Why demo and destro need a fel flame type spell

[fguru482]

You guys arent really grasping the full concept behind fel flame.

You can use it to kill totems
You can use it when you are knocked in the air on a boss
You can use it while kiting adds
You can use it while kiting a boss that is below 1% health
You can use it when getting knocked back
You can use it when you stutter step
You can use it when you need just a little ember and a proc is falling off and it enables you to get off a cb in the proc that wouldnt have happnd with incinerate
You can use it in demo while moving and there are no procs up for meta


Its more than just a spell to use on the move. Its a strategic spell that should only be used a few times but when used properly it helps your dps slightly and i love it for this reason

[Werst]

Play against warrior or shaman and see how badly you want fel flame back between grounding, reflects, totem forest... Even now it would take someone ages to kill someone else in pvp with fel flame. Affliction needs it too since its a single spell school spec and has nothing to kill a totem with that doesn't cost a shard or dipspit pet AI. Not to mention old content farming becomes painful. FF removal very simply removes a ton of fun. No logs were ever topped by a lock using fel flame! PVP'ers never complained about being gunned down by fel flame.

[Meggle]

I'm admittedly extremely unhappy with the removal of fel flame.

[Zevoa]

Demo definitely does not need fel flame at least from a PvE perspective. Destruction on the other hand yes.

[Nhiosis]

Demo definitely does not need fel flame at least from a PvE perspective. Destruction on the other hand yes.

We all need to continue to complain and give feedback... hoping blizzard caves and gives it back to destruction.

[fguru482]

Demo definitely does not need fel flame at least from a PvE perspective. Destruction on the other hand yes.

Please read the post "why demo needs fel flame" before posting. You can actually give a reason why that way instead of blindly making an ignorant statement. Thanks i look forward to hearing your response!

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Play against warrior or shaman and see how badly you want fel flame back between grounding, reflects, totem forest... Even now it would take someone ages to kill someone else in pvp with fel flame. Affliction needs it too since its a single spell school spec and has nothing to kill a totem with that doesn't cost a shard or dipspit pet AI. Not to mention old content farming becomes painful. FF removal very simply removes a ton of fun. No logs were ever topped by a lock using fel flame! PVP'ers never complained about being gunned down by fel flame.

All good points.

My thoughts. Top locks do use fel flame bs they dont use kc. So when they run they use fel flame.

"Hey warlock why arent you switching to the totem?!?!" Says the raid leader of a pug.

"I dont know how to attack it mista!!!!!" Says the warlock lacking a quick hit spell.

"Well then... Youre outa the group!!" (/group kick)


Two very good reasons. Ty for posting. We shall get our fel flame back.

[Krazzorx]

Because its universal to casters and healers, not just warlocks. Some may be able to cast slightly more on the move than others, but all have had their movement dps nerfed. So pve wise there is no issue.

Can't speak for pvp but for pve, its absolutely a non-issue balance wise. Even hunters now lose a good chunk of their dps through movement.

And in the OP, what does the final sentence have to do with anything? Warlocks should be equally powerful as anyone else. No more, no less. (Or at least very, very close)

[Zevoa]

Please read the post "why demo needs fel flame" before posting. You can actually give a reason why that way instead of blindly making an ignorant statement. Thanks i look forward to hearing your response!

LOL. Yeah I'm ignorant, okay friend.

Unplanned movement and blindly spamming ToC is and should always be a detriment to your damage. You have ALOT of options including Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, Teleport to fill your gcd's between movement not to mention the fact that virtually every single encounter in HM and BRF has it's movement events and mechanics telegraphed to the extent that you should be prepared for the them and can react accordingly with minimal dps loss from movement.

I suppose you want ToT era KJC back also?

[Werst]

Demo has more instants but in pvp it has very poor toolkit to generate any fury. Cast a shadowbolt you say? Lowest DPET (IE long cast time with low damage) /interrupt there goes shadow school so we can't fear things. Oh the oddball glyph/etc drain life/harvest life setup....nope /interrupt again, again no fear or anything shadow school. MC soulfires sure but they are few and far between in pvp. Pets fall over when looked at sternly so you can't even just dot up and wait to meta/demonbolt people. Not to mention the instant demonbolt starts to cast you WILL be the CC focus of the enemy team. Channel hellfire to help kill yourself vs a single target...you would likely die from lifetapping its cost and the self damaging ticks before killing your enemy even if he were afk.

The game is wider than PVE. NEEDING a high peel partner or two and a shaman healer shouldn't be a pre req to even attempt to play that half of the game. Especially with all blizzard's bleating about making it easier to pick up and participate. Even on a QoL level if you are solo'ing old content and your pet kills something in a 1 shot there goes your chance at loot from it since unlike diablo if the pet does the killing you don't get the kill. Melee kept their mobility and much of their CC. There is literally no melee you can get away from. Interrupts never DR. Even getting/staying into LoS to cast is going to suck as demo in pvp. I want a toolkit that lets me participate in more than just raids in a FUN way without needing 2x skilled and specific pvp friends to constantly babysit me. Why would they when others require far less hand holding in pvp.

[PickleballAce]

but all have had their movement dps nerfed.

About that.....

[Werst]

Some of the problem could be avoided if we did some changes like being able to dot and/or channel vs totems. Pets need to take quite a bit less damage from player targets (like 50% ish?) since you just kill the pet with incidental, soul link, or simply minimal effort and ride the lock endlessly with literally 0 counter. If we could cast DL interrupt immune or better yet a glyph to give it a short CD (like the length of its cast time) with a small up front damage component. Hellfire doing more damage to us than our targets needs to go. Especially when you examine the self damage cost, the mana cost, the lifetap GCD's, healing the lifetaps. Especially if they keep nerfing drain life. I'm fine with them nerfing DL's damage but it has to heal for more and be useable more in pvp IE interrupt protection baseline. I mean hunters have had uninterruptable steady/cobra shot forever plus high damage instants with a pet that makes any of our demons look like a goldshire/brill pet. Point being if they simply will not budge on fel flame then other mechanics need to change. In so many non hardcore pve portions of the game fel flame was such a nice QoL thing the class is less fun to play without it.

[fguru482]

LOL. Yeah I'm ignorant, okay friend.

Unplanned movement and blindly spamming ToC is and should always be a detriment to your damage. You have ALOT of options including Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, Teleport to fill your gcd's between movement not to mention the fact that virtually every single encounter in HM and BRF has it's movement events and mechanics telegraphed to the extent that you should be prepared for the them and can react accordingly with minimal dps loss from movement.

I suppose you want ToT era KJC back also?

Youre still missing the point. When we fel flame on the move without procs we are building fury. Adds to the gameplay of the spec. If you have a proc up then go meta.


Also that totem thing is still an issue. Guess we can let the melee do it

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Youre still missing the point. When we fel flame on the move without procs we are building fury. Adds to the gameplay of the spec. If you have a proc up then go meta.


Also that totem thing is still an issue. Guess we can let the melee do it

Regarding the original kc. Most fun ive ever had playing a warlock. By far.

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Too bad pvp has to ruin all the fun esp since pvp hasnt been fun since cata

[ZakAtack]

I would agree that Demo does not need Fel Flame back as much as Destro does, as Demo has far more options for casting while on the move. You point out that if you go Meta and ToC while moving without procs it is a DPS loss...why is that a bad thing? That's the point, not planning your movement ahead or reacting optimally to the situation should negatively affect your DPS. You shouldn't have a DPS increase based on whatever you do. The idea that it's harder to generate Fury on the move I feel adds just as much gameplay, because you can't just continue to generate Fury while moving as you do while standing still. You have to think about and keep track of how you're going to be moving.

As for Destro though, it's just so much more limited. With Chaos Bolt being such a long cast and Conflagrate generating charges only every 12s, and RoF costing a lot of mana, it's harder to justify the loss of Fel Flame. Immolate not being instant makes things tough too. It feels like there's just nothing to do sometimes, which does feel like lacking gameplay. I would take Fel Flame as a super low damage, non-Ember generating spell so I feel like I'm at least doing something while moving.

And I would wager personally that if my RL kicked me because the group couldn't kill a totem fast enough because the lock didn't have an instant cast, then I'd voluntarily leave.

[Zevoa]

That's the point, not planning your movement ahead or reacting optimally to the situation should negatively affect your DPS. You shouldn't have a DPS increase based on whatever you do. The idea that it's harder to generate Fury on the move I feel adds just as much gameplay, because you can't just continue to generate Fury while moving as you do while standing still. You have to think about and keep track of how you're going to be moving.

This. 10char

[Jellospally]

^ Warlocks aren't special they don't have to have this spell to cast while moving. Plan your movement.

Not sure why I care since I recently quit lock, but I played lock a little on beta. There is no reason for Demo to have it. As said above if you don't plan your dps around the fights required movement you are less skilled.

Destro(this spec is aids and should never be #1) should have something because atm it literally has nothing because a conflag which is probably on CD anyway.

[Kan]

WARNING: long post TL;DR, but i feel very strong points.


For those saying nay to fel flame i must say i disagree.
DPS with movement. The issue blizz has with all ranged classes at the moment but with lesser attacks that aren't really following your rotation and have a subsequent dps loss, are they really a problem? Look at mages, specifically their spell called scorch. yes it is not an instant like fel flame but it is usable while moving. But it infact is not apart of its main rotation besides for certain situations (filling up on that last touch of resource [heating up proc] or if you are being forced to move due to a raid mechanic or a melee warrior riding your face). Sounds A LOT like fel flame doesnt it? filling up on that last bit of resource (ember or fury) or forced movement.

For many casters they have some sort of movement dps ability that isnt much of a problem at all they can use if they need that small bit of damage. why should fel flame be the exception here and be ousted? only movement dps tool or in this case talent that shouldve been changed to balance for the other mobility changes was KJC which has already been done. fel flame should've been left alone.


Direct response to certain posts:

LOL. Yeah I'm ignorant, okay friend.

Unplanned movement and blindly spamming ToC is and should always be a detriment to your damage. You have ALOT of options including Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, Teleport to fill your gcd's between movement not to mention the fact that virtually every single encounter in HM and BRF has it's movement events and mechanics telegraphed to the extent that you should be prepared for the them and can react accordingly with minimal dps loss from movement.

I suppose you want ToT era KJC back also?

Actually our options while moving arent that great at all. for movement spamming corruption at a 2k tick? why? how is that worth it as compared to what others have? hand of guldan? for pve and pvp that should be apart of your standard rotation and you should be two stacking it, if you waiting until you have to move to use it please go back to affliction or destruction because you're using the spec very wrong. this need extends beyond just raids and furthernote, not every player would be able to prepare for that. some arent proficient in the spec and making things unnecessarily difficult isn't needed. [i dare someone to say "oh so you just want it easy? ur the reason why blizz is dumbing down classes"] there is a difference between dumbing down to the point a 4yro can play it and making a class unnecessarily difficult/complicated. PLUS, these are new raids and new things. not everyone is going to know what's coming all the time. FURTHERMORE, blindly spamming toc for cases when movement is needed? a lot of cases how do you expect us to have the fury to compensate for that movement?

Any class forced to cast EVERYTHING and have little to no instants is severely hurt if they are in that postion. (by instants im talking about instant dmg not spamming dots except with affliction since that is actually needed). im not asking for the moon. im asking just for a little bit of the cheese.. fel flame isnt a tall order.

PS unless u bring back meta form melee. since world of meleecraft might be a thing
[I know i have a ton of errors on this TL;DR but some of the comments on this post were very .. unconstructive and seemed subjective to what they thought was the ideal not the lock community as a whole]

[Zevoa]

not every player would be able to prepare for that. some arent proficient in the spec and making things unnecessarily difficult isn't needed... PLUS, these are new raids and new things. not everyone is going to know what's coming all the time. FURTHERMORE, blindly spamming toc for cases when movement is needed? a lot of cases how do you expect us to have the fury to compensate for that movement?

You don't get it. Your ability to preplan your movement to minimise it's impact on your DPS is something which will contribute to distinguishing yourself from other players who fail to do so.

Learn the encounters -> learn how to optimise your movement in these encounters in relation to class mechanics -> do more DPS

[Kan]

You don't get it. Your ability to preplan your movement to minimise it's impact on your DPS is something which will contribute to distinguishing yourself from other players who fail to do so.

Learn the encounters -> learn how to optimise your movement in these encounters in relation to class mechanics -> do more DPS

Please explain why locks are more heavily impacted by failure to preplan and just movement in general than other classes? noones is disputing the obvious: you do more dps when you preplan / maximise cast time which would mean knowing how to stay in one place for most of a fight but wheres the balance in ALL aspects of the game? dungeons arent at all always staying still, some are pretty fast paced. how do you expect us to respond to that? pvp? thats self explanatory as many others have explained. Why are you so against fel flame? is it going to detriment youre gameplay in some way for it to be here? did you dislike it? and if youre saying you dont dislike it and you have no quarrels with it why the hate?

"Your ability to preplan your movement to minimise it's impact on your DPS is something which will contribute to distinguishing yourself from other players who fail to do so." ... you must mean other locks. because if youre saying that when we are able to stand still and cast and an equally skilled player playing say a mage does the same but he is able to get by a lot easier on movement mechanics than a lock but JUST because we stand still we do more dps that IS NOT balance and should NOT be the case. i fail to see why you are against fel flame like this. just no reason for it.

[Zevoa]

Please explain why locks are more heavily impacted by failure to preplan and just movement in general than other classes? noones is disputing the obvious: you do more dps when you preplan / maximise cast time which would mean knowing how to stay in one place for most of a fight but wheres the balance in ALL aspects of the game? dungeons arent at all always staying still, some are pretty fast paced. how do you expect us to respond to that? pvp? thats self explanatory as many others have explained. Why are you so against fel flame? is it going to detriment youre gameplay in some way for it to be here? did you dislike it? and if youre saying you dont dislike it and you have no quarrels with it why the hate?

"Your ability to preplan your movement to minimise it's impact on your DPS is something which will contribute to distinguishing yourself from other players who fail to do so." ... you must mean other locks. because if youre saying that when we are able to stand still and cast and an equally skilled player playing say a mage does the same but he is able to get by a lot easier on movement mechanics than a lock but JUST because we stand still we do more dps that IS NOT balance and should NOT be the case. i fail to see why you are against fel flame like this. just no reason for it.

Demo doesn't need it, move on.

[Kan]

Demo doesn't need it, move on.

Sound and VERY constructive response. im sure the people here will take your thoughts under consideration. Anyone else have opinions to put in?
Preferably not anything as thorough as this post?