How is the "lack of control" in the balance rotation?

[Jmarsh56]

Is it extremely noticeable, does it make a big difference at all? Are there other things that are being given to you that allow you to have a little more control than you would have otherwise?

[Sylar Hao]

Only tested it on PTR with my level 90, so I can't really tell how it will be at level 100, but so far, I think I'll reroll from feral to balance. The rotation is challenging but smooth (much smoother than the actual Eclipse Bar, although in the PTR there's a lot of lag, so it can only get better). The new mechanic of Starsurge is also fun, adding more depth, and it is really interesting to have 2 damage spikes (one for lunar and one for solar) every cycle. Also the AoE is different depending on which eclipse you are, which makes it even more interesting.

The only thing I think I won't work is on a PvP environment. Starsurge is no longer instant when it procs, and relying on a bar that works on its own in a environment where you have to constantly react and move... I'm not sure...

[Bullettime]

Only tested it on PTR with my level 90, so I can't really tell how it will be at level 100, but so far, I think I'll reroll from feral to balance. The rotation is challenging but smooth (much smoother than the actual Eclipse Bar, although in the PTR there's a lot of lag, so it can only get better). The new mechanic of Starsurge is also fun, adding more depth, and it is really interesting to have 2 damage spikes (one for lunar and one for solar) every cycle. Also the AoE is different depending on which eclipse you are, which makes it even more interesting.

The only thing I think I won't work is on a PvP environment. Starsurge is no longer instant when it procs, and relying on a bar that works on its own in a environment where you have to constantly react and move... I'm not sure...

There isn't any depth if you looked at the theorycraft behind it and the exact points in which to use things like Starsurge. This is what people are complaining about. It appears to have complexity and depth for all of 20 minutes, at which point you realize that the spec could actually be played by a robot and that it basically won't change.

edit: It's similar to live, just with the skill cap removed, in that there's a minor learning curve on the timing but now there's no room to improve your play. Once you understand it, you've mastered it and you could play it in your sleep.

[Sylar Hao]

There isn't any depth if you looked at the theorycraft behind it and the exact points in which to use things like Starsurge. This is what people are complaining about. It appears to have complexity and depth for all of 20 minutes, at which point you realize that the spec could actually be played by a robot and that it basically won't change.

edit: It's similar to live, just with the skill cap removed, in that there's a minor learning curve on the timing but now there's no room to improve your play. Once you understand it, you've mastered it and you could play it in your sleep.

After testing it a little more and with less lag, I gotta agree with you. Once you get it right you can do it mechanically without watching the screen at all, the bar cycling on its own is very interesting in my opinion because it's something you don't control, somewhat like a not-so-random-RNG, but the rest of the mechanics have no depth whatsoever, quite repeting.

[xtramuscle]

After testing it a little more and with less lag, I gotta agree with you. Once you get it right you can do it mechanically without watching the screen at all, the bar cycling on its own is very interesting in my opinion because it's something you don't control, somewhat like a not-so-random-RNG, but the rest of the mechanics have no depth whatsoever, quite repeting.

Now do that on 2-3 targets at once with all the movement engaging mechanics of a raid boss. Doing dps is simple, but doing the best dps and not dying will be quite difficult.

[Razhiel]

Now do that on 2-3 targets at once with all the movement engaging mechanics of a raid boss. Doing dps is simple, but doing the best dps and not dying will be quite difficult.

Gotta agree here.

I've been testing (in LFR though, but im pretending super hard that everything does 10x more dmg and is mega-bad), but when you factor in movement, boss mechanics and more targets the spec becomes more fun to play.

Trying to do the best dps possible, and squeezing out the most out of your "out-of-control" Eclipse bar can give you a headache though - especially with Euphoria

[sayne9]

Now do that on 2-3 targets at once with all the movement engaging mechanics of a raid boss. Doing dps is simple, but doing the best dps and not dying will be quite difficult.

Yep. Any spec can be nailed down in 10-20 minutes on a target dummy because it is easy to nail down a spec when you only have to worry about single target while standing still and staring at your bars/resources.

[Keeft]

Starsurge is no longer instant when it procs..

Starsurge is always instant instead, it's a perk you get when you level. So you can run and cast Starsurge x3. Ontop of that you get something called Empowered Moonkinform, recently nerfed but it makes attacks against you have a chance to give you no casttime on your next spell, like warlocks Incinerate procc. It only works on damage spells now tho, did use to work on healing spells to.

[Vanos27]

"classes become harder when in action with multiple targets"

Noooo?! Really?!

Balance is laughably easy right now. Completely boring and apparently scales like crap currently.

Every other spec is more engaging when beating on a target dummy and even more so when in real combat.

I shutter to think how horribly slow the spec will play when I lose my legendary meta gem...

Also, yay another expac dotting people up in pvp and hoping for SS procs! I mean give me a break Blizzard...

[Deleted]

"classes become harder when in action with multiple targets"

Noooo?! Really?!

Balance is laughably easy right now. Completely boring and apparently scales like crap currently.

Every other spec is more engaging when beating on a target dummy and even more so when in real combat.

I shutter to think how horribly slow the spec will play when I lose my legendary meta gem...

Also, yay another expac dotting people up in pvp and hoping for SS procs! I mean give me a break Blizzard...

Not sure if I should even take this comment seriously. Have you even tried in on a proper boss fight, e.g. Highmaul Mythic? Balance is in the top when it comes to sustainable single- and multi-target DPS. And saying that every other spec is more engaging than Balance while testing on a Target Dummy is simply being ignorant. This game - as stated by almost any and every game developer - is not designed with Target Dummies as a focal point.

The spec might seem slow when you're just hammering away on a Target Dummy, but the reality is far from that. Several other factors should be considered when trying to evaluate a spec. Whether it be PVE or PVP, you won't likely be facing the same scenario as when you're simply testing on a Target Dummy. If you honestly find it that slow, why not try out Euphoria? This is perhaps my favourite L100 Talent on the Beta right now. Furthermore, with the Tier 17 Bonuses we're likely too see go live, Wrath and Starfire will be cast much faster (25% if I remember correctly at the top of my head). Combine that with Euphoria and you're a laser powered chicken once again.

And while we've surely all gotten used to having that lovely haste bonus from our Meta gem, once again it must be emphasized that specs have not been designed around buffs like that. I honestly found it rather silly to have such haste increase with +60% uptime.

Lastly, what you're saying about spamming DoTs in order to gain Shooting Stars procs is poorly substantiated. Sure, DoTing up 20 mobs or players is one way to play; fortunately, you will gain very little from doing so. Starsurge is a powerful instant ability, but in essence, it's more important that it empowers your Starfires and Wraths by quite a substantial amount.

While I agree that it may seem lackluster on the PvP side, bear in mind that it is difficult to design class mechanics that work well in both environments. Obviously it is a lot easier to design for PvE purposes as less mechanics (other classes) intertwine.

To get back to the OP: I found that there is little "lack of control" with the new sine wave Eclipse mechanic. If you properly track your buffs and Eclipse progress, you're pretty much set. With Euphoria, I'm seeing a very small "down-time" (we can barely argue that we even have down-time now) as Eclipse progresses back and forth with double the speed. Thus you won't feel that many of your Empowered Starfires and/or Wraths are being "wasted" in the low-Eclipse energy zone.

[Hildrande]

Well Feral is rather complex, they say, so if one of our specs can be facerolled, it adds diversity to the class :-P

[Venteus]

PvP wise, we're glass-cannons. We're extremely powerful, SS-procs are borderline OP damage and the instant cast procs from empowered moonkin are great while taking damage.

However, defensive-wise we're absolute garbage. Without healers we're intensely vulnerable.

[xtramuscle]

Everyone is stay pvp and starsurge, anything from 3s and up starfall will do more damage. In BGs we're the aff/destro lock there to blanket pure pressure, let other classes worry about KBs - just get EVERYTHING low. (and with new starfall and sunfire we're GREAT at that).

[Deleted]

What would you guys think if astral communion was reworked to be an instant cast, 1-2 minute cooldown, which automatically moves your bar position to the solar peak. Then, depending on fight, glyph of solstice may prove useful if you want to have on demand starfall (sunfall). Sounds good in theory to me, would need testing to see how it feels.

But what I namely don't like about current AC is that it can take too long to position the bar where you want to. If you just left solar and a bunch of adds are coming which beg for sunfire, then you have to accelerate all the way to moon then and back to solar. Non-euphoria that would take 20 seconds / 4 = 5 seconds of channeling AC

[earthwormjim]

What would you guys think if astral communion was reworked to be an instant cast, 1-2 minute cooldown, which automatically moves your bar position to the solar peak. Then, depending on fight, glyph of solstice may prove useful if you want to have on demand starfall (sunfall). Sounds good in theory to me, would need testing to see how it feels.

But what I namely don't like about current AC is that it can take too long to position the bar where you want to. If you just left solar and a bunch of adds are coming which beg for sunfire, then you have to accelerate all the way to moon then and back to solar. Non-euphoria that would take 20 seconds / 4 = 5 seconds of channeling AC

That would be extremely broken and would never be implemented. Our dps is already very high, we do not need damage buffs, we just need survivability added back in.

[Cyous]

That would be extremely broken and would never be implemented. Our dps is already very high, we do not need damage buffs, we just need survivability added back in.

30sec Barkskin would be nice, considering we lost our main source of healing -- Emp. Moonkin.

[Deleted]

That would be extremely broken and would never be implemented. Our dps is already very high, we do not need damage buffs, we just need survivability added back in.

Are you for real? What does it have to do with dps? Instead of channeling AC for a couple of seconds (up to 5), you instead have an instant cast that puts you into solar no matter what. How the hell is that in any way breaking the dps? For sure it can be tuned, in a dozen of ways even. It can have a longer cooldown, or it can put you in the middle of the bar starting towards solar (since putting you at solar peak starting towards lunar sounds so OP to you). The point would be to have sunfire available.

If the damage of moonkins is high, then that is a different problem with a different solution. This would solely be a quality of change in my eyes (a pretty big one too), pls don't mix the two up. If we can already control the bar in a weird way, this would only make it so that we won't have to AC for 5 seconds every other try just because the fight didn't line up with our bar. If you prefer to channel AC for several seconds, I don't know what to say really. But I assure you, that AC offers 0 dps for the duration of the channel, and any class can do better than that aoe wise, so I really don't see what's so OP about it. Single target wise this wouldn't offer anything, it would be a waste of a global cooldown.

Sometimes I wonder if I should post on these forums again, since some of you really enjoy killing any suggestion without providing any rational thoughts to back it up...

[Cyous]

Are you for real? What does it have to do with dps? Instead of channeling AC for a couple of seconds (up to 5), you instead have an instant cast that puts you into solar no matter what. How the hell is that in any way breaking the dps? For sure it can be tuned, in a dozen of ways even. It can have a longer cooldown, or it can put you in the middle of the bar starting towards solar (since putting you at solar peak starting towards lunar sounds so OP to you). The point would be to have sunfire available.

If the damage of moonkins is high, then that is a different problem with a different solution. This would solely be a quality of change in my eyes (a pretty big one too), pls don't mix the two up. If we can already control the bar in a weird way, this would only make it so that we won't have to AC for 5 seconds every other try just because the fight didn't line up with our bar. If you prefer to channel AC for several seconds, I don't know what to say really. But I assure you, that AC offers 0 dps for the duration of the channel, and any class can do better than that aoe wise, so I really don't see what's so OP about it. Single target wise this wouldn't offer anything, it would be a waste of a global cooldown.

Sometimes I wonder if I should post on these forums again, since some of you really enjoy killing any suggestion without providing any rational thoughts to back it up...

It's the nature of MMO-C forums; it's not necessarily a friendly place.

The channel is an opportunity cost -- less damage now for more damage later. It does promote a DPS increase in single-target in some cases. A suggestion to increase the cost it would be to consume a charge of Shooting Stars and make it a 3sec "for spam protection" cooldown.

Moonkin damage feels cheated. Lots of damage for minimal effort. It's not very fun nor fair.

[Pippilongear]

Moonkin damage feels cheated. Lots of damage for minimal effort. It's not very fun nor fair.

Agree with this sentiment but I have to caveat it and say that is mostly a single-target patchwerk type feel. After playing around with the new eclipse system with multiple targets and boss fight mechanics/movement it is not as bad as it feels on a testing dummy. In spite of that, I wish that the moonkin dps "rotation" had more choice.

The *only* place where I feel that I have a choice is whether to use Starfall or Starsurge depending on the # of targets.

Here is my quick list of ability usage by category:

Skillful Choice of When to Cast:
Starfall
DPS CDs (Inc/Trees)
Celestial Alignment
Astral Communion (*possibly*)

No Real Choice of When to Cast:
Moonfire
Sunfire
Starfire
Wrath
Starsurge (yes it might vary slightly based on random procs but not by much)
Stellar Flare

Am I the only one that is looking at moonkin damage currently and thinking "sure we do nice damage now but what happens if we get nerfed or just scale poorly? Are we going to be left with a playstyle that is both low damage AND not very engaging?"

[Vanos27]

Not sure if I should even take this comment seriously. Have you even tried in on a proper boss fight, e.g. Highmaul Mythic? Balance is in the top when it comes to sustainable single- and multi-target DPS. And saying that every other spec is more engaging than Balance while testing on a Target Dummy is simply being ignorant. This game - as stated by almost any and every game developer - is not designed with Target Dummies as a focal point.

The spec might seem slow when you're just hammering away on a Target Dummy, but the reality is far from that. Several other factors should be considered when trying to evaluate a spec. Whether it be PVE or PVP, you won't likely be facing the same scenario as when you're simply testing on a Target Dummy. If you honestly find it that slow, why not try out Euphoria? This is perhaps my favourite L100 Talent on the Beta right now. Furthermore, with the Tier 17 Bonuses we're likely too see go live, Wrath and Starfire will be cast much faster (25% if I remember correctly at the top of my head). Combine that with Euphoria and you're a laser powered chicken once again.

And while we've surely all gotten used to having that lovely haste bonus from our Meta gem, once again it must be emphasized that specs have not been designed around buffs like that. I honestly found it rather silly to have such haste increase with +60% uptime.

Lastly, what you're saying about spamming DoTs in order to gain Shooting Stars procs is poorly substantiated. Sure, DoTing up 20 mobs or players is one way to play; fortunately, you will gain very little from doing so. Starsurge is a powerful instant ability, but in essence, it's more important that it empowers your Starfires and Wraths by quite a substantial amount.

While I agree that it may seem lackluster on the PvP side, bear in mind that it is difficult to design class mechanics that work well in both environments. Obviously it is a lot easier to design for PvE purposes as less mechanics (other classes) intertwine.

To get back to the OP: I found that there is little "lack of control" with the new sine wave Eclipse mechanic. If you properly track your buffs and Eclipse progress, you're pretty much set. With Euphoria, I'm seeing a very small "down-time" (we can barely argue that we even have down-time now) as Eclipse progresses back and forth with double the speed. Thus you won't feel that many of your Empowered Starfires and/or Wraths are being "wasted" in the low-Eclipse energy zone.

I think you missed the part where I said "even more so when in actual combat" so yes I have tried it on boss fights, raid, dungeons and pvp. All of which led to an extremely worse experience than live for me.

And yes I know classes weren't designed with the gems in mind, I merely mentioned it due to how slow the spec feels which will be even worse without the proc.

Lastly, in pvp, mainly arena's, we'll be force yet again to run around while being beaten on hoping for instant SS procs, DoTs and SF to kill our targets. Any decent player won't let us cast and the long cast times make it easy to silence and interrupt us.

I've been playing this spec since late Burning Crusade, I know exactly how it plays and how it will play with changes Blzzard does to it. It's literally the only spec I play that I enjoy now.

I'm frantically trying out all the other specs in hopes I'll find something else to replace my Druid because I'm just not finding it fun anymore, every single spec to be honest, and that's just sad after 8ish years of playing the class.

Also, having good dps is no excuse for having a boring spec.