"Best in slot" nonsense from people that run normal mode.

[Soikona]

BiS from Normal? Is that a joke?

BiS is BiS, that means Heroic (Mythic) gear is BiS in most cases. Even if you don't run that content, it's still BiS. This nonsense has to stop. Normal mode is easy, you don't need "BiS" gear to do it, you need a little brain power, co-ordination and practice.

Pretty much this. BiS in normal difficulty, will be out performed by the same item but in HC, meaning the normal is not BiS!

[Mlz]

Pretty much this. BiS in normal difficulty, will be out performed by the same item but in HC, meaning the normal is not BiS!

No, it's not BiS if you look at it like this, yes. But I'll give you an example - my ele alt was 565 with 23% hit because of the bad luck I had with items. After one lucky run i went up to 567 (mostly changed the items with the same ilvl), but gained almost 10% mastery while maintaining the same haste and lowering my hit rating. It IS a significant DPS difference in raids and even if some people don't care about their performance in anything lower than HC raids, then other people do

[Deleted]

No, it's not BiS if you look at it like this, yes. But I'll give you an example - my ele alt was 565 with 23% hit because of the bad luck I had with items. After one lucky run i went up to 567 (mostly changed the items with the same ilvl), but gained almost 10% mastery while maintaining the same haste and lowering my hit rating. It IS a significant DPS difference in raids and even if some people don't care about their performance in anything lower than HC raids, then other people do

In order to gain two whole ilvls you MUST have replaced flex or lfr gear with normal/wf pieces. You dont gain two ilvls replacing mainly ilvl for ilvl.

[Mlz]

In order to gain two whole ilvls you MUST have replaced flex or lfr gear with normal/wf pieces. You dont gain two ilvls replacing mainly ilvl for ilvl.

It takes one flex item to be replaced with a normal item and then upgrade it to gain those ilvls (just test it with askmrrobot if you dont believe me), but I didn't even have 4set back then. So I mainly swapped bad items with good items eventhough their ilvl was the same.

[Deleted]

Although I must say that I find it more hilarious when pug leaders have their own idea of the loot people can roll on - for example hybrids are not allowed to roll on spirit rings because they are healer rings.

my ele alt was 565 with 23% hit because of the bad luck I had with items. After one lucky run i went up to 567 (mostly changed the items with the same ilvl), but gained almost 10% mastery while maintaining the same haste and lowering my hit rating

I guess you answered yourself

spirit is not strictly a healer stat, but when you consider the hit + spirit stat budget you get from soo items and that after 5100 (in worst case) you're overcapped, i do not find this rule dumb at all.
Hell, even as non hybrid dd, it is sometimes hard to stay below the hit cap.

ML should say it at raid start like "MS > OS. spirit item is healer MS, hydrid OS." but they rarely even tell the loot rules, let alone be so accurate

[Ulfhedinn]

If normal modes give BiS because that is all you have access to then there is a lot of people that only do LFR running around with BiS gear. With the changes in WoD hopefully the BiS stupidity will go away but I doubt it.... gear score stupidity is still here.

[Deleted]

just another excuse for lootwhores imo - anyone who isserious about raiding would have gotten heroic bis by now or at least be done with the content and not care about full bis.

It's only pugscrubs/alts left now who think they care. The likelyhood you'll need "bis" normal gear for the pisspoor stale content that can be overgeared in LFR gear with upgrades. Pretty unlikely. As I said an excuse lootwhores/scrubs throw around because "MUH EPIXX!!!1"

[Mlz]

I guess you answered yourself

spirit is not strictly a healer stat, but when you consider the hit + spirit stat budget you get from soo items and that after 5100 (in worst case) you're overcapped, i do not find this rule dumb at all.
Hell, even as non hybrid dd, it is sometimes hard to stay below the hit cap.

ML should say it at raid start like "MS > OS. spirit item is healer MS, hydrid OS." but they rarely even tell the loot rules, let alone be so accurate

I hope you do realise there's only one ring with non-spirit/hit on it for casters. For example the Laser-Slice signet has the least spirit/hit on them among the rings with sockets and has the second place overall if you consider all the rings. So rolling on it as a hybrid makes absolutely sense eventhough it has spirit on it. Thankfully Blizzard doesn't care about MS/OS, just about the "highest roll", so leaders with no common sense won't be able to do as they please as long as they have stated the "highest roll wins" at the beginning.

[Durantye]

Can the game chill out a bit in terms of people "requiring" a priority on their roll on BiS when they are not even min-maxing the game as much. This is especially ludicrous when they have the same ilevel already of an appropriate stats item (i.e. not a mage on spirit etc.) and they whine that someone with a low ilevel should not get their "bis" item. Just chill and realize getting haste instead of crit for your spec is not going to make it or break it.

I've noticed this tendency has become overblown the past 2 years. It had started as a theorycrafting tool from the best mathematicians around in terms of analyzing optimization in heroic mode. It's not meant for us scrubs running normal mode and the occasional heroic.

At the very least it should be done only on min-maxing on hard core guilds. And even there, I'm not sure someone with a lower ilevel shouldn't get "your item" if what you already have has a good ilevel and only the silliness of a secondary stat being slightly suboptimal.

- - - Updated - - -

PS. minor exception: trinkets that are approximately useless on a spec.

That depends HEAVILY, I mean in a way I agree with you but in another I couldn't disagree more. Itemization DOES make or break some specs (fire mage, fury warrior come to mind) and if you guys are running normal modes in a guild (a regular group) and you bring in someone to gear them up and someone who has ran with you guys every week's BiS belt drops and he still needs it he should get it. Skill > Seniority > Buyers > Projects that is how your loot system should work otherwise it can easily become unfair and cause people to quit.

Point being I would flip absolute shit if my HWF BiS legs dropped off IJ and they were given to a gear project, I've had it happen before and it isn't fun. Gear projects get the lowest priority on loot hands down.

Now if both players that need the item are regulars and the person who it is BiS(player X) for has a decent belt (lets say 553+8) and the person who it isn't BiS(player Y) for has (540 + 8) it would heavily depend on what each player is and what secondaries they have. i.e. X is a fire mage and has only haste and hit on his his belt and this belt has crit on it, Y is a destruction warlock who has no TRUE priority that can't bend a bit, then yes the belt should go to player X who it is BiS for.

On the other hand if Player X is the destruction warlock and player Y is say a shadow priest, then the belt should go to player Y assuming the same ilvl differences as previously because player X isn't going to notice anything with the new belt even if it technically is his BiS, because this is a BiS situation that is on low priority.

Now again with player X being a fury warrior and player Y being a ret paladin, Player X has a (553 + 8) boots w/ crit and haste on them and player Y has (540 + 8) boot w/ what ever stats on them. The boots should go to Player Y because player X already has his coveted crit stat on his boots and gaining some mastery wouldn't boost him the way it would player Y.

Now yet again remember Seniority should have priority but ONLY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, if a player has proven themselves time and again it doesn't matter if the other player is 4 years his senior they are no longer on a seniority scale. (usually this is signified by a promotion to the 'raider' rank)

[Axelond]

In your guild runs you wanna give out every single item to the guy who it will benefit most. If a HCWF item drops and you need to decide between your best raider who shows every single raid for the last year, always ranks high and never fucks up and this mediocre guy who shows up to most raids but sometimes like to spend time with his GF instead of raiding and is unsure what he wants to do in WoD you give it to the first guy always...Even if the mediocre guy only has a normal and best raider already has heroic.

That said, in pugs it's everyone who get a slight upgrade from whatever item rolls and whoever comes out on top gets the item.

[Keile]

For most items sure

But some trinkets that are BiS (Like for Destro locks: the Toxic Totem and Immerseus's binding, for example) can add a huge chunk of DPS compared to simply getting, say, your BiS boots.

I have the LFR version of the Toxic Totem and that alone does roughly 5-7% of my overall dps with it's proc alone. That is pretty significant for a single item, and the Normal version would more. Whereas I have the Flex version of the Bindings and that 7% boost to pretty much all your DPS stats is also quite significant.

[Pua]

BiS in normal difficulty, will be out performed by the same item but in HC, meaning the normal is not BiS!

Well, let's not forget that everyone has the opportunity or interest in raiding heroic (or Mythic). Essentially, that means their BiS is whatever they have the potential to get their hands on.

[HeedmySpeed]

It's a result from gear inflation.

The 600 Legendary cloak that is so common place it has influenced the expected ilvl from someone.
The same with Flex gear and the valor point upgrades.

So as the raid tier gets older, so does the expected ilvl for mains and alts.
And this is why Flex and mouthbreathing forms of raiding like LFR have been the bane of alt leveling, at least for me.

[tuesday the paladin]

If normal modes give BiS because that is all you have access to then there is a lot of people that only do LFR running around with BiS gear. With the changes in WoD hopefully the BiS stupidity will go away but I doubt it.... gear score stupidity is still here.

I honestly think it's going to be a bigger issue in WoD. You will still have the crit>haste>ms>mastery>versatility stat priorities but there will be minimal gemming, and no reforging so you have to have those most desirable stats on your gear. But with the removal of hit/exp and haste caps the BIS lists won't have to dance around reaching caps most efficiently so they'll become a bit more obvious. The BIS list will essentially become make sure every item has desired stat#1 and desired stat#2.

[Raiju]

This is why blizzard is trying to reduce people shouting BiS through all the bonuses in WoD - which I can appreciate.

Ironically not having hit/expertise/many not having haste caps (and no reforging) means BiS is actually a lot more important a call than it was before, since while previously a BiS may not be an immediate upgrade due to other pieces, that is rarely going to happen in WoD.

@tuesday the paladin due to so many stats going so quickly into your desired stat, stat balance actually becomes important as well. Whereas now we tend to get items with 3 "suitable" stats to work from for our gearing method, we not only get 4(.5?), but will be throwing all the budget we can afford with our luck at them.

[Xargoth6634]

Upgrade is an upgrade, as others have said. When it comes to handing out loot, I always hated being in guilds that would always give items to whoever it was the biggest upgrade for. In a small group of closeknit raiders who are all dedicated to gearing and upgrading their gear it works great, but in super casual raid guilds for the most part it just means that that guy who didn't bother to do the work to get in the door and has a bunch of blues on thinks he has more of a claim to the item. And sure, you can say that's a problem with the guild, but its still annoying.

[Nobleshield]

BiS from Normal? Is that a joke?

BiS is BiS, that means Heroic (Mythic) gear is BiS in most cases. Even if you don't run that content, it's still BiS. This nonsense has to stop. Normal mode is easy, you don't need "BiS" gear to do it, you need a little brain power, co-ordination and practice.

Incorrect. BiS is relative to the current level you're doing, because otherwise you can't properly gauge what's an upgrade. It's not always Heroic/Mythic level, which is unobtainable for the vast majority and therefore is of barely any use to most people. Part of the problem with using theorycrafting/BiS is this point, since unless you're one of the very tiny minority that's going to be farming mythic mode the information provided is all but useless since you aren't going to have the stat weights and therefore your "BiS" list might be different.

On topic, part of the problem is the idea that there's only one way to gear. There should be more individualism, to where it's a minuscule difference if you take Stat X over Stat Y. An upgrade should be an upgrade, it shouldn't be "Oh I'll pass, that's not my BiS item".

[Raiju]

Incorrect. BiS is relative to the current level you're doing, because otherwise you can't properly gauge what's an upgrade. It's not always Heroic/Mythic level, which is unobtainable for the vast majority and therefore is of barely any use to most people. Part of the problem with using theorycrafting/BiS is this point, since unless you're one of the very tiny minority that's going to be farming mythic mode the information provided is all but useless since you aren't going to have the stat weights and therefore your "BiS" list might be different.

On topic, part of the problem is the idea that there's only one way to gear. There should be more individualism, to where it's a minuscule difference if you take Stat X over Stat Y. An upgrade should be an upgrade, it shouldn't be "Oh I'll pass, that's not my BiS item".

Except it's not BiS and it's not at all relevant using the BiS normal mode, since the moment you kill your first boss on heroic it's no longer correct for you.

"It's well itemized for me" is correct
"It's the best piece I can get for that slot until we kill more bosses" is correct, but pedantic
"It's my best in slot relative to our current progression" is correct, but only until you kill a new boss.

You create your own problem with BiS by even looking at BiS before you're majority geared in heroic/soon to be mythic gear, because you shouldn't be looking at it.

Oh and can't properly gauge what's an upgrade? Of course you could. "Does this item have more/better stats than my current?" and "Will this items stats be wasted due to some cap I presently have (hit, expertise, haste, whatever - barely relevant in WoD anyway) are the main 2 questions that mean anyone can decide if something is an upgrade for them off the fly. The stat difference between their current and the new item is how they ascertain roughly how strong it is without any heavy theorycraft required.

[tjanson]

It's always amusing to see people complaining about flawed social system problems and framing them as "game" issues. Nothing about what you're describing is in any way new or the fault of anyone other than the morons you're running instances with. Also, no amount of bitching about it is going to change the way people play the game - for themselves, mostly. Join a guild where the leadership and members have their eyes on the bigger picture, or prepare to face this shit for eternity. Again, this is nothing new, people were claiming precedence over "BiS" items in Karazhan.

[Radish Spirit]

If it's a pug people can do whatever.

What? Since when? That's not how it works. PuGs have RLs and RLs decide loot rules. It's not just a fucking free-for-all.


My pugs are Upgrade > Itemization > Offspec. If someone in the raid has a lower ilvl than you, you don't get to roll itemization/sidegrade. Some people get pissy and leave, but fuck 'em.