Simulationcraft results for WoD

[mikklas]

Would using dance right away on the pull be a dps increase if you have a proc trinket that procs on the pull? Currently trinkets don't exist for my guild so I still have a 630 mult on use trinket that I can't seem to get rid of.

You want your on-use trinkets on a macro with shadow dance. That's one trinket solved. The other could be a proc, they usually proc within the first seconds of the fight with a duration of 15 seconds. Because of that, I generally pull, get SnD and Rupture up, then proceed into Shadow Dance just before find weakness goes off, buffing my first ambush with the armor pen, trinkets procced and enough duration left on my trinkets to last 8-10 seconds shadow dance. This may not be optimal, but it is close on every scenario, making it a safe bet for prepots and BL on pull. However, if you prepot every time, then you might want to use shadow dance 2 seconds before find weakness expires to get the 1000 agi bonus to last long enough for your clone to benefit from it as well.

Bear in mind that I have no math supporting this.

[FenrizZJ]

so my daggers are 645 x2, and I have 2 heroic weps for combat (bladefist and axe). I'm thinking of switching to combat, but the sims are saying it's pretty negligible (like ~100 dps). most of my gear is not geared towards combat, but I suppose if I switched some enchants and rerolled some crafted gear, it could be better.

what do you guys suggest?

[mikklas]

so my daggers are 645 x2, and I have 2 heroic weps for combat (bladefist and axe). I'm thinking of switching to combat, but the sims are saying it's pretty negligible (like ~100 dps). most of my gear is not geared towards combat, but I suppose if I switched some enchants and rerolled some crafted gear, it could be better.

what do you guys suggest?

In short; yes, it's worth it. However, I like subt, so here's my answer:

As everyone would say; try it out and see for yourself. Sims and real attempts have a world of difference. Combat in general performs a lot better compared to the sim results than subt does, so the 100 dps increase may as well be 1k+ depending on the fight, maybe even single target depending on how well you play subt. Also, combat scales a lot better with "bad stats" than subt does, so if you have poor itemization for both, combat suffers less.

[MickeyV]

So for sub is it still a point to cast rupture with the reflection up and then go into SD? Is the thinking behind it that it would multi off a bunch of ticks with sinister calling?
Otherwise is the opener just SnD> Rupture (or hemo for SV if you don't have the CP's yet)>SR/SD (for lust stacking with trinket procs)> ambush/backstabs > Evisc >Vanishes?

[Deleted]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but are all of the simmed results assuming that you start with 10 combo points prior to the pull? My overall dps seems to suffer drastically when I don't have these combo points however at the same time my healers are sick and tired of hearing me asking for critical heals, also the tooltip says the Honor Amongst Thieves should only work whilst in combat so is this a long running bug or what?

[Nykko]

Yeah, my daggers are really low item level than my Combat weapons. 630 Daggers, where my Combat weapons are 655 / 640.

My gear and Sec.Stats scream for Combat more than Mut or Sub. 886 Haste, 762 Crit, 493 Mastery, 239 Multistrike, 537 Versatility. = \

I'd prefer to play Mut, but I've always been a lover of the Swashbuckler style of Roguery. ^^ (That, and being able to tank raid bosses for nearly 30 seconds...)

I reaaaallly dislike Bandit's Guile.

[Bitethe]

i am literally getting booted for 19.5k dps on h butcher as combat, i literally dont think i could do anything better...

[Deleted]

So with the recent 30% buff to hemo, and the latest thing that hemo ticks can crit, is it still at best a safety net for sv or starting to look like an increase to keep up?

[Deleted]

it's an almost non-existencial dps increase if you refresh it so i guess its worth refreshing if you don't have anything other like find weakness and shadow dance going on

not a priority tho, entirely up to you. I still cba about it and almost never use it

[Nykko]

i am literally getting booted for 19.5k dps on h butcher as combat, i literally dont think i could do anything better...

Combat is pretty simple, there may perhaps be a couple things to adjust outside of getting more gear, or better optimized gear, but for a Single Target like Butcher, Sub would be a solid option to go to, if you have the Daggers to work with.

[AzeofSpadez]

i am literally getting booted for 19.5k dps on h butcher as combat, i literally dont think i could do anything better...

Meanwhile my guild with about 5 DPS'ers below 15K insist on trying The Butcher HC every week...

[Rhodianni]

i am literally getting booted for 19.5k dps on h butcher as combat, i literally dont think i could do anything better...

I just couldn't pull good numbers ( 17.5~18k ) as Combat on H Butcher ( gear not optimized with haste, Normal Highmaul MH/645 OH Dagger ). Switched to Sub with MH 645 Dagger/630 OH Dagger and my DPS stayedat around 20k~21k, specially when Healers felt like collaborating and crit healing before the pull.

[Puffah]

(...)specially when Healers felt like collaborating and crit healing before the pull.

I swear, this is the most annoying shit ever. I mean, I love being able to start at 10 CP but I hate being dependent on some lazy and angry healer. Whenever they fix this bug I don't even think I'll be sad for the DPS loss

[Leetchee]

At least, we don't get up anymore while eating when a random healer crits.

[Oggiva]

At least, we don't get up anymore while eating when a random healer crits.

That was one of the most confusing patch notes I've read ever. It's like they confirm that HAT working outside of combat is intended, even though it clearly says "in combat" on the spell.

[Wow]

That was one of the most confusing patch notes I've read ever. It's like they confirm that HAT working outside of combat is intended, even though it clearly says "in combat" on the spell.

Give it more time and they'll call it a bug and fix.

[Oggiva]

I noticed here the other day that my crimson tempest say "... bleed for an additional 253 % of the initial damage ...". After some testing around I concluded that the 240 % bleed damage is in fact 240*(1 + versatility) % bleed damage. If I'm not misunderstanding things this suggests that crimson tempest double dips in versatility. Is this modeled in any of the tools? I mentioned it on #ravenholdt, but people seemed too busy finding their pitchforks.

I've tested this, and the bleed damage does only 240 % of the initial hit even though the tooltip says otherwise.

It is, remember these sims are essentially just working on the idea that you're fighting or or multiple target dummies. In practise, the FoK perk really helps here, but don't be afraid to rupture a few and push the rest of your points into CT spam if it means you'll make less mistakes. In the short period of time that the adds are alive will mean the difference between the two outputs shouldn't be disastrously high.

Going by the numbers from my earlier post we are looking at a 129,480 CT vs a 70,152 rupture. At 7 targets the d/e of CT is higher than that of rupture, and from 5 targets and up the d/cp is higher. While these numbers might be a result of the way I played the fight it does make me wonder why simcraft would show a dps increase to use rupture all the way up to 8 targets.

[Slipspace]

Can someone tell me what I have to do to make subterfuge + glyph of vanish worth it? ShC is saying it's a 400 dps increase over shadow focus. Am I just supposed to ambush twice but time the second ambush at the last possible moment of vanish? Am I supposed to be able to ambush three times? I don't really get why the glyph helps.

I know it shouldn't happen but it's really annoying when you have subterfuge up and use shadowdance and it flips your stealth bar back to your normal bar because you didn't wait for subterfuge to drop. Like when you bloodlust on pulls and want to pop your cooldowns.

[MickeyV]

put /cancelaura subterfuge in your shadow dance macro to avoid that

[fierydemise]

Still lots of analysis to be done on this but an interesting result to share from SimC:


This is dps for each weapon speed combination normalized to slow/slow for different target counts (1-10). This uses only BF for AoE but mixing in CTs shouldn't have a major effect. This is using my current gear, ilvl 670 without weapon enchants.

Lots of analysis to do done to see if this result generalizes, stat weight variation and probably other stuff but I'm throwing it out for discussion.

Credit to Rosvall in IRC for originally noting this effect.