Warlock Specs for WoD

[skitzin]

1. Demo
2. Affliction
3. Destro

Yeah based on the latest simcraft seen here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...or-all-classes

This is very much the case. I sure there will be some variance to those numbers but as a general guide it seems to hold even in the event of "helter skelter" fights where there is a lot of movement. (See: http://www.uploadhosting.co/uploads/...s._9aCZXh.html)

[Baconeggcheese]

I haven't really tested affliction since its last bit of buffs, but I'd be highly surprised to use it over destro as a 2ndary spec to demo.

The only area demo struggles in is sustained aoe, which is where destro shines. With the demo 2p bonus that might be a thing of the past spreading corruption on everything and sustaining 2 stack hogs but we'll see.

[evertonbelmontt]

The one thing I liked about destro in MoP was it's EXTREME offhealing/shield.
Now that's nerfed, it will weight more towards demon main and afflic off (because I like afflic more than destro too).

Mostly I will play demo because I miss it, never had the chance to play it a lot since UVLS never droped for me. And afflic because I've played destro so much during SoO until high level gear.

[Brusalk]

Just choosing to not use portal or gate then?

Portal requires prior knowledge of where you'll need to be as it has to be set up ahead of time. The main use case for personal portal is for getting back to a spot you were previously at, not going to a new one entirely.

Gateway is raid utility.. A warlock has no personal control over their own gateway unless the raid has no use for it, but even then it's just a shitter personal portal that takes way longer to cast and can be used less often.

Forgetting RoF and Conflagrate? taking away Conf since that might be on CD then RoF + gate/port is easily not going to cost you an insane amount of DPS.

Rain of Fire effectively has a 6-7 second CD since casting a rain of fire over an old one has absolutely 0 positive benefit and costs you a huge amount of mana.

- - - Updated - - -

Regardless, the main problem for destruction is the unplanned, unpredictable movement scenarios which is where Fel Flame is most useful. You can plan your movement 100% properly and still get screwed over by random fight mechanics like saw blades on Blackfuse.

[Shamran]

In order to not derail this thread any further, I've also posted the following in this thread so that any discussion about mobility can continue in a more appropriate place.

Just choosing to not use portal or gate then?

The discussion was about options to push something worthwhile to deal damage on the move. I didn't mention Blink, Blazing Speed, Leap of Faith, Angelic Feather, Displacer Beast or Wild Charge either. Come to think of it: If your ambition is to give Warlocks a leg-up in this ongoing comparison, you're doing yourself a disservice in bringing up Portal and Gates up since pretty much every other caster spec have similar move-fast, gapcloser cooldowns - only, with most of those, they can actually decide, in the moment, where they want to move to. Like Brusalk said: Portals aren't as kind, and you can just hope that you didn't place your portal where the boss has now cast a big puddle of death rendering that ability useless. Also, the gates can be used by anyone. It isn't something that just improves Warlock movement.

I do because I see it as true, like I said go to beta and try blowing someone up while moving now, you simply cannot

I don't recall anyone, including myself, ever said anything about being able to "blow someone up", as you put it. As I've said a fair number of times, it's about what options each spec has to offer in terms of having something to cast while moving. And no matter what you, as an individual, are or aren't able to do with your toon on beta, it doesn't change the facts that 1) Destruction is behind every other caster spec in that department and 2) Warlocks and Shamans are the only ones who have their options to cast-on-the-move nerfed in WoD. To apply your own logic: Go read patch notes, spec discriptions and ability tooltips, and you'll see for yourself.

So by that you seem to think blizz has some agenda against warlocks and shamans? come on.... Next you will go back to the old GMs play mages idiocy.

Um, no. I don't think I've ever said that. I've documented, as in presented evidence to prove, that what they write in the patch notes isn't correct. On that basis, I've moved for Blizzard to, at the very least, acknowledge that nerfs haven't been done to all classes in terms of mobility so that everyone can move on. That's pretty much what I've done.

1st one, yes.

point two, you can't have both as it is just now you either burst more or cast incinerate on the move, IT'S THE SAME CHOICE IN WoD, you just need to time when to use your mobility. Like I said previously, if you need to move in a fight, you take the mobility talent. It's not rocket science.

Simply because you are letting it be, why would you CHOOSE to gimp your mobility when it can be avoided quite easily? getting some casts off on a heavy movement fight will easily = about the same damage as the extra Dark Soul.

Point 3. Yes that is gone, so what? take KJC and you can cast 2 CBs on the move, then go back to stand casting.

Nice to finally see you admit that Fel Flame isn't the only thing being removed. Took you long enough. Also, about KJC: I've never said I want both. You claimed that Fel Flame was the only thing being removed in terms of a mobility nerf. I just pointed out that going from where KJC is on live to where it's going to be in WoD is also a mobility nerf.

Aside from that, and to make a point:

getting some casts off on a heavy movement fight will easily = about the same damage as the extra Dark Soul

Documentation, please.

Like I said before there is options available to Warlocks, but the amount of crying over Fel Flame is just stupid.

There are options, albeit poor options, and perhaps you're right that the reaction to Fel Flame is over the top. However, I've never said anything about that. I've merely documented that Blizzard hasn't nerfed all caster specs, just Shamans and Warlocks, notably Destruction Warlocks, who are now far behind most other caster specs in terms of mobility.

They are procs meaning that sometimes they won't have those spells to use on the move and sometimes they will so you can't base that on "Always" having those to push, procs are RNG and therefor not always available and if they get the procs then that's just good luck, thought you would have understood that but I guess not.

And I, in turn, would have thought that you understood what the term "options" means. I've never said that procs, like for example Frostfire Bolt, were always available. It's an option. Something you can cast on the move if the right conditions are met. But I'll bite. Let's follow your reasoning all the way through:

[...]sometimes they won't have those spells to use on the move and sometimes they will so you can't base that on "Always" having those to push, procs are RNG and therefor not always available and if they get the procs then that's just good luck[...]

By this logic, Shadowburn and Conflagrate shouldn't be considered cast-while-moving options either because the target might not be below 20% - and Conflagrate might be on cooldow - in that particular situation where you have to move. Thereby, those abilities wouldn't be, and aren't always, available. In fact, to deliberately exaggerate: In that situation where you have to move, your Rain of Fire might even already be running on that target, effectively putting that ability on a cooldown. As such, Rain of Fire doesn't even meet your code of what can be mentioned as a cast-on-the-move option. Man, it just keeps getting worse and worse for Destruction as a spec. :-)

But if you insist on going all the way down that road, and only consider options that are always available, fine by me:

Balance Druid: Moonfire/Sunfire
Shadow Priest: Shadow Word: Pain
Frost Mage: Ice Lance
Fire Mage: Living Bomb and Scorch
Arcane Mage: Nether Tempest and Arcane Explosion
Elemental Shaman: None.
Affliction Warlock: Agony and Corruption.
Demonology Warlock: Corruption and Hellfire
Destruction Warlock: None.

Forgetting RoF and Conflagrate? taking away Conf since that might be on CD then RoF + gate/port is easily not going to cost you an insane amount of DPS.

They both come fairly close if the RoF will hit the boss. With imolate on the target too then RoF actually deals some nice damage, I play affliction and even my RoF hits quite nicely.

To quote what's now been said a number of times:

Please remember, the mobility discussion has never been about carrying out a perfect rotation on the move. It’s about a holistic view on what cast-while-moving options each caster class has at their disposal – worthwhile buttons to push while moving – and whether or not all casters have had those options reduced going into WoD.

Aside from that: You do get that that list of abilities you quoted and responded to with your above remark, is, incidently, a list of abilities that are always available, right? And that Conflagrate is not?

Also, your point about RoF doesn't stick to landing. Like Brusalk pointed out: RoF effectively has a 6 second cooldown since it has zero effect to cast RoF on target that already is being hit by RoF.

So, no. I'm not forgetting about Conflagrate and RoF. In fact, those abilities in comparison with the options of other specs thoroughly underlines how I've documented the state of Destruction as a spec in WoD.

Sad fact is, it is actually true, doesn't matter how many times you say it's not.

You're absolutely right. What I say isn't truth because I say so. It's true because I've presented evidence and documented it to be true.

You say I never post evidence of this, well you posted blizz actually saying the same thing

Nice try, but "Because Blizzard said so" isn't evidence either, dude. Especially when all of this started with this post: Newest patch notes and casting-on-the-move where I, you know... *actually* present evidence that Blizzard's statements in the patch notes - and, thereby, what you're claiming to be fact - isn't correct. See, that's what you have to do for it to be considered evidence: Write a post that contains more than your subjective ramblings about how you feel the situation is on beta, how you would carry on in a movement heavy fight or what you believe to be right. You've not managed to do that yet.

[Shamanegans]

Portal requires prior knowledge of where you'll need to be as it has to be set up ahead of time. The main use case for personal portal is for getting back to a spot you were previously at, not going to a new one entirely.

Gateway is raid utility.. A warlock has no personal control over their own gateway unless the raid has no use for it, but even then it's just a shitter personal portal that takes way longer to cast and can be used less often.



Rain of Fire effectively has a 6-7 second CD since casting a rain of fire over an old one has absolutely 0 positive benefit and costs you a huge amount of mana.

- - - Updated - - -

Regardless, the main problem for destruction is the unplanned, unpredictable movement scenarios which is where Fel Flame is most useful. You can plan your movement 100% properly and still get screwed over by random fight mechanics like saw blades on Blackfuse.

point is they still help rather than having nothing.

The thing with the portal is, if it's heavy movement then take KJC, you know you are going to move soon then use KJC move while continuing to cast, lay portal where you will be going to then move back. Plan ahead.

RoF still gives you damage while you move and is quite close to what Fel Flame would do while you were moving if Immolate is present on the target.

@Shamran

About the dark soul thing well think of it like this, having dark soul up and needing to move but not be able to cast anything (according to you) is a waste and a wasted charge of that where KJC can be used to cast on the move so would easily net you close to the DPS. Not hard to understand that now is it?

[VladimirM]

Is it possible to find stat values for preWoD patch (6.0.2) for all 3 specs?

[andromalia]

Is it possible to find stat values for preWoD patch (6.0.2) for all 3 specs?

The stat values change for every piece of gear you get. You shouldn't really go by the "BiS" list that the sims use for full raid gear. You should theoretically run a new sim that evaluates stat weights every time you get an upgrade/sidegrade.

[Shamran]

@Shamran

About the dark soul thing well think of it like this, having dark soul up and needing to move but not be able to cast anything (according to you) is a waste and a wasted charge of that where KJC can be used to cast on the move so would easily net you close to the DPS. Not hard to understand that now is it?

Nope, that’s quite straightforward. There’s just the slight caveat that the premise of your reasoning is flawed:

You argued that on movement heavy fights, KJC would easily match AD. I asked you to document your claim, and in response (above) you say: “If you press DS and then have to run, thereby wasting a DS charge, then you’ll get more dps from KJC since you’re able to cast while you run”... Ya' think?

In that single, specific situation where you’re are unlucky enough to have just pressed DS and then immediately thereafter have to run for its duration – or if you’re stupid enough to press it while you run (and thereby waste a DS charge, as you say) - then you won’t get much dps out of choosing AD. However, that will far from always be the case.

It’s basically the same as saying: “If every single one of your Chaos Bolt casts were interrupted because you had to move, then you wouldn’t get much dps out of Chaos Bolt. Therefore, Immolate ticks are always more dps than Chaos Bolt on movement heavy fights”.

So, to use that single, specific situation as a basis to posit a general claim that KJC will easily match AD on movement heavy fights is… well, I guess, quite in line with how you usually try to warp conditions to make your arguments sound more reasonable. It still doesn’t make for documenting your claim, though.