Tanks. Are Dk's left behind? WoD.

[Stacie]

It's not really possible to give an order for best tank for every fight as it depend on the fight those tank's are doing and gear/skill. Some fights one tank will really shine on others no so much.

The best all around tank with everyone fully geared and equally skilled will likely be a Monk but its to early to tell for sure. Would say for majority of fights overall would be Monk > Warrior > Paladin/Druid (Tied) / DK.

Mobility is a key part of tanking we have very little. Every tank should have a sprint or charge IMO

Wish they would allow a Blood DK's grip to pull them to a boss. Sort of like a toggle like hunters traps. Toggle on is pull DK towards toggle off pull adds towards. Even with this we would not be the best for kiting adds and stuff.

[UnholyGrazer]

It's not really possible to give an order for best tank for every fight as it depend on the fight those tank's are doing and gear/skill. Some fights one tank will really shine on others no so much.

The best all around tank with everyone fully geared and equally skilled will likely be a Monk but its to early to tell for sure. Would say for majority of fights overall would be Monk > Warrior > Paladin/Druid (Tied) / DK.

Mobility is a key part of tanking we have very little. Every tank should have a sprint or charge IMO

Wish they would allow a Blood DK's grip to pull them to a boss. Sort of like a toggle like hunters traps. Toggle on is pull DK towards toggle off pull adds towards. Even with this we would not be the best for kiting adds and stuff.

It's really annoying considering I love playing my Death Knight and I am not allowed to be on par with other tanks with similar gear.

[Stacie]

It's really annoying considering I love playing my Death Knight and I am not allowed to be on par with other tanks with similar gear.

For the content you are doing you will likely still be fine though its not as if a DK will be unplayable even if they are the worst. Sure mobility loss means working harder same with mitigation possibly working harder to get equal results. Does not make it unplayable though just a pain.

[Faenlyn]

For the content you are doing you will likely still be fine though its not as if a DK will be unplayable even if they are the worst. Sure mobility loss means working harder same with mitigation possibly working harder to get equal results. Does not make it unplayable though just a pain.

So we have already decided they are the worst.. Based on no objective information or logs or analysis or performance data whatsoever. Great. I suppose in a forum everyone is entitled to their opinion. And that's all it is. Opinion and rather negative melodramatic opinion. Here is my opinion. DKs play fine on the Beta and they will continue to be a strong tank as they have been for a while

[Stacie]

So we have already decided they are the worst.. Based on no objective information or logs or analysis or performance data whatsoever. Great. I suppose in a forum everyone is entitled to their opinion. And that's all it is. Opinion and rather negative melodramatic opinion. Here is my opinion. DKs play fine on the Beta and they will continue to be a strong tank as they have been for a while

No one is saying they wont play fine they will. But what i am saying is you will always have that mobility issue as a DK tank. Think Garrosh heroic kiting and stuff. We are just bad at it. I'm sure other tanks are bad at other stuff we are good at magic damage soaking for example.

Not having a good kiting tank will/can brake a fight. Having a none DK take some magic damage won't. Its better to be jack of all trades than just jack of 1.

[Andaja]

By kiting you mean iron star or adds? Cause unless you try for world first that mobility was not needed. Sure it helps and makes things easier, but it can entirely be done without mobile classes.

[Müdür]

Got a few questions for beta-testers:

1. How is tank self healing comparisons atm? One of the biggest reasons I play DK as main is the crazy soloing capabity, which will get a big hit when the WoD arrives.

2. Someone above mentioned Warriors are ahead of DKs self-healing-wise. I wonder if its true or how exactly, as I dont see any self healing ability besides Second Wind (which I dont know if buffed or nerfed with leech change)

3. What do you think about Paladins comparing to DKs and Warriors? In the aspects of Self-Healing, Mobility, Rotation and Mythic Tanking Survival.

I must admit WoD DK changes worry me a little and I'm having thoughts of switching my main. My raid squad already have a Paladin and DK tank, so I may switch to Warrior, roll a Paladin or keep tanking as the DK. What you guys suggest?

[Faenlyn]

Got a few questions for beta-testers:

1. How is tank self healing comparisons atm? One of the biggest reasons I play DK as main is the crazy soloing capabity, which will get a big hit when the WoD arrives.

2. Someone above mentioned Warriors are ahead of DKs self-healing-wise. I wonder if its true or how exactly, as I dont see any self healing ability besides Second Wind (which I dont know if buffed or nerfed with leech change)

3. What do you think about Paladins comparing to DKs and Warriors? In the aspects of Self-Healing, Mobility, Rotation and Mythic Tanking Survival.

I must admit WoD DK changes worry me a little and I'm having thoughts of switching my main. My raid squad already have a Paladin and DK tank, so I may switch to Warrior, roll a Paladin or keep tanking as the DK. What you guys suggest?

I dont know much about Warriors but I can tell you Paladins are essentially unchanged from live. They received almost no changes. Holy Shield is great for magic intensive fights but thats the only notable addition. For the most part DKs are pretty much the same class you know on live. So your decision to play Paladin vs DK should be the same as it is currently in MoP. Paladins are probably the 2nd best self healers after DKs and that remains relatively unchanged. Keep in mind that self healing in general is being nerfed because they want healers to take back more of their job from the tanks who can self heal many fights currently.
Nothing like our Paladin and Bear healing each other in Heroic Shamans up top in the split strat with no dedicated healer assigned to them. That kind of play is being nerfed.

[Deleted]

I finally got into the Beta last week and I am a bit bummed by the blood changes. I concur with previous posters saying warriors are basically better dks. The insane amount of mobility is hard to match with a lousy death grip and death's advance. I am testing blood dk, prot warri and guardian druid for possible mains.

So your only single target spell is Death Coil. Bloodboil is the main spell you will use, single and multi target. It's literally the only thing that you can use to get rid of blood runes, aside from rune tap, which now acts like shieldwall and is no longer a plain heal (nice)[oh yes, strangulate uses 1B]. I don't quite know what is causing me so much trouble, but I find it very difficult to have the spells ready when you need them. Everything has to be timed beforehand.

I thought Defile was an awesome talent, but the cooldown should be reduced in order for it to be more useful like Consecration (I'd prefer if Crimson Scourge would simply reset its cooldown). I don't have numbers this is just through tanking in beta. Breath of Sindragosa makes more sense because you can lay off a few death coils to keep RP high and channel it when spell damage is incoming.

The warrior in comparison feels so much more rounded to me. I have more attacks (that don't penalise my cd's), more utility (shockwave and ravager are very useful), plus mocking banner, double charge and heroic leap. Three defensive cd's not counting last stand. I feel warrior self heal is not as great as dk, but you have more stuff to mitigate that damage in the first place.

That's my impression so far.

[Valkaneer]

No one is saying they wont play fine they will. But what i am saying is you will always have that mobility issue as a DK tank. Think Garrosh heroic kiting and stuff. We are just bad at it. I'm sure other tanks are bad at other stuff we are good at magic damage soaking for example.

Not having a good kiting tank will/can brake a fight. Having a none DK take some magic damage won't. Its better to be jack of all trades than just jack of 1.

Problem is I see a lot of people saying what they think and very very little conclusion based on evidence. I have not seen any real or tested evidence that DK tanks are any less viable than any other tank in this thread so far. I have seen a lot of people say how they feel and what they think.

[Gurg]

Problem is I see a lot of people saying what they think and very very little conclusion based on evidence. I have not seen any real or tested evidence that DK tanks are any less viable than any other tank in this thread so far. I have seen a lot of people say how they feel and what they think.

Unless you run in progression raid DKs are fine, and thats something that we keep repeating but ppl fail to notice. Noone says that they will be "less valuable" instead its like Chaos said, you just have to work harder to get similar results as, lets say prot paladin.
Its just like Luftdot said, new blood rotation feels simply to much cut down and it feels harder to set up spells than it used to be, at least it was for me too. Im not pro tank, but im tanking farm runs on SoO10HC, im overgeared so thats not that much hard, but still i have general feel and i know how to play blood. New blood simply feels.. so much... slow.. and i mean SLOW.. you just sit on autoattacks, burning your runes on BB and DS, while burning RP via Death Coil or Breath if youre speced into it, It really feels awkward compared to other tanks that are not so much resource dependant like Monks or warriors who always have something to do, nothing more.

I run yesterday on this Simulationcraft Raid T17N - 9.24.2014 while browsing Enhance shaman's forum on totemspot so this might help a bit. Take note that this is generalized simcraft of CURRENT BETA patch, it prolly means nothing so dont take it seriously at all, but i doubt that blood will change much mechanically so im just posting this cause it looks like bloods selfhealing is insane and you might draw some info from it. Its enough just to look at Wait time and you will know what are we talking about, its still BETA sim, but still it DOES feel like that.

Chaos, as for Death Grip.. iwe been spamming for quite a long time something similar, it was more like DG works normally, but when we cant pull boss mobs to us we should be able to pull our selfs forward to boss, similar to charge, yet different in a DK way. Also, something like that could be implemented as warriors "intervene" where you could DG jump-intervene to a player. But yet again.. that would be to much mobility for one son of a lich, the lich who chases you trough whole dungeon and you manage to escape him quite easily. I think that Devs should think out of the box and move a bit from strict "son of a lich" design and give us some mobility, otherwise we migh end up as slow moving glaciars >___>
Im not asking for something like roll or charge, but simple reduced CD on Deaths Advance and bigger movement boost for shorter duration could do a trick like.. 45% boost for 3sec on 20sec CD.

[Stacie]

Unless you run in progression raid DKs are fine, and thats something that we keep repeating but ppl fail to notice. Noone says that they will be "less valuable" instead its like Chaos said, you just have to work harder to get similar results as, lets say prot paladin.
Its just like Luftdot said, new blood rotation feels simply to much cut down and it feels harder to set up spells than it used to be, at least it was for me too. Im not pro tank, but im tanking farm runs on SoO10HC, im overgeared so thats not that much hard, but still i have general feel and i know how to play blood. New blood simply feels.. so much... slow.. and i mean SLOW.. you just sit on autoattacks, burning your runes on BB and DS, while burning RP via Death Coil or Breath if youre speced into it, It really feels awkward compared to other tanks that are not so much resource dependant like Monks or warriors who always have something to do, nothing more.

I run yesterday on this Simulationcraft Raid T17N - 9.24.2014 while browsing Enhance shaman's forum on totemspot so this might help a bit. Take note that this is generalized simcraft of CURRENT BETA patch, it prolly means nothing so dont take it seriously at all, but i doubt that blood will change much mechanically so im just posting this cause it looks like bloods selfhealing is insane and you might draw some info from it. Its enough just to look at Wait time and you will know what are we talking about, its still BETA sim, but still it DOES feel like that.

Chaos, as for Death Grip.. iwe been spamming for quite a long time something similar, it was more like DG works normally, but when we cant pull boss mobs to us we should be able to pull our selfs forward to boss, similar to charge, yet different in a DK way. Also, something like that could be implemented as warriors "intervene" where you could DG jump-intervene to a player. But yet again.. that would be to much mobility for one son of a lich, the lich who chases you trough whole dungeon and you manage to escape him quite easily. I think that Devs should think out of the box and move a bit from strict "son of a lich" design and give us some mobility, otherwise we migh end up as slow moving glaciars >___>
Im not asking for something like roll or charge, but simple reduced CD on Deaths Advance and bigger movement boost for shorter duration could do a trick like.. 45% boost for 3sec on 20sec CD.

If you want the latest ones just go to http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D :P

Mythic: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...6-14-b4f9.html
Heroic: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...6-14-b4f9.html
Normal: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...6-14-b4f9.html

Don't take as gospel though the sims are not perfect yet and still under heavy work the gear people use BiS, best talents, best glyphs and stuff still have not been perfected. A ruff idea maybe?

I don't know why people keep asking for evidence just download the PTR and check live you can see our mobility is crap and we have to work harder >.<

[Valkaneer]

I don't know why people keep asking for evidence just download the PTR and check live you can see our mobility is crap and we have to work harder >.<

Because mobility is not the only form of mitigation. How much damage vs other tanks. How much absorbs vs other tanks. How much self healing vs other tanks. How many raid CDs vs other tanks. Because a good Blood DK has always been a highly valuable etc etc. DK's have always had a very deep tool kit, and the PTR is not Beta with all that is available to DK's. For example Blood DK's have a pretty crazy amount of potential in AoE situations with PB and NP. I can see a tremendous amount of Runic Power at a Blood DK's finger tips. If you have enough runic power from NP you can spam DC and very possibly have Runic Emp refilling Runes fast enough for more DS's etc. I can see the possibility for DK's to be king of AoE tanking.

What kinds of Sims have they been running so far? Are they doing heavy AoE situations like Beastlord? This is why testing and evidence is important, and why the PTR does not mean much when you don't have access to lvl 100 talents.

[Gurg]

...This is why testing and evidence is important, and why the PTR does not mean much when you don't have access to lvl 100 talents.

If youre following blood changes on beta you should already know that Lvl 100 talent doesnt affect Bloods mitigation at all nor are helpful much in any way EXCEPT boosting their DPS by small amount, and DPS is ONLY thing that tanks shouldnt think about at all cause with recent rework of tanks their DPS was heavily cut down to avoid Mists tanks where they could easily be in top 5 with high Vengeance stacks. Thats simply not happening again. DKs are pretty much most famous class for getting crappiest talents EVER, Necrotic Plague is QoL change, disease applied with any special attack and heavily undertuned currently, Breath is RP dump and talent that you will avoid due to fact that you will dump all your RP via Death Coil for 3% MAX HP bonus per cast (i managed to get it up to 33%), and Defile is unholy rune dump.

So, if you are really interested in reworked Blood, how does it feel, mechanical change and bloods survivability i see no reason why you shouldnt download PTR and head for SoO.

[Zorish]

mmm. Defile have 10% damage reduction, NP have rp generation (well it will help in reseting runes quicker), and BoS heal us if target cast some ... nasty aoe spell (imagine to heal for 10% of damage for EVERY target hit by garrosh Whirlwind - for example). i Can't call it not helpfull in mitigation.

still this sims are scary... palas are best in healing, warriors in damage, and we have worst TMI (if i got it right - lower=better?!)... and mobility problems... so does sims lie?

[Deleted]

I thought blood dks were okay in WoD o.o

[Gurg]

I thought blood dks were okay in WoD o.o

yup, nothing wrong with them, what are we talking about just means that you will need to work a bit harder to have same results as some other tanks.

mmm. Defile have 10% damage reduction, NP have rp generation (well it will help in reseting runes quicker), and BoS heal us if target cast some ... nasty aoe spell (imagine to heal for 10% of damage for EVERY target hit by garrosh Whirlwind - for example). i Can't call it not helpfull in mitigation.

still this sims are scary... palas are best in healing, warriors in damage, and we have worst TMI (if i got it right - lower=better?!)... and mobility problems... so does sims lie?

You missunderstood BoS tooltip, you will get healed for 10% of the SPELL damage done TO YOU (and you only) from every target which is affected by BoS. You will not be, like you said, healed for 10% of spell damage which your BoS affected target delt to your raid. So, basically its for fights with caster adds. Again, youre sacrificing a DC casts which increase your HP by 3%.

Defile is flat 10% damage reduction for 10s and it does cost only 1UH rune so i hardly see the reason why should anyone take BoS (which cost RP and heals only for 10% of SPELL damage done to DK) over Defile (which costs 1UH and its flat 10% damage reduction).

Necrotic Plague is currently undertuned and it does less damage than it should, Spoony simmed that NP for frost is DPS loss, its even better not to take any lvl 100 talent than choose Necrotic Plague, its generating flat 60 RP per 30sec, so its 120per min, 1200RP over 10min fight which is 40 DC casts, give or take few.

From what i managed to comprehend you will pretty much Generate RP (via IT,PS and DS), use DC to reset runes/dump RP/increase your max HP by 3% per cast and use BB stacks of DS to heal for more, so basically you will be healing ur self non stop, with higher stacks of DC buff your will have more HP (as i said max i managed to stack is up to 33%).

As both of us said, Chaos and me, this is just generalized or rough sim as its not yet completely implemented info about all classes and its still beta, so things can literally change over night (8h patch cycle), so pay little attention to them. Whats scaring me the most is simple "wait timer" where we do nothing but white damage, which pretty much confirms what we said here several times, currently Blood feels extremely slow paced, NOT BAD but slow, really slow.

Again guys, keep in mind that were talking about current BETA patch and FIRST tier of raiding, number tuning hasnt even begun yet.
On top of that, blizz is kinda famous of patching things up mid expansion when every major content update goes live. So for all means all this can be outdated and inaccurate over night.
If you are interested in CURRENT state of blood by all means download PTR and test it. ^_^

[Valkaneer]

If youre following blood changes on beta you should already know that Lvl 100 talent doesnt affect Bloods mitigation at all nor are helpful much in any way EXCEPT boosting their DPS by small amount, and DPS is ONLY thing that tanks shouldnt think about at all cause with recent rework of tanks their DPS was heavily cut down to avoid Mists tanks where they could easily be in top 5 with high Vengeance stacks. Thats simply not happening again. DKs are pretty much most famous class for getting crappiest talents EVER, Necrotic Plague is QoL change, disease applied with any special attack and heavily undertuned currently, Breath is RP dump and talent that you will avoid due to fact that you will dump all your RP via Death Coil for 3% MAX HP bonus per cast (i managed to get it up to 33%), and Defile is unholy rune dump.

So, if you are really interested in reworked Blood, how does it feel, mechanical change and bloods survivability i see no reason why you shouldnt download PTR and head for SoO.

It has to help in mitigation via gained RP, when your bar is filling with RP very quickly spam DC for more Blood boils or DS. I normally use them on Blood boils though and stack to 5 for a 100% DS. It is indirect, and Its only good in AoE like I was saying. Not to mention I can throw out absorbs on other people in the raid Via glyph with DC.

It's a different idea, but when I was testing on large pack groups my RP bar would sometimes fill in almost in a second or two between melee attacks etc.

[Zka]

I am pretty sure DKs are at the top since they are going for active mitigation and DKs were built around active mitigation. They are struggling to find a way to make the other tanks fit the DK/Monk style.

The DK selfheals have been nerfed to the ground. From a gameplay perspective this is not good, but overall the tanks have fairly similar total mitigation (passive+active). Previously DKs were taking more damage and did much more selfheals. Now this is not so pronounced, the damage taken / selfheal of tanks is much more in line over the board. Blood DK will no longer be the default solo spec I think.

[lunaru]

dks aren't that great compared to a warrior/paladin or even monk