Warlock Specs for WoD

[Nhiosis]

Well ,mainly the people whining around are more worried about pvp than boss fights tbf.

The loss of fel flame hurts that department tremendously more than others.

Also, I am not whining so you don't have to group me with the ones whining, I'm simply saying your statements are too bashful to those who are trying to show their concerns about some aspects.

Besides I already told you not to bring up conflag, I did consider it, and this conversation seems to be drifting towards destro strangely.

Just think of it this way, an affliction lock that has his dots up and does not possess the KJC talent , would be doing no dmg while moving period, if you consider refreshing a dot while moving on equal grounds as dealing direct dmg then I think you are considering this too much from the pve stand point.

A destro lock with conflag charges on cd has nothing to cast on the move without KJC, if you consider RoF as actual dmg instead of a direct damage spell then I think I'm starting to understand what's wrong with your post.

Demo stands as the better spec in that regard because after some time spend building up fury while being immobile ( similar to destro ), they can dish out dmg while in meta on the move and possess superior mobility tools, I think you are aware of that since you've posted it.

And the overall point is, we have lost tools in the regards of mobility and damage dealing, no one is stating we want to have an optimal rotation of dmg in pve while moving, neither should the opposite be not having anything, why must we shift between extremes? other classes still retain some of that aspect , heck some classes possess even more of that aspect, and you try to tell us to adapt ? ofc we'll have to adapt but you are missing the point here.

what I'm trying to say is, I do not mind the changes as long as there are no imbalances between casters in regards to how easy someone can spam dmg while moving in pvp situations, I don't want to get into the whole "omg locks were OP since forever so it's better that they get nerfed hard now " , why the extremes? I do not want locks to be OP neither do I want them to be shit.

the loss of Felflame hurt more than you think, especially in pvp, as affliction you cannot break totems with anything but haunt, would you really use haunt to break a totem ? unless u want to use a wand or have to rely on pet again like we used to before, but that technique seems outdated since totems need to be removed asap in most cases and wasting several seconds might make you miss the moment of opportunity you were trying to achieve.

And how do you remove a reflect as affliction ? you dot your self? you could channel sure, but lets say you are destruction how do you remove a reflect? you conflag yourself? what a waste of cd tbh , or you try casting incinerate at point blank range :|

The removal of felflame not only cripples our ability to throw some instant dmg while moving , it also cripples some of the most basic things almost all other casters can do.

And to add on top of that, some classes are GAINING instant spells in place of their usual casting tools, which is strange considering it should've been something all casters shared again( hard casting that is ).

agree with all of this, fel flame loss just cripples the entire class in pvp without some sort of replacement spell. Period.

I'll even go so far as to say that it will come back after a few weeks / months due to massive decline in warlocks being played on the ladders.

It's just not fun at this point.

[Baconeggcheese]

According to my guildy who bothers to pvp casters can absolutely hard cast in melees faces frequently.

The removal of the majority of blanket silences has a huge effect on players ability to lock you down.

[Shamanegans]

Well ,mainly the people whining around are more worried about pvp than boss fights tbf.

The loss of fel flame hurts that department tremendously more than others.

Also, I am not whining so you don't have to group me with the ones whining, I'm simply saying your statements are too bashful to those who are trying to show their concerns about some aspects.

Besides I already told you not to bring up conflag, I did consider it, and this conversation seems to be drifting towards destro strangely.

Why not bring up conflag? it is relevant to what is being discussed. Sorry I don't like sugar coating the pill, but everywhere you look is people saying how the warlock is ruined, they will reroll etc, just bored of the same crap in every thread.

Just think of it this way, an affliction lock that has his dots up and does not possess the KJC talent , would be doing no dmg while moving period, if you consider refreshing a dot while moving on equal grounds as dealing direct dmg then I think you are considering this too much from the pve stand point.

how will they not? you do realize they will still have DoTs ticking > Use portal/demon Gate to move fast > start casting again. It's really not that hard...

A destro lock with conflag charges on cd has nothing to cast on the move without KJC, if you consider RoF as actual dmg instead of a direct damage spell then I think I'm starting to understand what's wrong with your post.

Well what is better? you decide, no damage or a small bit of damage on the move? come on, it's better than nothing ... Time your Conflag with it and you are still doing a nice bit of damage on the go not to mention using your movement talents like mentioned above.

Demo stands as the better spec in that regard because after some time spend building up fury while being immobile ( similar to destro ), they can dish out dmg while in meta on the move and possess superior mobility tools, I think you are aware of that since you've posted it.

I am and I said why Demo is being made the best spec, due to it's low rep in MoP.

And the overall point is, we have lost tools in the regards of mobility and damage dealing, no one is stating we want to have an optimal rotation of dmg in pve while moving, neither should the opposite be not having anything, why must we shift between extremes? other classes still retain some of that aspect , heck some classes possess even more of that aspect, and you try to tell us to adapt ? ofc we'll have to adapt but you are missing the point here.

And we still retain some of it too, how can't you see this? I even posted what moves we have, the only thing we really lost was Fel Flame, it's not the end of the damn world.

what I'm trying to say is, I do not mind the changes as long as there are no imbalances between casters in regards to how easy someone can spam dmg while moving in pvp situations, I don't want to get into the whole "omg locks were OP since forever so it's better that they get nerfed hard now " , why the extremes? I do not want locks to be OP neither do I want them to be shit.

Same and from what i've seen on beta they are far from shit, the rotations are boring sure, I won't deny that fact but they are no where near shit with the changes. Just don't see how people think that.

the loss of Felflame hurt more than you think, especially in pvp, as affliction you cannot break totems with anything but haunt, would you really use haunt to break a totem ? unless u want to use a wand or have to rely on pet again like we used to before, but that technique seems outdated since totems need to be removed asap in most cases and wasting several seconds might make you miss the moment of opportunity you were trying to achieve.

Again that is a learning curve we will need to adapt to. Stops everyone just going straight for sacrifice grimoire.

And how do you remove a reflect as affliction ? you dot your self? you could channel sure, but lets say you are destruction how do you remove a reflect? you conflag yourself? what a waste of cd tbh , or you try casting incinerate at point blank range :|

Remove reflect as afflic, Drain life... Easy, come on man you don't need to think hard to do that since they are pushing that on Afflic so much this xpac. As destro Imo then get dispelled? you could incinerate, conflag (not ideal but still works), or what are your team mates doing they might be able to do it ...

The removal of felflame not only cripples our ability to throw some instant dmg while moving , it also cripples some of the most basic things almost all other casters can do.

Again I don't see it like that tbh, we still have plenty to deal with stuff imo.

And to add on top of that, some classes are GAINING instant spells in place of their usual casting tools, which is strange considering it should've been something all casters shared again( hard casting that is ).

SOME classes, not all, SOME, if they give everyone the same toys then all classes would be the same, not a fan tbh.

Again though, people see it as the sky falling, I personally think they are being over dramatic about it all.

[Baconeggcheese]

Again... people think its still MoP pvp and we just lost fel flame and KJC... which is far far far from the truth.

People don't have blanket silences anymore outside of very specific cases. Think about that for a second. That isn't the only thing that's changed...

I don't need to write an essay sized post for people to hopefully look into it more after understanding that.

[Shamanegans]

Again... people think its still MoP pvp and we just lost fel flame and KJC... which is far far far from the truth.

People don't have blanket silences anymore outside of very specific cases. Think about that for a second. That isn't the only thing that's changed...

I don't need to write an essay sized post for people to hopefully look into it more after understanding that.

Exactly, I know we lost more than those two but we are also not as crap as people are making out, apparently warlocks are completely ruined and no other class is losing anything and gaining more but that's just not true, People just got comfortable being OP I guess. Ah well.

[Holtzmann]

Exactly, I know we lost more than those two but we are also not as crap as people are making out, apparently warlocks are completely ruined and no other class is losing anything and gaining more but that's just not true, People just got comfortable being OP I guess. Ah well.

I had a chuckle when I peeked at the Mage and Priest forums and saw some people there saying that they're going to re-roll Warlocks because "locks are so good in the beta".

Everybody's game got changed, but it seems the grass is still always greener on the other side.

[wholol]

@whysper ( don't want to quote super long post), you always try to counter my argument with "locks are not shit " , did I say they were shit ? locks lost some of their abilities from mist but I never said they might not be competitive, I simply stated how they've lost tools in comparison to other casters.

Locks are boring I agree, they are still playable of course,yet dull, but don't get my opinions mixed with whatever ideal you are trying to bash because I am not saying locks are unplayable at all and the posts were never about damage numbers or what not.

This is how I see the actual conversation going : I give you a proper answer regarding locks having lost mobility -> you turn it into a " lol L2P locks aren't shit" conversation, when I did not say lock's were going to be shit, just boring and having to do a lot more things than other classes in order to cope with some things ( like the reflect/ totem idea).

Anyways I do not wish to get into a epeen fight with you tbh, if you do not have any viable arguments proving that locks have not lost more damage on the move than other casters then I consider our conversation over.

And to get this whole charade over with, locks will need to adapt obviously but stating that people who have gotten too used to MOP playstyle can't cope with the changes and whine a lot is an overstatement tbh.

I've been playing lock since the beginning of the game, when conflag was a 20 yard range 1.5 sec cast that required and consumed immolate, do you even remember that ? you might if you played during that time, but let's not start pointing fingers at people and stating it's an l2p issue when it could very well backfire at you.



Anyways, let's be done with this entire off topic debate about unnecessary details , let's stick to the main topic of the thread, if you wish to continue this discussion in a pvp related pov, you are more than welcome to move it to the pvp beta discussion thread that I started, and if you wish to continue this conversation into a pve direction , there are several threads just for that.

[Shamanegans]

@whysper ( don't want to quote super long post), you always try to counter my argument with "locks are not shit " , did I say they were shit ? locks lost some of their abilities from mist but I never said they might not be competitive, I simply stated how they've lost tools in comparison to other casters.

Locks are boring I agree, they are still playable of course,yet dull, but don't get my opinions mixed with whatever ideal you are trying to bash because I am not saying locks are unplayable at all and the posts were never about damage numbers or what not.

This is how I see the actual conversation going : I give you a proper answer regarding locks having lost mobility -> you turn it into a " lol L2P locks aren't shit" conversation, when I did not say lock's were going to be shit, just boring and having to do a lot more things than other classes in order to cope with some things ( like the reflect/ totem idea).

Anyways I do not wish to get into a epeen fight with you tbh, if you do not have any viable arguments proving that locks have not lost more damage on the move than other casters then I consider our conversation over.

And to get this whole charade over with, locks will need to adapt obviously but stating that people who have gotten too used to MOP playstyle can't cope with the changes and whine a lot is an overstatement tbh.

I've been playing lock since the beginning of the game, when conflag was a 20 yard range 1.5 sec cast that required and consumed immolate, do you even remember that ? you might if you played during that time, but let's not start pointing fingers at people and stating it's an l2p issue when it could very well backfire at you.

Never once said it was a L2P issue at all, I am just saying people refuse to see what other spells they have and giving examples of how they can still do that role. Not once did I ever say "oh you're terrible L2P your lock". Please don't read between the lines of what I write, I write what I mean, nothing hidden in it.

I also never said you said locks were shit. I was just stating what others have said, saying they have become unplayable, they are ruined, they are terrible etc. When that is simply just not true, they are not OP anymore and they are not shit, they are at a good middle ground just now.

Sure they got used to a playstyle, ofc they have, they played it for a year, but the fact that everyone is in uproar over quite a little thing is baffling. Even when they fully know that locks would get toned down from what they were.

Anyways, let's be done with this entire off topic debate about unnecessary details , let's stick to the main topic of the thread, if you wish to continue this discussion in a pvp related pov, you are more than welcome to move it to the pvp beta discussion thread that I started, and if you wish to continue this conversation into a pve direction , there are several threads just for that.

I agree, just sick of seeing people posting so much hate on locks when it really isn't needed at all.

[Shamran]

First of all, you're constantly missing the point of this mobility discussion. It’s hard to deduce whether or not you're doing so on purpose, or if you just don't get it. However, considering your argumentation has so many obvious discrepancies, I'm going to assume the former. You're contradicting yourself, going back on statements you made previously to warp whatever you're saying at any given time into something that makes sense. It doesn't.

As an example:

First you make remarks like these:

the only thing we really lost was Fel Flame, it's not the end of the damn world.

The only thing they are taking away in WoD is Fel Flame.

we lost ONE spell, ONE and look at the crying that is going on.

And when somebody point out the glaring misunderstanding inherent in those statements, you say:

Exactly, I know we lost more than those two but we are also not as crap as people are making out

Which one is it - do you know we lost more than Fel Flame, or don't you?

The overall point of the mobility discussion
I realize this thread started out as a question about specs, but you quickly brought it in another direction claiming that every caster was made out to be a stationary turret:

Melee uptime needs looked at too, since they made every caster a stationary turret.

And that’s what the mobility discussion, in essence, is about. Is every caster now a stationary turret? Has every caster class had their options to cast while moving reduced? And by extension, are these quotes from Blizzard then true:

“In Warlords of Draenor, we're pulling back on the ability for many casters to deal damage while moving, and that includes Elemental”.

“We've reduced the ability for ranged damage dealers to deal damage while moving in Warlords”.

Well, you certainly seem to think so:

The only class that can still free cast on the move is the Hunter, the rest need to stand and cast alot of the time. Stop making out the sky is falling when it's not.

The person I replied to said every class but warlocks got more stuff to cast on the move, when they clearly never.

Every class used to have more, They are reducing abilities across the board for every class not just warlocks.

I honestly don't see where you are getting the fact most classes can cast on the move now, without the use of a CD.

They are getting it from looking at the abilities of the different caster classes. As did I and wrote a evaluation of them which I also referred you to. However, it seems it didn't quite take. So instead of simply referring you to that post one more time, let’s instead sum it up without all those pesky numbers and facts getting in the way.

Please remember, the mobility discussion has never been about carrying out a perfect rotation on the move. It’s about a holistic view on what cast-while-moving options each caster class has at their disposal – worthwhile buttons to push while moving – and whether or not all casters have had those options reduced going into WoD. And as stated a number of times, this has to do with what you’re actively able to do (push) while moving. As such, passive damage sources like Shaman Totems, Warlock and Frost Mage Pets, Shadow Priest Apparitions, Druid Trees etc. aren’t accounted for here, nor in the original evaluation I wrote.

Let’s go, then:

Shadow Priests have 1 instant cast spell they can cast at any time on as many targets as they desire. Shadow Word: Pain. 1 instant cast spell they can cast when off CD. Mind Blast. And 4 other instant casts they can use if procs and conditions allow. Devouring Plague, Mind Spike, Cascade/Divine Star/Halo or Shadow Word: Death.

They have not had anything removed in terms of dealing damage while moving. They have had instant Mind Blast added. Overall, an improvement of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re wrong about Shadow Priests. Something that’s also quite clearly demonstrated here:

It wasn't about not having anything to cast, he was talking about casting on the move, which shadow can't really do.

Balance Druids have 1 instant cast spell they can cast at any time on as many targets as they desire. Moonfire/Sunfire. 1 single target spell they can use whenever they have charges (up to 3) generated by Moonfire/Sunfire tics. Starsurge. 1 AoE spell they can use whenever they have charges. Starfall.

They have not had anything removed in terms of dealing damage while moving. They have had instant Starsurges added. Also, Starfall now hits all targets, and not just two. Overall, an improvement of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re also wrong about Balance Druids.

Frost Mages have 1 instant cast spell they can cast at any time on as many targets as they like. Ice Lance. 4 spells they can cast when their cooldown is up. Cone of Cold, Ice Nova, Comet Storm, Water Jet. 1 spell they can cast when procs allow. Frostfire Bolt. Ice Floes optional.

They have had Fire Blast and the PoM talent removed, but Ice Lance damage buffed to compensate. They have had Water Jet, Ice Nova and Comet Storm added. Also, they can now have 2 charges of instant Frostfire Bolts instead of just one. Overall, an improvement of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re also wrong about Frost Mages.

Fire Mages have 1 instant cast spell usable at all times on as many targets as they desire. Living Bomb. 1 castable spell usable at all times. Scorch. 3 instant cast spells with cooldowns. Inferno Blast, Meteor and Combustion. 1 instant cast spell they can cast when procs allow. Pyroblast. Ice Floes optional.

They have had the PoM talent removed, but they have had Meteor added. Also, Living Bomb can now be cast on as many targets as they like, instead of just 3 targets. Overall, an improvement of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re also wrong about Fire Mages.

Arcane Mages have 1 instant cast spell usable at all times, dealing single and AoE target damage. Nether Tempest. 1 instant cast conditioned by charges and a 3 second cooldown. Arcane Barrage. 1 instant AoE spell conditioned by range. Arcane Explosion. 1 instant cast spell conditioned by cooldown. Arcane Orb. Ice Floes optional.

They have not had anything removed in terms of dealing damage while moving. They have had Arcane Orb added, and PoM made baseline. Overall, an improvement of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re also wrong about Arcane Mages.

Elemental Shamans have 1 instant cast spell with a cooldown. Frost/Earth/Flame Shock. (there was talk about Frost Shock on a separate cooldown, but I’ve also seen talk about that change being reverted). 1 instant cast spell conditioned by procs. Lava Surge. Spiritwalker's Grace baseline.

They have had running Lightning Bolt removed. They have had the damage component taken out of Unleashed Flame. Nothing has been added. Overall, a downgrade of their damage-while-moving options.

So, you’re actually right about Elemental Shamans – which was also the conclusion of the evaluation.

Affliction Warlocks have 2 instant casts that can be applied at any time on as many targets as they desire. Corruption and Agony. 1 instant cast conditioned by generating shards. Unstable Affliction. KJC optional.

They have had Fel Flame and running Malefic Grasp removed. Nothing has been added. Overall, a downgrade of their damage-while-moving options.

Demonology Warlocks have 1 instant cast usable whenever and on as many targets as they desire. Corruption (Doom in Meta). 1 Instant cast spell conditioned by cooldown. HoG/CW. 1 instant cast spell conditioned by stance. ToC. 1 instant cast spell conditioned by range. Hellfire. KJC optional.

They have had Fel Flame and running Shadow Bolts removed. Nothing has been added. I’ll grant you that Demo Warlocks look decent in terms of movement, but overall, a downgrade of their damage-while-moving options.

Destruction Warlocks have 1 instant AoE spell, effectively conditioned by a 6 sec cooldown (since it doesn’t stack on the same targets). Rain of Fire. 1 instant single target spell also conditioned by cooldown. Conflagrate. 1 instant single target conditioned by embers and target health. Shadowburn. KJC optional.

They have had Fel Flame, Running Incinerates and Backlash removed. Nothing has been added. Overall, a downgrade of their damage-while-moving options.

Since the point was to compare Warlocks to other casters, I obviously won’t comment on whether or not you’re wrong about Warlocks. To summarize, you’re just plain wrong which, considering the above walkthrough and the original evaluation, is also painfully demonstrated here:

No they never, Shadow Priests need to stand still (unless they get procs), Mages also need to stand still (unless they take Ice Floes), We need to stand still (unless during KJC), Shamans also (unless they use Spirit Walkers Grace), Druids need to cast (unless they get procs) and healers also need to stand and cast now too.

We get talents that let us cast on the move just like most other classes, Warlocks are in a good position tbh

No. Just no, dude. I mean, come on... When you make remarks like "Mages need to stand still unless they take Ice Floes", how can you expect anyone to take what you say seriously? Shadow Priests: Options improved. Mages: Really? Shamans: Yup, as pointed out. Druids: Also, options improved.

There is no nerf of damage-on-the-move options across the board. Not every caster is being made into a stationary turret. It’s just Shamans and Warlocks, and especially destruction Warlocks. And KJC does little to change that; there certainly isn't much competition in that tier.

Also, when you make statements like below, it only serves to decrease the validity of everything else you’re trying to get across:

save Conflagrate for movement phases

if you keep the conflag x2 for use on the move then Destro actually has more to use than the other specs.

Asking a Destruction Warlock to purposefully save Conflagrate for the off chance he has to move is like asking an Elemental Shaman not to refresh Flame Shock or cast a fully stacked Earth Shock because he might need it for movement. That’s the point of spells like Shadow Word: Pain, Moonfire/Sunfire, Ice Lance, Arcane Explosion, Nether Tempest, Scorch, Living Bomb, Corruption – and what Fel Flame used to be (is on live): A spammable spell that, as such, is always available to the caster *when* movement is necessary.

I get that you’re trying to reinforce your points by attempting to make discussions like these out to be whining and a wish to always be top of the meter. That’s not the case, however. The case is people like you. People who arbitrarily peddle whatever rhetoric Blizzard's trying to pass off as fact without actually taking the time to figure out if they’re right.

So, to quote Jessicka's response to your remark:

Every class used to have more, They are reducing abilities across the board for every class not just warlocks. Stop living in the past and look to how you can play the class when it changes. Adapt.

Please stop lying.

[Deleted]

Why not bring up conflag? it is relevant to what is being discussed. Sorry I don't like sugar coating the pill, but everywhere you look is people saying how the warlock is ruined, they will reroll etc, just bored of the same crap in every thread.

Why would you ever delay using your Conflagration charges (thus losing DPS) in order to have them ready for the next movement phase? It's idioticto gimp your DPS just to have something to cast on the move. Hence the irrelevance of Conflagration in this discussion. In the meantime, having one spell dedicated solely to movement phases, with very low damage & good utility, seems a better design than what you imply.

[Nhiosis]

Shamran, that post was epic, that should be reworded and sent to blizzard as well. Sums it all up perfectly.

[Shamran]

It has. Believe it or not, this is actually an abridged version of a more comprehensive evaluation I wrote a while back. It's been posted on both the EU and US fora. Here and here.

Nothing will come of it, of course. We're too far gone in beta for anything revolutionary - like a Fel Flame reversion - to happen. Even a blue post telling us to shut it and get on with it looks unlikely. However, accepting that fact does not necessarily include sitting idly by while other users of this fine forum spread textual manure about how everyone's damage-while-moving options are being nerfed when that's so obviously not the case.

[icedlight]

Shamran,

In the voice of "Crush" (from Finding Nemo):

"That was freaking awesome dude!"

[DeadmanWalking]

So what is going to be the warlock go to spec for raiding in the opening of Draenor? I started mop with Demonology and was keeping up with the destruction spec until they nerfed it midway through ToT and I had to change spec to destruction because I was doing less damage than people with 20 ilevels lower gear than me. I was constantly being told not to do demonology even though I was putting out top dps in my groups because destruction was the go to raid spec.

So what is the consensus of top warlock raiding spec because I am not going to quit playing warlock even if we are not on the top of the dps charts.

[cabana]

As of 10/3/14 Demo and Destro.

[Kan]

Shamran brought to text what everyone here was trying to get across to those that simply couldnt understand what locks are asking for. thank you.
People like whysper blatantly ignoring what we're asking to be considered arent helping us to be understood.. we're asking for something is not gamebreaking and has almost never been complained about during its duration in mop. why so against it?

[Durantye]

There is no reason what so ever to choose a spec to learn, you should learn all of the specs, 5.1 affliction was strong demo had its moment, 5.2 destro was the starter spec, aff the mid level spec, demo the high lvl spec (in my opinion the best tier for warlocks as far as balance goes except for the affliction bug), 5.4 was destro and affliction.

You can't just choose one spec because it is powerful to learn, if you choose a spec it should be because you love its play style. If you plan to raid on a competitive level you won't get the luxury of choosing a spec strictly on play style most likely so in this case you need to learn all 3.

[DeadmanWalking]

There is no reason what so ever to choose a spec to learn, you should learn all of the specs, 5.1 affliction was strong demo had its moment, 5.2 destro was the starter spec, aff the mid level spec, demo the high lvl spec (in my opinion the best tier for warlocks as far as balance goes except for the affliction bug), 5.4 was destro and affliction.

You can't just choose one spec because it is powerful to learn, if you choose a spec it should be because you love its play style. If you plan to raid on a competitive level you won't get the luxury of choosing a spec strictly on play style most likely so in this case you need to learn all 3.

How about you let me decide why I want to play a spec and how I choose to apply it? M'kay thanks.

[Durantye]

How about you let me decide why I want to play a spec and how I choose to apply it? M'kay thanks.

How about you don't take what I say out of context mkayyyyyyy?? Good boy.

[DeadmanWalking]

How about you don't take what I say out of context mkayyyyyyy?? Good boy.

How about we discuss warlocks and you keep your insults and demeaning tone to yourself? I'm really sorry that someone on the internet disregarded what you said, it happens. Thick skins and all that.