Old gods & The Void (possible WoD spoilers)

[Splub]

I think Old Gods are what Naaru eventually become when they enter the Void state.

[Fatalfuror]

Just before you reach Yogg-Saron in Ulduar, you come up against Faceless ones, they summon voids to shield them from damage (who you in turn must destroy). This suggests a direct link between the Void and the Old Gods.

It suggests nothing.

That's like saying all Human Priests who cast Power Word: Shield or any other Light-based magic are directly related to a Naaru. Just because a particular being uses a particular school of magic, does not mean that their intrinsic nature is of that element. Anything exceptionally strong is capable of wielding multiple types of magic in WoW. Just look at what Khadgar does in the recent continuation of the legendary questline. Or the fact that the Old Gods literally enslaved the Elementals on Azeroth.

Old Gods could probably use Light-based magic if they decided they needed to.

Personally, I don't think Old Gods exist separately in terms of realms or another universe. They originated within the same one as the Titans and everything else, they just manifest in an extreme way. Where the Titans are supposed to be hyper-rational technological powerhouses, the Old Gods are unknowable primordial beings - basically the complete opposite. Titans' forms are rigid and unyielding. Old Gods' forms are undulating and constantly changing, evolving. We know pretty much exactly what to expect from a Titan. We know next to nothing of what to expect from an Old God - either in physical form or in psychological terms.

In many ways, the story of the Old Gods vs. the Titans is a metaphor for the intrinsic battle going on as time progresses within a Universe. The Old Gods represent a faction that not only embodies the primal, chaotic forces of the elements that rage ceaselessly around the beginnings of most things (for instance, Azeroth having been more inhospitable in its early years when the Old Gods reigned and the elements raged across its surface - much like a newly-born planet in the real world) - but the inevitable reality of a universe that will err ever-onward towards maximum entropy. That is, they will bring about the stopping of time, of life, of everything by consuming the energy available in a system. The Titans attempt to bring Order to the Universe so that they can slow this process down, so that the rate of increase in entropy within the system is decreased.

The Old Gods' true nature is probably of an extremely old organism, evolved far beyond anything else in WoW. They consume PLANETS for energy. This is why there are multiple references to them being an "infection", and their targets as "hosts". They're like gigantic viruses, spreading themselves across the cosmos in order to consume energy - to suck planets dry, hijack their purpose for its own - create copies of itself, repeating that scenario over and over.

And that, ultimately, makes them a threat. Fully unleashed, they must consume at a frightening pace - which increases the rate of a system's evolution towards maximum entropy. That end point is "anti-light", "dead-light" - necrophotic. Without available energy, there is no life. They're like living black holes. That's what makes them dangerous.

[Aquamonkey]

Personally, I don't think Old Gods exist separately in terms of realms or another universe. They originated within the same one as the Titans and everything else, they just manifest in an extreme way.

Titans arose from the universe. Old Gods come from another plane and it takes a lot for them to become manifested in a physical plane.

[Deleted]

another plane

like the void

/sunglasses

seriously OP, it's obvious that they're void monsters, just do some quests in Draenor and you'll see

here's a hint: Impsy

[Hooded Mage]

Blizzard wouldn't give the faceless ones that particular ability of all the different abilities they could of given them unless they were trying to make a point, Blizzard love dropping tiny hints, that you have to be looking for in order to find them out.

Where is it said that the Old Gods consume planets?

They want chaos not power or energy or any of these, they can not be reasoned with they can not be bought, they just want to see the world burn for no apparent reason, that is why they are so dangerous.

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"If you don't mind, I'm trying VERY hard to prevent all of our worlds from collapsing into the void, AGAIN.

Oh, right, you helped me last time, didn't you? Well, you've got great timing. I'm in need of another Gate-Key.

Well? Go on! The infinite horrors of the abyss aren't just going to wait until you've had a nap! Having that many tentacles makes them really antsy."

Ever seen a void being with tentacles?

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"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

That infers that they are not the polar opposite of the Titans, the legion is the polar opposite of them.

The Old Gods are something else.

I think you are looking to logically explain an illogical creation, again i come back to the Joker from Batman.

[Pizzakid2093]

really do not think this warrants a spoiler tag. it is just speculation, and not the deepest at that. Void isn't personally interesting to me, we are going to get things way too muddy between the Twisting Nether and the void for people who don't stay completely on top of their lore, but ultimately the void has to do with a Na'aru and the destructive part of its life-cycle.

[Aquamonkey]

Where is it said that the Old Gods consume planets?

Tribunal of Ages says Old Gods are parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes that infested Azeroth as their host.

They want chaos not power or energy or any of these, they can not be reasoned with they can not be bought, they just want to see the world burn for no apparent reason, that is why they are so dangerous.

The Old Gods ruled over an empire of worshipers. Certainly seems as though they like power.

"If you don't mind, I'm trying VERY hard to prevent all of our worlds from collapsing into the void, AGAIN.

Oh, right, you helped me last time, didn't you? Well, you've got great timing. I'm in need of another Gate-Key.

Well? Go on! The infinite horrors of the abyss aren't just going to wait until you've had a nap! Having that many tentacles makes them really antsy."

Ever seen a void being with tentacles?

Yes. There are 2 classes with abilities that summon void tentacles.

"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

That infers that they are not the polar opposite of the Titans, the legion is the polar opposite of them.

The Old Gods are something else.

I think you are looking to logically explain an illogical creation, again i come back to the Joker from Batman.

People keep quoting this bullshit like it means something... It was said by a fanatical follower of the Old Gods and has been debunked by Blizzard multiple times. Old Gods can die and have died, a lot.

[Deleted]

The void is what empowers dead to become..... undead its clearly the opposite of the light as you see how naaru can become polar opposites of itself.

If im right i read somewhere on wowpedia that the void attaches the soul imperfectly to the body when resurrected using void magic , thats why they are rotting and undead because thier soul isnt back into the body perfectly.

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It could be related to old gods in a unknown way or its just the magic old gods and its armies mostly employ, who knows.

But it clearly is the force the necromancers employ to create undead.

[Hooded Mage]

Tribunal of Ages says Old Gods are parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes that infested Azeroth as their host.

The Old Gods ruled over an empire of worshipers. Certainly seems as though they like power.

Yes. There are 2 classes with abilities that summon void tentacles.

People keep quoting this bullshit like it means something... It was said by a fanatical follower of the Old Gods and has been debunked by Blizzard multiple times. Old Gods can die and have died, a lot.

Yes but many parasites find a host but do not consume it. Cancer doesn't consume its host it corrupts it. The Old Gods seem to be more like that.

Whether they like it or not is irrelevant? That is not what they are about, they are not in it for the power, they are in it for the chaos, the destruction.

So? We are no talking about other things here, this is a thread about the connection between the Old Gods and the Void. And i have said that Blizzard specifically put the ability of the void walker protecting the faceless one on purpose, there is no 'its class' discussion here.

Name me Old Gods that have died except Y'Shaarj, who was taken down by the Titan's the Old Gods do not die, hence Cho'gall looking to resurrect C'thun, the Old Gods come back they will always, if they are not outside the cycle then what is that? The are either ancients or eternals and do not die entirely.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes but many parasites find a host but do not consume it. Cancer doesn't consume its host it corrupts it. The Old Gods seem to be more like that.

Parasites feed off their host. The Old Gods corrupted the titan systems so they could assimilate the planet. They feed off the planet so much that it dies.

Cancer absolutely consumes its host. It doesn't corrupt healthy cells into cancerous ones. It multiplies, sucks up resources, and impedes the function of healthy cells.

Whether they like it or not is irrelevant? That is not what they are about, they are not in it for the power, they are in it for the chaos, the destruction.

They had an entire civilization/empire built up that worshiped them, with temples and citadels and all that shit. That is not chaos and destruction. Plus, they need harbingers to travel the universe to sucker people into summoning them from their home plane.

Also:

"One in particular, a servant of the Old Gods known as Harbinger Skyriss, seeks to usher in his masters' vision of conquering all of the worlds in the universe."

Name me Old Gods that have died except Y'Shaarj, who was taken down by the Titan's the Old Gods do not die, hence Cho'gall looking to resurrect C'thun, the Old Gods come back they will always, if they are not outside the cycle then what is that? The are either ancients or eternals and do not die entirely.

This is nonsensical.... I don't understand how this cognitive dissonance can be upheld. You gave an example of one dying, yet maintain that they can't die. Then say this inability to die is the reason why another dead Old God needs to be resurrected from death.

C'Thun died. There was an entire plot about it needing to be resurrected.
Yogg-Saron died. It even says that its corpse will choke the land.
Y'Shaarj died. Only its heart was brought back to life and then that got drained into a withered husk.

But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead. (Source)

Garrosh brings heart of Y'shaarj back to life using the pools of Pandaria. Fortunately, the whole God isn't resurrected. (DaveKosak)

Algalon inspects worlds for Old God infestation and has seen many of them scoured clean.

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

"The Titans actually did kill a lot."

[Cl4nK]

Y'Shaarj died. Only its heart was brought back to life and then that got drained into a withered husk.

But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead. (Source)

Garrosh brings heart of Y'shaarj back to life using the pools of Pandaria. Fortunately, the whole God isn't resurrected. (DaveKosak)

This is the only part where I disagree. Mainly because Blizzard dropped the ball on it's writing. Everything ahead is my personal opinion and I'm not saying it is the truth or canon in anyway.

Y'shaarj is everything but dead. His still beating heart was locked up by the titans. Why build the entire Valley of Eternal Blossons and it's facilities to guard the remains of a dead Old God? If it's dead, why did they preserve it's heart in the first place? How are the Sha still alive when his heart is dead, however they die for good when the heart dies a 2nd time? Because it was drained?

Not to mention that his heart doesn't get ressurrected when Garrosh brings to the pools of Pandaria. The heart was already beating before it was dropped, and in the cinematic of Garrosh vs Taran'zhu, it even corrupts a butterfly before being thrown into the pools.

It's just like that Cataclysm Question about the Old Gods all over again. The very intro of the Cataclysm shows Deathwing smashing up the world pillar and tearing his way through the maelstrom. Deepholm entire chain quest is basically about restoring the world pillar to stabilize the world. But in the next Blizzcon, they say it was the effect of the deaths of C'thun (even thou he's been dead for I don't know, 4 years) and Yogg-saron (which takes place at least 1 year before the Cataclysm).

Blizzard doesn't have a good answer other than "it's cool" and just makes up the answers in the spot.

[Hooded Mage]

Y'shaarj is dead yeah? How can he whisper to Garrosh? Just because their physical manifestation is destroyed does that mean they are dead? No i think not. I'm not very good at structure so it would seem nonsensical but Cenarius died and came back, Avianna died and came back etc... the list goes on. Did they really die? No they were just banished to another plane, the Old Gods are the same.

I can tell you enjoy using big words but for younger viewers who may view this thread keep it simple and easy to follow. And no this isn't for my benefit i can keep up, younger people wont be able to.

Also remember that the Blizzard teams that give out answers at Blizzcon and the like can not be held to every single word they say, they're not trained politicians and therefore mistakes can be made.

Also with C'thun would it be unreasonable to think that maybe he didn't want to wait for a few thousand years to manifest again if he can be brought back a lot quicker since Blizzard themselves have said the point in time that the Warcraft universe focuses on is a pivotal point in the history of the Warcraft universe. If C'thun waits for a few thousand years he is going to miss all the fun.

Also back on topic... Yogg shows you the visions about Garona etc... If he had a connection to the void, then he could manipulate the energies used to force her under Gul'dan's control and have a part in the whole situation.
Now Frostmourne was crated by the Neztherim, they were around even before Sargeras lost the plot and were involved in some pretty dark magics, such as mind control and the like.

"The nefarious, scheming demons turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them into unthinking hatred and mistrust. Sargeras defeated them easily, but their corruption affected him deeply. Shaken by the evil of demons, Sargeras began to despair of his task and gradually slipped into a brooding depression."

Sounds a lot like how the Old Gods operate. What if the Naztherim and the Old Gods are connected?

Rumours of Ashbringers core being that of pure light would explain how it shattered Frostmourne a blade of pure darkness.

[The Stormbringer]

I could see the Titans existing as a universal counter-balance to the chaos of the Old Gods, I just like the idea that they cause so much chaos because they aren't from 'our' universe at all, and they have no balancing force. The Titans efforts to restore order are not some cosmic chess match but a desperate defense from invaders completely foreign to existence itself, who have a very real chance of bringing the whole thing down into ruin.

Yak, your ideas around the Old Gods and Titans really are some of the most interesting ones. The Orrary of C'thun has to be one of my favorites, and I wish so badly that it was a thing (and the cause of the Infinites as you explained).

[Aquamonkey]

Y'shaarj is dead yeah? How can he whisper to Garrosh? Just because their physical manifestation is destroyed does that mean they are dead? No i think not. I'm not very good at structure so it would seem nonsensical but Cenarius died and came back, Avianna died and came back etc... the list goes on. Did they really die? No they were just banished to another plane, the Old Gods are the same.

Yes. They died. Being resurrected/reincarnated does not negate the fact that someone died. Everything has a soul and can communicate from beyond the grave. Every single DK and member of the Forsaken died and came back. Gul'dan died and was able to whisper to people through his skull. This is not something special to Old Gods and it does not elevate them above death.

Also remember that the Blizzard teams that give out answers at Blizzcon and the like can not be held to every single word they say, they're not trained politicians and therefore mistakes can be made.

Dave Kosak said it repeatedly, on different occasions.... This is one of the main guys in charge of the story.

Also with C'thun would it be unreasonable to think that maybe he didn't want to wait for a few thousand years to manifest again if he can be brought back a lot quicker since Blizzard themselves have said the point in time that the Warcraft universe focuses on is a pivotal point in the history of the Warcraft universe. If C'thun waits for a few thousand years he is going to miss all the fun

C'Thun only manifested once, when it first infected Azeroth. It was beat down and imprisoned in the ground by the titans. While sleeping and enfeebled, it influenced the bugs in Ahn'Qiraj and started the War of the Shifting Sands. They were locked up behind the Scarab Wall. During WoW, C'Thun woke up and escaped to the surface.


Just because those OGs died doesn't mean they can't be resurrected in the future (except maybe Y'Shaarj). Or people just summoning other Old Gods entirely.

[Cl4nK]

Dave Kosak said it repeatedly, on different occasions.... This is one of the main guys in charge of the story.

While this is true, you shouldn't also take every single word he says to the letter. You gotta remember that Blizz plays by the rule of cool more than anything.

[Wildmoon]

Lingering power left on some artifacts or items doesn't really mean the owners of the power are not dead. Gul'Dan was certainly dead but his skull still rocked.

[Hooded Mage]

Yeah i agree, but it isn't artifacts the Old gods communicate through, it's whispers, Y'shaarj is completely destroyed (atleast physically) but he still whispers to Garrosh, so is he dead or alive? It doesn't make sense.

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah i agree, but it isn't artifacts the Old gods communicate through, it's whispers, Y'shaarj is completely destroyed (atleast physically) but he still whispers to Garrosh, so is he dead or alive? It doesn't make sense.

Artifacts? Gul'dan spoke through a piece of his corpse. C'Thun whispered through its corpse. Y'Shaarj wasn't completely destroyed, it was whispering through its heart (a piece of its corpse). All of them were dead.

And spirits can just wander around and talk to people without artifacts.

[Hooded Mage]

Gul'dan died and was able to whisper to people through his skull.

You said through his skull, the skull of guldan is a powerful artifact yeah? So your words not mine

[bobsmith06]

I have a few questions. i dont normally post here just lurk because i love reading your guys thoughts.
-If old gods exist for chaos, would they not want the legion to come to azeroth.
-Do they get more powerful in chaos? if so would this give them strength needed to break titans bonds?

-Assuming the legion comes to azeroth do they and the old gods not have the same purpose save the destruction of the planet?
- if they dont care about destruction of azeroth. how does the old god travel? via planes? or does a single old god exist in the universe regaurdless of deminsions.

-Would the old gods and sargeras not want to join forces?