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  1. #21
    Destro - Most definitely needs it as it currently has almost no movement whatsoever or what I would consider reasonable movement abilities. I'm sorry but Conflag is not reasonable in my eyes to be considered a "movement" ability.
    Affliction - Most definitely needs it as it currently has no direct damage other than melee and Haunt.
    Demo - Does not need it. Yes, using Fury during movement sucks but if you are just trying to get like 10-15 yards you aren't going to bomb all your fury in those few casts. Not only that but Demo, as well as Affliction, can life tap if below a certain % mana so that you don't need to do it while standing still.

  2. #22
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    Should bring back Searing Pain

  3. #23
    I do not think that Demo needs it but do agree that Destro needs it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Novx View Post
    Destro - Most definitely needs it as it currently has almost no movement whatsoever or what I would consider reasonable movement abilities. I'm sorry but Conflag is not reasonable in my eyes to be considered a "movement" ability.
    Affliction - Most definitely needs it as it currently has no direct damage other than melee and Haunt.
    Demo - Does not need it. Yes, using Fury during movement sucks but if you are just trying to get like 10-15 yards you aren't going to bomb all your fury in those few casts. Not only that but Demo, as well as Affliction, can life tap if below a certain % mana so that you don't need to do it while standing still.
    The issue with fel flame least effects demo out of the three (for PVE), yes but it still has a negative. For pvp it is most needed or at least on par with the other two specs considering its cast time and the dmg output for those casts which isnt worth it at all. Adding fel flame back wouldnt hurt anyone and its definitely not something others complained about.

    Also life tapping on movement phases where dmg is most likely coming doesn't sound like a good idea.. then again. killing ourselves for our dps is a thing isnt it? lol

  5. #25
    The entire point of removing it is to nerf warlocks.

    There is a reason that warlocks were top tier - and ridiculously so - for Siege. Demo was bad, ok, but Destro was near the top and Affli was (and currently is) literally 15% better than any other class/spec combo in the game.

    They don't need to add movement, they took AWAY movement to nerf warlocks ON PURPOSE. That was literally the entire point of doing it, because warlocks were OP, and now they're relatively balanced.

    The only thing adding something like that in would do is make locks OP again, and we don't need that

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nhiosis View Post
    We all need to continue to complain and give feedback... hoping blizzard caves and gives it back to destruction.
    The devs have made it clear that Warlocks are intended to be terrible this expansion since they were overpowered all of Mists. Suck it up and move on.

  7. #27
    More than anything, warlocks need Fel Flame as a massive quality of life spell. Playing without an instant ping and no movement filler is beyond clunky, not to mention horribly dull. I don't even want to imagine how much less fun leveling/questing with my warlock in WoD is going to be compared to the last couple of expansions.

    Or heck, better yet just retune the old KJC properly to offer balanced DPS with the other talents on its tier, and let the *player* choose whether they want to be quick and nimble or a powerful turret. Wouldn't that be a novel idea huh?

  8. #28
    Fel flame definitely did NOT make warlocks op. it was far below our standard damaging attacks to use and i dont recall any complaints about it. KJC however wouldve been overpowered for WOD. but having a really low damaging instant impact attack had no problems.

  9. #29
    Every time I see a thread with a class whining about movement options being taken away, I wonder if they've ever played balance druid during MoP which has...0 options for dpsing on the go unless you're lucky with starsurge procs, or like to spam moonfire.

    Seriously, most other casters, warlocks and shamans especially, have had it really good in MoP. I'm glad that dps on the go is getting an all-around nerf; it needed it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by SinAscendant View Post
    The entire point of removing it is to nerf warlocks.

    There is a reason that warlocks were top tier - and ridiculously so - for Siege. Demo was bad, ok, but Destro was near the top and Affli was (and currently is) literally 15% better than any other class/spec combo in the game.

    They don't need to add movement, they took AWAY movement to nerf warlocks ON PURPOSE. That was literally the entire point of doing it, because warlocks were OP, and now they're relatively balanced.

    The only thing adding something like that in would do is make locks OP again, and we don't need that
    I highly doubt that FF made the warlocks op. It barely made a difference, but still was something that is castable on the move.
    Also how will Affli clear Totems in PvP now? YoloHaunt for SS? Sounds like a great deal for me!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SinAscendant View Post
    The entire point of removing it is to nerf warlocks.

    There is a reason that warlocks were top tier - and ridiculously so - for Siege. Demo was bad, ok, but Destro was near the top and Affli was (and currently is) literally 15% better than any other class/spec combo in the game.

    They don't need to add movement, they took AWAY movement to nerf warlocks ON PURPOSE. That was literally the entire point of doing it, because warlocks were OP, and now they're relatively balanced.

    The only thing adding something like that in would do is make locks OP again, and we don't need that
    The problem is that it's bad design to nerf a class by removing mechanics that drastically improve its quality of life, rather than simply tweaking numbers. Everything is about the numbers. Heck, a class can have ranged DPS, maximum mobility, self healing, and raid utility all in the same package and not be overpowered provided the numbers are tuned appropriately.

    If a class (a good example: hunters in WoD) is able to do maximum DPS while moving, and on average ranged DPS have to spend, say, ~20% of each boss fight moving across a given tier, then you simply balance their DPS with that of the ranged classes with no mobility, reduce it by ~20%, and voila, your class is fully mobile and averages out to be equal with everyone else in current content.

    I care very little about how powerful a class is in comparison to the others, I care about them being fun to play, having a diverse and useful toolkit so that they don't feel hamstrung in certain situations, and iterating on the smooth design of expansions past, rather than reverting back into something we've barely seen since TBC.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    The problem is that it's bad design to nerf a class by removing mechanics that drastically improve its quality of life, rather than simply tweaking numbers. Everything is about the numbers. Heck, a class can have ranged DPS, maximum mobility, self healing, and raid utility all in the same package and not be overpowered provided the numbers are tuned appropriately.

    If a class (a good example: hunters in WoD) is able to do maximum DPS while moving, and on average ranged DPS have to spend, say, ~20% of each boss fight moving across a given tier, then you simply balance their DPS with that of the ranged classes with no mobility, reduce it by ~20%, and voila, your class is fully mobile and averages out to be equal with everyone else in current content.

    I care very little about how powerful a class is in comparison to the others, I care about them being fun to play, having a diverse and useful toolkit so that they don't feel hamstrung in certain situations, and iterating on the smooth design of expansions past, rather than reverting back into something we've barely seen since TBC.
    The point of removing dps on the go across the board is to make movement an active choice that the raider should be able to make to optimise their performance in a raid, and not just go "oh well I have 20% less dps for the next 10 sec cause I gotta move" - that is called gameplay and using your brain to raid.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarob22 View Post
    The point of removing dps on the go across the board is to make movement an active choice that the raider should be able to make to optimise their performance in a raid, and not just go "oh well I have 20% less dps for the next 10 sec cause I gotta move" - that is called gameplay and using your brain to raid.
    Actually with fel flame the dps loss is a little more than 20%, and again its for QoL. There is no foreseeable problem nor has there been one keeping it in. Removing FF isnt a cc removal or for number tuning it was simply something that they removed that made warlocks less enjoyable which should not have been the case; might as well have removed eye of kilrogg if thats what they were aiming for. And as far as i know all casters have some instant either on no cd or below a 6 sec cd that they can do on the move to account for movement phases. ice lance changes are an affront to the fel flame removal in this regard seeing as to how using icelance on the move (even if it has no procs) is not a bad exchange for movement on the dps as opposed to what warlocks are being suggested to do now (lifetapping and spamming dots?....)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kan View Post
    Actually with fel flame the dps loss is a little more than 20%, and again its for QoL. There is no foreseeable problem nor has there been one keeping it in. Removing FF isnt a cc removal or for number tuning it was simply something that they removed that made warlocks less enjoyable which should not have been the case; might as well have removed eye of kilrogg if thats what they were aiming for. And as far as i know all casters have some instant either on no cd or below a 6 sec cd that they can do on the move to account for movement phases. ice lance changes are an affront to the fel flame removal in this regard seeing as to how using icelance on the move (even if it has no procs) is not a bad exchange for movement on the dps as opposed to what warlocks are being suggested to do now (lifetapping and spamming dots?....)
    Please see my reply above re moonkins who have never had any sort of dps on the go apart from lucky procs in MoP (which rarely proc exactly when you need them, as is the nature of procs), and before then absolutely nothing.

    It doesn't matter what the dps loss is, that is irrelevant to this conversation. The thing they are trying to change is people -not caring- when movement happens because they just pop <movement_buff> or use <movement_spell> (KJC, incinerate, shammy LB, scorch, ice lance etc...) and don't care. Blizzard are trying to make you care when you move, and for it to be a concious decision.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinAscendant View Post
    The entire point of removing it is to nerf warlocks.

    There is a reason that warlocks were top tier - and ridiculously so - for Siege. Demo was bad, ok, but Destro was near the top and Affli was (and currently is) literally 15% better than any other class/spec combo in the game.

    They don't need to add movement, they took AWAY movement to nerf warlocks ON PURPOSE. That was literally the entire point of doing it, because warlocks were OP, and now they're relatively balanced.

    The only thing adding something like that in would do is make locks OP again, and we don't need that
    Among all the factors leading to Warlock imbalance in MoP, mobility is a very small part.

    If you're seeing a Warlock blow up the meters, it's probably because:

    A) They're Affliction abusing Dot Snapshotting (GONE IN WOD) and Soul Swap (SEVERELY NERFED IN WOD) on a DoT-friendly fight. The spec's resource generation is massively nerfed in WoD.
    B) They're Destruction and destroying everyone on AoE because Fire and Brimstone is ridiculous (no change here, but the spec will probably be DoA for anything else).

    Hunters are pretty much 100 percent mobile on Live....they aren't overtuned because of this alone, are they? Of course not. It's all a numbers game.

    Nobody is asking for more movement, we're asking for a minor crumb back that would hopefully put us at the level of those poor abused Shadow Priests and Boomkin who at least have spammable damage on the move.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarob22 View Post
    Every time I see a thread with a class whining about movement options being taken away, I wonder if they've ever played balance druid during MoP which has...0 options for dpsing on the go unless you're lucky with starsurge procs, or like to spam moonfire.

    Seriously, most other casters, warlocks and shamans especially, have had it really good in MoP. I'm glad that dps on the go is getting an all-around nerf; it needed it.
    Who gives a shit about MoP? It will very soon be ancient history. We're concerned about how things will play out going forward, not QQing about old content.

    It wasn't that long ago that Destruction had nothing to cast on the move but Life Tap and Corruption (which was barely worth even the free global). Demonology in Cataclysm got fucked hard by movement as much as any ranged spec in the game. Who cares now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarob22 View Post
    The point of removing dps on the go across the board
    They aren't doing this at all. You people need to stop with this misinformed bullshit. There are still five ranged specs who are barely hindered by movement.

    The thing they are trying to change is people -not caring- when movement happens because they just pop <movement_buff> or use <movement_spell> (KJC, incinerate, shammy LB, scorch, ice lance etc...) and don't care. Blizzard are trying to make you care when you move, and for it to be a concious decision.
    This I will agree with. There's no skill in totally passive KJC, particularly when it let us cast anything. The WoD version takes a little more brainpower to use.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2014-10-03 at 02:22 PM.

  16. #36
    I have seen your reply, and as far as i can tell boomkin dots hit for "low" instant impact dmg which is what fel flame did ["moonfare spam"]. if demo, aff or destro had something like that, an instant impact dmg even immolate being castable while moving would be better than the alternative we are experiencing now. and no conflag / HoG are not viable for that since they are apart of our standard rotation. much prefer using FF when i have to run to point A to point B than just having nothing to do .. #QoL

    For pvp however boomkins are FAR more mobile than a warlock right now considering the roots+movement speed+2 talents useable for cc and gap distancers etc etc. If your post was entirely listed for pve please mention that so that the other half of the game can recognize whether or not its being acknowledged in your post or if you are just addressing one part (raids).

    EDIT: Also this isnt a backlash game. (that was removed.... get it? ... ) If one spec was good in mop that doesnt mean it should be punished. its not our faults. why should our QoL be hurt because of that?
    Last edited by Kan; 2014-10-03 at 02:21 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SinAscendant View Post
    The entire point of removing it is to nerf warlocks.

    There is a reason that warlocks were top tier - and ridiculously so - for Siege. Demo was bad, ok, but Destro was near the top and Affli was (and currently is) literally 15% better than any other class/spec combo in the game.

    They don't need to add movement, they took AWAY movement to nerf warlocks ON PURPOSE. That was literally the entire point of doing it, because warlocks were OP, and now they're relatively balanced.

    The only thing adding something like that in would do is make locks OP again, and we don't need that
    Point of fact, locks are OP because stat snapshotting is OP, and all Warlock specs benefit massively from abusing snapshotted DoTs or Chaos Bolts. Blizzard could probably give Fel Flame back to Destruction with few ill benefits, it already doesn't do enough damage on the move to be worth the mana cost compared to conflagrate.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No
    Who gives a shit about MoP? It will very soon be ancient history. We're concerned about how things will play out going forward, not QQing about old content.
    Ok then, look at moonkins in WoD. They're in practically the same position as in MoP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kan View Post
    I have seen your reply, and as far as i can tell boomkin dots hit for "low" instant impact dmg which is what fel flame did ["moonfare spam"]. if demo, aff or destro had something like that, an instant impact dmg even immolate being castable while moving would be better than the alternative we are experiencing now. and no conflag / HoG are not viable for that since they are apart of our standard rotation. much prefer using FF when i have to run to point A to point B than just having nothing to do .. #QoL

    For pvp however boomkins are FAR more mobile than a warlock right now considering the roots+movement speed+2 talents useable for cc and gap distancers etc etc. If your post was entirely listed for pve please mention that so that the other half of the game can recognize whether or not its being acknowledged in your post or if you are just addressing one part (raids).

    EDIT: Also this isnt a backlash game. (that was removed.... get it? ... ) If one spec was good in mop that doesnt mean it should be punished. its not our faults. why should our QoL be hurt because of that?
    I'm talking entirely about PvE if that wasn't clear, sorry. Also there's no need for the quotation marks around low in 'boomkin dots hit for "low" instant impact dmg' - they're dots, they aren't meant to do any meaningful spam cast dps at all.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarob22 View Post
    The point of removing dps on the go across the board is to make movement an active choice that the raider should be able to make to optimise their performance in a raid, and not just go "oh well I have 20% less dps for the next 10 sec cause I gotta move" - that is called gameplay and using your brain to raid.
    How is there a functional difference in that, other than one option involving the player pressing buttons consistently (which most people would consider a lot more enjoyable and better paced) and the other involving them twiddling their thumbs?
    As long as you lose *some* DPS while moving, then the game of when-to-move will always exist. A player who moves without thinking will perform sub-optimally, while one who does think will perform at the top of their class.

    And, as I mentioned before, even if you have a talent like the MoP KJC, as long as it's balanced appropriately alongside the other talent picks, I don't see how it causes any problems. And heck, if the devs *really* wanted to push people towards the turret style they could easily tune said talent to be slightly behind the others, further rewarding people who play the turret game to the best of their ability. Every single talent tree has (often multiple) picks that allow the player to lower the skillcap for their class in the form of passives vs actives/cooldowns, and that's a good thing. Different playstyles should be encouraged and left up to the player, rather than shoehorning them into a one-size-fits-all design.

    The main reason I champion caster mobility overall, though, is that the current WoD design massively limits the amount of challenge and depth that can be gotten out of boss movement mechanics. You will never see a boss like Zen'shar (in my opinion one of the most fun and challenging encounters in the game) in progression raiding, because the majority of classes simply do not have the mobility to execute a movement pattern that complex. Most of the movement mechanics in current boss fights are incredibly slow-paced and easy to deal with, generally requiring little more than the memorisation of a pattern. If they were any harder and more involved, the current class design simply wouldn't be able to handle it.

    I strongly feel as though the game isn't living up to its potential when it forces caster immobility and keeps us stuck in the mindset of decade-old design, rather than evolving and playing to the strengths that it's been building upon for the last several years.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    How is there a functional difference in that, other than one option involving the player pressing buttons consistently (which most people would consider a lot more enjoyable and better paced) and the other involving them twiddling their thumbs?
    As long as you lose *some* DPS while moving, then the game of when-to-move will always exist. A player who moves without thinking will perform sub-optimally, while one who does think will perform at the top of their class.

    And, as I mentioned before, even if you have a talent like the MoP KJC, as long as it's balanced appropriately alongside the other talent picks, I don't see how it causes any problems. And heck, if the devs *really* wanted to push people towards the turret style they could easily tune said talent to be slightly behind the others, further rewarding people who play the turret game to the best of their ability. Every single talent tree has (often multiple) picks that allow the player to lower the skillcap for their class in the form of passives vs actives/cooldowns, and that's a good thing. Different playstyles should be encouraged and left up to the player, rather than shoehorning them into a one-size-fits-all design.

    The main reason I champion caster mobility overall, though, is that the current WoD design massively limits the amount of challenge and depth that can be gotten out of boss movement mechanics. You will never see a boss like Zen'shar (in my opinion one of the most fun and challenging encounters in the game) in progression raiding, because the majority of classes simply do not have the mobility to execute a movement pattern that complex. Most of the movement mechanics in current boss fights are incredibly slow-paced and easy to deal with, generally requiring little more than the memorisation of a pattern. If they were any harder and more involved, the current class design simply wouldn't be able to handle it.

    I strongly feel as though the game isn't living up to its potential when it forces caster immobility and keeps us stuck in the mindset of decade-old design, rather than evolving and playing to the strengths that it's been building upon for the last several years.
    Being able to cast fel flame/incinerate whilst moving is not brain-engaging gameplay - saving up procs/being able to use teleport/dash abilities when movement is required, is. To be honest, I'd rather warlocks have KJC (though probably nerfed) than be able to spam FF/Inc - though I'm not really sure it's needed as you already have portal, demon circle (and demon leap in demo).

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