to justify one extra (useless) Evangelism stack, then I think I'm done with this discussion

It actually is if you can maximize the upcoming AA buff. Research your spec better.

[PosPosPos]

That's right.

But the thing is:
a/ any Evangelism stack gained after Evangelism 5 is useless

Don't go over 5 stacks then. Which you can't and won't if you simply offensive penance x2 defensive penance x1.

b/ you can't pop AA more than once in 30s

Uh huh, thank you for telling me something I already know...years ago.

[Deleted]

You do know that HF =/= Solace, right? With MB most likely providing greater regen than Solace in 6.1, why exactly would spec into it?

Talking about Evangelism 5, it's exactly the same tool for reaching it.
Also, maybe you should check PTR Notes - Mindbender thread in Priest subforum (can't post links ATM) in order to research your spec better

Except everything you've said is untrue. If you defensive Penance is going to overheal, it's certainly not better than offensive Penance, especially without the AA buff. You also shouldn't be avoiding offensive Penance even without the 2 piece. Go check every top Disc parse, and you'll see both usages of Penance. I wonder why that is, heh.

If my def Penance is going to overheal, my off Penance is certainly going to overheal aswell.
Not putting DPS into consideration, which of these two has a chance for bigger DA? Offensive? Doubt it.
AA buff will not change this.

Go check every top Disc parse, and you'll see both usages of Penance. I wonder why that is, heh.

~3-5 casts max, can be reasoned by a need for refreshing of your Evangelism stacks on the move (HF on CD / boss not in the range of HF, which is the case of Imperator, if you're kiting), doing DPS at the pull, etc. Thing's I'm doing myself aswell.
And yeah, go check #1 parses on Tectus and Ko'ragh, heh.

It actually is if you can maximize the upcoming AA buff.

How exactly is one extra stack of Evangelism going to maximize the upcoming AA buff even more, if you're already on 5 stacks?

Don't go over 5 stacks then. Which you can't and won't if you simply offensive penance x2 defensive penance x1.

I don't, on purpose. But you probably will with this. Where's your Solace?

Uh huh, thank you for telling me something I already know...years ago.

You're welcome!

[ceddya]

Talking about Evangelism 5, it's exactly the same tool for reaching it.
Also, maybe you should check PTR Notes - Mindbender thread in Priest subforum (can't post links ATM) in order to research your spec better

'Extrapolating from that, and correcting my mistake for not including initial attack, here's the mana return for the 20s mindbender assuming 1.5s base attack speed. This means MB breaks even with the raw mana gain from Solace with 12.5% haste'

You're welcome. Disc Priests should have no issue hitting that with BT and certainly not with PI.

If my def Penance is going to overheal, my off Penance is certainly going to overheal aswell.
Not putting DPS into consideration, which of these two has a chance for bigger DA? Offensive? Doubt it.

Both spells have % scaling, so DA doesn't change the result. If you cannot ensure that defensive Penance is not going to overheal when the AA buff is not active, you are mathematically better off using it offensively to generate 2 stacks of Evangelism.

~3-5 casts max, can be reasoned by a need for refreshing of your Evangelism stacks on the move (HF on CD / boss not in the range of HF, which is the case of Imperator, if you're kiting), doing DPS at the pull, etc. Thing's I'm doing myself aswell.
And yeah, go check #1 parses on Tectus and Ko'ragh, heh.

12 uses of Penance in a 4-min fight on Ko'ragh? That's not using it on CD.

Look at the overhealing values on that defensive Penance or the multiple Smite casts though, because it doesn't exactly disprove anything I've said - which is that defensive Penance should be used if you can minimize the overhealing on it.

How exactly is one extra stack of Evangelism going to maximize the upcoming AA buff even more, if you're already on 5 stacks?

Who the heck is advocating using it if you're already on 5 stacks?

Here's the reality you don't seem to understand: using HF when AA is active is an overall loss. It doesn't generate mana, it doesn't benefit from the AA buff and it heals for a pittance compared to your actual heals.

Even if you use defensive Penance twice when AA is active, that still leaves you with 3 stacks to generate. In that case, one offensive Penance and HF when the buf is over would set you up for 5x Evangelism easily.

Both uses of Penance have situations where they're better. Claiming that the defensive option is the only way to use it is just spreading misinformation.

[Deleted]

Disc Priests should have no issue hitting that with BT and certainly not with PI.

Yeah, because the one and only purpose of picking PI is to boost my Mindbender

Both uses of Penance have situations where they're better. Claiming that the defensive option is the only way to use it is just spreading misinformation.

Agreed with the first sentence. But I've never said that def Penance is the only way, maybe you should read my posts again. I've only suggested that that from healer PoV, and also considering 2pc, it's the smartest way HPS-wise.

[ceddya]

Yeah, because the one and only purpose of picking PI is to boost my Mindbender

Again, no one ever said that. You really need to learn to read.

Agreed with the first sentence. But I've never said that def Penance is the only way, maybe you should read my posts again. I've only suggested that that from healer PoV, and also considering 2pc, it's the smartest way HPS-wise.

Except that's not the case if your defensive Penance is going to overheal. There are plenty of instances where the focused and bigger ST heal from defensive Penance will overheal whereas the smaller and more spread out healing from offensive Penance won't.

Also, the value of the extra Evangelism stack from offensive Penance means that it more than makes up for the loss of healing and efficiency from not using it defensively, especially if you're able to maximize the next AA cast.

[PosPosPos]

I don't, on purpose. But you probably will with this. Where's your Solace?

This tells me you are simply not on the same page with everyone else. That is the rotation for 5 stack AA with 2pc + Mindbender, obviously there isn't Solace in it.

The Solace rotation is 3x defensive penance 2x solace or the other way round.

Point is, both Mindbender and Solace have their own ways to achieve 5 AA without going over, and without losing a significant opportunity cost.

You're welcome!

You're a piece of work, you know.

[Aparthia]

You do know that HF =/= Solace, right? With MB most likely providing greater regen than Solace in 6.1, why exactly would spec into it?

Most likely how?

Here's the regen table for mindbender in 6.1:

Haste	Attacks	Mana
0       14	    10.5
5       15	    11.25
12.5    16	    12
20      17	    12.75
27.5    18	    13.5
35      19	    14.25
42.5    20	    15
50      21	    15.75
57.5    22	    16.5
65      23	    17.25
72.5    24	    18
80      25	    18.75
87.5    26	    19.5

Solace is 18% mana per minute, 12% raw gained and 6% since you no longer have to pay the mana cost of HF. You'd need the equivalent of 72.5% constant haste for MB to be better.

[Deleted]

Again, no one ever said that. You really need to learn to read.

Disc Priests should have no issue hitting that with BT and certainly not with PI.

I expected better memory from an average mmo-c poster.

Except that's not the case if your defensive Penance is going to overheal. There are plenty of instances where the focused and bigger ST heal from defensive Penance will overheal whereas the smaller and more spread out healing from offensive Penance won't.

Except that's not the case during hardcore progression, there are plenty of instances where it's hard not to find target for ST Penance

Also, the value of the extra Evangelism stack from offensive Penance means that it more than makes up for the loss of healing and efficiency from not using it defensively, especially if you're able to maximize the next AA cast.

You still didn't answer me to one of my early questions. What do you mean by maximizing the next AA cast? Am I missing some kind of ceddya-exclusive ninja skill? Kappa

This tells me you are simply not on the same page with everyone else. That is the rotation for 5 stack AA with 2pc + Mindbender, obviously there isn't Solace in it.

I'm not the one who brought MB to this discussion. By saying HF in my earlier posts i meant Solace obviously. Sorry about this misunderstanding, it's just my occupational deformation

Point is, both Mindbender and Solace have their own ways to achieve 5 AA without going over, and without losing a significant opportunity cost.

While using Solace, you have to go over.

You're a piece of work, you know.

Wish you were the same!

[ceddya]

Most likely how?

Solace is 18% mana per minute, 12% raw gained and 6% since you no longer have to pay the mana cost of HF. You'd need the equivalent of 72.5% constant haste for MB to be better.

With the 2-piece bonus, how many Solace/HF casts will you actually be using? If you only need 0-2 HF/Solace casts every 30s depending on how good you are at micromanaging Penance's CD, the break even point becomes even more skewed in MB's favour, because Solace is essentially a wasted GCD when you should be optimizing your heal selection with the AA buff active.

Also, How many Disc Priests even use Solace perfectly 6 times a min? The margin of error for using Solace perfectly is much narrower than it is for MB. When discussing numbers, you should probably consider the practicalities involved.

I expected better memory from an average mmo-c poster.

Thanks for proving me right, you really do need to learn to read. No part of that quote even said that people specced into PI just for MB, but it did make the implication that having PI would make hitting the MB breakpoints much easier.

Except that's not the case during hardcore progression, there are plenty of instances where it's hard not to find target for ST Penance

Okay then, you say that optimal Penance usage involves using it defensively and on CD. Go ahead, find me a single log where that is the case and where defensive Penance has marginal overhealing.

There isn't a question that defensive Penance with low overhealing is the best option (notably when the AA buff is active), but there are also periods of low to zero raid damage when the defensive Penance option will have high overhealing, which makes offensive Penance the better choice in such cases and when the AA buff isn't active. Like I said, saying that defensive Penance is always the better way to use the spell is flat out misleading.

You still didn't answer me to one of my early questions. What do you mean by maximizing the next AA cast? Am I missing some kind of ceddya-exclusive ninja skill? Kappa

It's really simple - you simply just use your most effective heals when AA is up rather than wasting a GCD or two on low healing spells that don't benefit from AA nor confer any additional benefit.

[PosPosPos]

While using Solace, you have to go over.

Which is why you don't use Solace and use Mindbender instead with that specific rotation.

With Solace, you are essentially locked to using defensive Penance if you want to use it on CD and not go over the 5 AA cap.

[Deleted]

Thanks for proving me right, you really do need to learn to read. No part of that quote even said that people specced into PI just for MB, but it did make the implication that having PI would make hitting the MB breakpoints much easier.

But you were suggesting that. You can't really save PI for MB just like you can't hold your MB for next PI.

Okay then, you say that optimal Penance usage involves using it defensively and on CD. Go ahead, find me a single log where that is the case and where defensive Penance has marginal overhealing.

Don't worry, I'll handle them to you in less than 10 days, as soon as mythic BRF opens.

It's really simple - you simply use your most effective heals when AA is up rather than wasting a GCD or two on low healing spells that don't benefit from AA nor confer any additional benefit.

Your most effective heal with AA up is EAA-PoH, which you may cast anywhere between 1st and 15,5th second of buff (considering zero-haste 2,5 sec cast time).
Unless you're saving AA for very specific moments (which in mythic HM is the case of Tectus, Imperator and used to be at Brackenspore), I don't really think that 1 gcd is a big deal with 60% overall uptime of AA.