the Weakness of modern Western civilization

[jugzilla]

Now he's going to have a long, quiet drink all by himself.

Crying.

Hope you feel good about yourself.

Yeah the in-grown hairs thing was a little harsh wasn't it.

[Revi]

What can be done? Politics that benefit and encourage having children and raising them, and a conscious effort to get rid of career as the only societal measure of success. Financial and career issues can always be overcome if the cultural aspect is in place, but as our society has come to place such a high value on (and only on) traditional male characteristics and completely devalued traditional female ones it's a hard sell. Material wealth, perceived social ranking through monetary wealth and power, and facade are the measures of success. While family, health, happiness, children and any kind of non-material "wealth" is secondary, nearing on irrelevant.

People think you're strange if you're married or have kids before thirty, and people think your a loser if you're a stay-at-home mom/dad. Not on an individual level of course, many people want and even admire these things personally, but as a society we condemn it, because it gets in the way of building a career while traveling the world.

Here in Norway all the financial securities and benefits are in place to allow pretty much anyone to have 4+ kids if they so wished, but no one does, because that's just "not what you do". It's definitely a cultural issue more than anything else, and a purposeful and conscious effort to turn it around is the only thing that can change it at this point.

[jugzilla]

What can be done? Politics that benefit and encourage having children and raising them, and a conscious effort to get rid of career as the only societal measure of success. Financial and career issues can always be overcome if the cultural aspect is in place, but as our society has come to place such a high value on (and only on) traditional male characteristics and completely devalued traditional female ones it's a hard sell. Material wealth, perceived social ranking through monetary wealth and power, and facade are the measures of success. While family, health, happiness, children and any kind of non-material "wealth" is secondary, nearing on irrelevant.

People think you're strange if you're married or have kids before thirty, and people think your a loser if you're a stay-at-home mom/dad. Not on an individual level of course, many people want and even admire these things personally, but as a society we condemn it, because it gets in the way of building a career while traveling the world.

Here in Norway all the financial securities and benefits are in place to allow pretty much anyone to have 4+ kids if they so wished, but no one does, because that's just "not what you do". It's definitely a cultural issue more than anything else, and a purposeful and conscious effort to turn it around is the only thing that can change it at this point.

Very good post. Do you think maybe there is a correlation between more social programs and less childbirth?

[Deleted]

Dude...that avatar pic isn't me, and I don't know who it is in that pic. I'm a gun-toting hillbilly dude. I have a beergut and many in grown hairs. I literally did a search for "girls guns USA" to come up with that avatar, it was supposed to be temporary, but I really like that avatar lol.



So you could have have held onto India, if only you had more money?

Who isn't

India was on the brink of civil war and unrest. I think they sensed trouble.

[Sledfang]

The West isn't weak as much as it is consciously in a century long process of counter cultural suicide. The old west was defined by empires and aristocrats. The recent west was increasingly defined by the middle class. Now the middle class is shrinking (at least in the US) and the lower class is taking over. They are resentful and have adopted liberalism, which is essentially the antithesis of the traditional West and capitalism. Things will become more fair, but also far less efficient. Power will shift to the East.

[Haven]

The American empire?

How else do you call this network of military bases that threaten most of the world, along with the whole neo-colonialism policy? Declare someone with too much oil a dictator, crush that country in the name of freedom and democracy, have american oil companies take over, declare peace and freedom achieved, leave a military base or at least a marionette government behind. Rinse and repeat, American show.

Back on topic, yes, that is the case, but I wouldn't call it weakening. You should read David Friedman analysis and prognosis for 21st century. He explains how in earlier stages of civilisation, having many children increased their actual chance of survival and let parents profit from child labor (which was the case even at the start of 20th century). But now, as the level of technology and overall complexity of life increases, it takes time and money to raise a higher level inhabitant of the new technogenic world - instead of breeding for maximum children, hoping that some will make it, people nowadays invest money into one or two children to esure their guaranteed survival, aducation, and overall well-being. It has become a cultural thing. In 3rd world countries, however, old mentality still lives - and they bring it with them via immigration; these immigrant children, though, fill the lowest niches due to simple lack of education.

[Deleted]

Very good post. Do you think maybe there is a correlation between more social programs and less childbirth?

No jugzilla. The answer to this is in the higher birth rates in countries that offer noticeable child support in Europe.
France Ireland the UK.
And still they are at very low levels. The problem is cultural.
As that poster said, all kind of non material wealth is secondary. And then you find yourself childless at 50 with tears popping up every time you see a baby (anecdotal personal experience).

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Now he's going to have a long, quiet drink all by himself.

Crying.

Hope you feel good about yourself.

Pfft. Fucking women is for sissies anyway.

[Kalis]

Very good post. Do you think maybe there is a correlation between more social programs and less childbirth?

They just pointed out that Norwegians could have 4+ children if they wanted to, but typically choose not to due to the current cultural norms. Removing the social programmes would remove the ability to have 4+ children from most people even if they wanted to do so. Your idea wouldn't help to increase the childbirth rate, it would hinder it.

Is this a veiled anti-abortion thread? Is that what you mean by removing social programmes, as it is pretty much the only "social programme" we have that would decrease the birthrate due to virtually all the others we have in place doing the opposite and encouraging it?

[Mihalik]

My theory is if you do away with the socialized security nets, people will rely more on the family structure to take care of their own. I know this wont be a popular thought around here but I think thats the crux.

My question is why would that be desirable?

It severely limits personal development and independence, which are essential drivers behind technological progress and development. With other words, it what makes us Developed nations and the others Developing or underdeveloped. Return to more family oriented structures would parallel a decline in quality of life and living conditions.

[jugzilla]

The West isn't weak as much as it is consciously in a century long process of counter cultural suicide. The old west was defined by empires and aristocrats. The recent west was increasingly defined by the middle class. Now the middle class is shrinking (at least in the US) and the lower class is taking over. They are resentful and have adopted liberalism, which is essentially the antithesis of the traditional West and capitalism. Things will become more fair, but also far less efficient. Power will shift to the East.

This. So much this. I didn't really address the counter-culture thing in the OP, and that was a huge omission. Of course I'm old fashioned, I think this video represents the acceptable limit of western corruption. Girls dancing! With Guys! And they even pretend to enjoy themselves.

Is this a veiled anti-abortion thread?

ROFL

You are really special. Were in the world did you get that idea from?

[Kalis]

ROFL

You are really special. Were in the world did you get that idea from?

It was explained in the sentence right after that one you quoted.

You've asked for social programmes to be cut, but they generally encourage having children, so it makes no sense for the majority to be cut. So which ones do you want cut, if not the one most likely to reduce childbirth rates?

[Mihalik]

The West isn't weak as much as it is consciously in a century long process of counter cultural suicide. The old west was defined by empires and aristocrats. The recent west was increasingly defined by the middle class. Now the middle class is shrinking (at least in the US) and the lower class is taking over. They are resentful and have adopted liberalism, which is essentially the antithesis of the traditional West and capitalism. Things will become more fair, but also far less efficient. Power will shift to the East.

Bullshit.

The current wealth gap especially in the U.S puts to shame the worst of the worst of the Feudal times. This also seeps into politics. The middle and lower classes in the U.S have little to absolutely nothing to say in the political decision making processes which are dominated by corporate lobby groups.

The overall situation in Europe is similar, only with the Middle class still being slightly more influential, thus political corruption hasn't become a legal mater of course.

[jugzilla]

It was explained in the sentence right after that one you quoted.

You've asked for social programmes to be cut, but they generally encourage having children, so it makes no sense for the majority to be cut. So which ones do you want cut, if not the one most likely to reduce childbirth rates?

What does this have to do with you claiming this a thinly veiled anti-abortion thread?

[Mayhem]

i´m too hungover and hungry to take the time to point out what is wrong with the OPs ideas and thoughts

social security the crux of the western world... to even come up with this is quite an achievement

[Kalis]

What does this have to do with you claiming this a thinly veiled anti-abortion thread?

I asked if it was, not stated is was.

What social programmes are you asking to cut to increase childbirth rates?

[jugzilla]

i´m too hungover and hungry to take the time to point out what is wrong with the OPs ideas and thoughts

social security the crux of the western world... to even come up with this is quite an achievement

What kind of stupid post is this? I'm too tired and lazy to say anything, but no?

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I asked if it was, not stated is was.

What social programmes are you asking to cut to increase childbirth rates?

I'm just a dude on the internet, I have no control over such things, and I never will. If I was EMPEROR OF THE UNITED STATES, I wouldn't repeal any welfare program. But if you live on the dole, you don't get to vote. Get a job, pay taxes, you get the right back. I would also ween us off of this social security system, but I proably wouldn't even be able to get into that in my reign. That shit is pretty hard to touch.

[Priestiality]

This thread will surely go places. Maybe not anywhere sensible, but... places.

[jugzilla]

I was hoping this thread would inspire my fellow Americans and Europeans to make more babies! Maybe I didn't play the right kind of music.

[Sledfang]

Bullshit.

The current wealth gap especially in the U.S puts to shame the worst of the worst of the Feudal times. This also seeps into politics. The middle and lower classes in the U.S have little to absolutely nothing to say in the political decision making processes which are dominated by corporate lobby groups.

The overall situation in Europe is similar, only with the Middle class still being slightly more influential, thus political corruption hasn't become a legal mater of course.

Big wealth gaps in civilization are the norm in history and across the world. Poor Americans tend to believe that they are particularly oppressed, but really its just the norm. Go to China or Russia, you will find even less representation and arguably even bigger wealth gaps. (Depending on measure)

For much of history and for many civilizations, the lower and middle class had no say in the political process. So even if you think we don't have very much, its still more than none.

Also you said "bullshit" to my post. Does that mean you don't agree that the West has adopted relative counter culture? You dont agree that the middle class is shrinking in the US? You don't agree things will become more fair? Because that's what I said.

[Kalis]

I'm just a dude on the internet, I have no control over such things, and I never will. If I was EMPEROR OF THE UNITED STATES, I wouldn't repeal any welfare program. But if you live on the dole, you don't get to vote. Get a job, pay taxes, you get the right back. I would also ween us off of this social security system, but I proably wouldn't even be able to get into that in my reign. That shit is pretty hard to touch.

I'm not asking you to change them, I'm asking what you would remove to encourage childbirth rates and so far you've said you wouldn't repeal any, other than taking away the right to vote...which wouldn't increase childbirth rates.

Unless you are obligated to have a shag everytime you vote.