Old gods & The Void (possible WoD spoilers)

[Aquamonkey]

You said through his skull, the skull of guldan is a powerful artifact yeah? So your words not mine

It's just a piece of his corpse. Just like C'Thun's corpse or Y'Shaarj's heart. Plenty of regular spirits can communicate without any piece of their bodies.

[Hooded Mage]

It's just a piece of his corpse. Just like C'Thun's corpse or Y'Shaarj's heart. Plenty of regular spirits can communicate without any piece of their bodies.

No it's not, his skull was infused with demonic power given to him from Kil'Jaeden. His skull is not like others, it was an artifact of extremely powerful energies. It alone corrupted felwood and turned Illidan from a night elf into a hybrid demon/elf.

[Aquamonkey]

No it's not, his skull was infused with demonic power given to him from Kil'Jaeden. His skull is not like others, it was an artifact of extremely powerful energies. It alone corrupted felwood and turned Illidan from a night elf into a hybrid demon/elf.

KJ didn't infuse Gul'dan's skull with power... Gul'dan had that power himself and it carried over to his corpse. The skull just happened to be a piece picked up by an orc on his way out. It's just following the law of sympathy.

And again, plenty of spirits can communicate without anything. It's nothing special to Gul'dan or Old Gods.

[Hooded Mage]

Guldan was just a normal shaman until he betrayed Ner'zul and was gifted with power by Kil'Jaeden, by the time he dies in Sargeras' tomb he was extremely powerful. He was more than just an orc, the power he was given could probably be compared to when Sargeras' found Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden and empowered them (but with Guldan obviously not to the same level).

In the general term yes, in the specific way the Old Gods do it no. No one communicates through death like they do, they are not a fragment that persists through death, they are in control of what they can say and who they choose to speak to.

Also Kil'Jaeden did empower Guldan after he betrayed Nerzul

[Aquamonkey]

Gul'dan speaking through a piece of his corpse is no different than the Old Gods. Those particular examples are of the law of sympathy. But communicating after death is nothing special and can be done without any kind of artifact, from the spirit itself.

[Hooded Mage]

Lol ok it seems like you're just playing devils advocate for the sake of a counter argument and ignoring what I have been saying

[Aquamonkey]

Just to be clear, the law of sympathy is the magical imprint someone leaves behind on an object they handle.

Khadgar's mouth formed into a tight line. His mind raised and his heart thundered in his chest. "Sympathy," he said at last.
[...]
Khadgar took a deep breath. "One of the magical laws. When someone handles an item, they leave a part of their own magical aura or vibration attached to the item. As auras vary with individuals, it is possible to connect to one by affecting the other. In this way a lock of hair may be used in a love charm, or a coin may be tracked back to its original owner."
[...]
"The more someone uses an item, the stronger the resonance," said Khadgar quickly. "So therefore an item that experiences a lot of handling or attention will have a stronger sympathy."
--The Last Guardian

A piece of someone's actual body will have the strongest sympathy. This is probably how the Blood Curse works to enslave people.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol ok it seems like you're just playing devils advocate for the sake of a counter argument and ignoring what I have been saying

I'm not ignoring it, it's just wrong. Old Gods can and have died. This has been explicitly stated by WoG multiple times. Them being dead and speaking through pieces of their corpses doesn't change the fact that they died. And this feat is done by much lesser beings. And can be done without any kind of artifact, by spirits just wandering around.

[Hooded Mage]

And i will come round to it again... They are only physically dead, except for Y'shaarj, who was destroyed by some of the most powerful entities in the Warcraft universe. And someone mentioned earlier, why was such a massive complex built for just a heart? Why not destroy the heart?

Getting back on topic because we are getting no where here, the Naztherim and the Old gods operate in almost the same way (whispers, turning societies against each other and general mind control crap). As nothing is known about the origins of each of these ancient evils, is it such a stretch to suggest a connection?

[Combatbutler]

And i will come round to it again... They are only physically dead, except for Y'shaarj, who was destroyed by some of the most powerful entities in the Warcraft universe. And someone mentioned earlier, why was such a massive complex built for just a heart? Why not destroy the heart?

Getting back on topic because we are getting no where here, the Naztherim and the Old gods operate in almost the same way (whispers, turning societies against each other and general mind control crap). As nothing is known about the origins of each of these ancient evils, is it such a stretch to suggest a connection?

Since blizz came out and said the old gods can and have been killed quite often any kind of argument is destroyed, unless blizz changes their stance on this there really isn't much to debate.

[Aquamonkey]

And i will come round to it again... They are only physically dead,

And how is that different from everyone else? Dead is dead, but everyone has a soul that continues after death. Look at every single Forsaken, or all the various spirits lingering around in the Warcraft universe.

except for Y'shaarj, who was destroyed by some of the most powerful entities in the Warcraft universe. And someone mentioned earlier, why was such a massive complex built for just a heart? Why not destroy the heart?

Y'Shaarj got its heads lopped off by mogu. The titans locked up the heart just like they locked up what they thought was C'Thun's corpse. And what massive complex? It was just a vault.

Getting back on topic because we are getting no where here, the Naztherim and the Old gods operate in almost the same way (whispers, turning societies against each other and general mind control crap). As nothing is known about the origins of each of these ancient evils, is it such a stretch to suggest a connection?

Nathrezim started off as an enlightened race. They became demons long before the titans ever encountered Old Gods.

Old Gods come from another plane and it takes a lot for them to manifest in our physical plane.

[Hooded Mage]

Yogg-Saron's puzzle box whispers to players "the void sucks at your soul it is content to feast slowly". Why mention the void? If they have 0 connection to it?

Also I'm not talking about what the Natherzim were once, I'm talking about how they operate and the similarities between them and the Old Gods.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes, they employ similar methods, but that doesn't mean there's a connection between Nathrezim and Old Gods. Titans fought and defeated demonic Nathrezim long before they ever encountered Old Gods. And what the Nathrezim were matters because something turned them from an enlightened race into vampiric demons corrupting other planets. If there was a connection, it would have been made back when the titans defeated them.

And you pmuch asked for an explanation for their origins...

[Hooded Mage]

Looking around some more, check this out

http://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog...de-for-draenor

I'm not the only one connecting the dots.

"Based on a quote from Herald Volazj, a Faceless One and a boss from Wrath of the Lich King, it’s stated, 'Gaze into the void. It is the perpetuity in which they dwell."

[Octavius]

Blizzard's doing a mess. I mean, they are still adding background-universe making elements without explaining, and coinciling, the past ones. And this madness of multiple universes makes the problem even worse. What the hell is the nether? I know, it's demons realm, it's where magic comes from etc... But is it one in all universe? This would mean there should be only one legion, and We have already two. Then the void: someone assumes is related to the nether, someone that the void IS the nether indeed but We really don't know. The only thing We know is that void is related to undeath.... So the lich king had void powers? And If he had, wasn't he created by the legion? Is the legion related to the void? Some hints point the old gods are related too, they can even come directly from the void.
Still, what about the emerald dream? Why there's the dream in outland (which seems azeroth's very same)? We know elune is strongly related to the dream... But Velen stated she's connection with the naaru and blizzard said he knows what he's saying. So, why elune, which is a naaru-like being (and then made of light) related to the dream? What about the titans?
Everything seems connected. It doesn't makes sense. It's chaos, they are doing old gods' job.

[Hooded Mage]

I know Blizzard have the next 2 expansions planned and are working on them already.

The Void and the Twisting Nether are two different places, Blizzard has said this before. Contrary to what people say i think Blizzard knows what they are doing, they have a master plan and even though everything seems a mess it will end up being pieces of a much larger puzzle, stretching out over years.
I think the Old Gods are from the void, this would explain the visions Yogg shows to players concerning Garrona (dark magics used to enslave her) the creation of the Dragon Soul (again dark magics used to create it) and Arthas torturing Bolvar.

Arthas is described as a lost and scared child after his downfall, what has he got to be afraid of? I suspect once he fused with Nerzul and became the Lich King, dark powers came about.

I will even go out on a limb here and suggest that Sargeras was ultimately corrupted by the Old Gods (maybe not our Old Gods but others).

[Aquamonkey]

But is it one in all universe? This would mean there should be only one legion, and We have already two.

Kosak said AU is completely separate universe, with its own Nether.

Still, what about the emerald dream? Why there's the dream in outland (which seems azeroth's very same)?

Emerald Dream is the titan blueprint for Azeroth. It's not the same one as Outland's, but they are connected. Draenor was Ordered by the titans.

We know elune is strongly related to the dream... But Velen stated she's connection with the naaru and blizzard said he knows what he's saying. So, why elune, which is a naaru-like being (and then made of light) related to the dream? What about the titans?

Elune doesn't really have anything to do with the Dream directly. She's a deity that arose from Azeroth itself. Her son is very connected to the Dream through Malorne and having been raised by Ysera.

Velen didn't say Elune was connected to naaru, he said descriptions of her powers were similar. Basically praying and receiving blessings.

I will even go out on a limb here and suggest that Sargeras was ultimately corrupted by the Old Gods (maybe not our Old Gods but others).

Metzen joked about that when the eredar retcon happened in TBC, but Blizzard just made it other demons.

[Octavius]

yeah so if we have 2 legions now we have two DIFFERENT twisting nethers, so the nether doesn't trascend time. The Old gods do. Or so it seems from quotes. Velen said that he has an impression/sensation about elune being something similar to naaru, not only from a description. Something tyrande took very badly. Poor Velen.

[Deleted]

The whole concept of eldritch beings that Old Gods are is simply adopted by Blizzard, not created by them. That's why it's really hard to give reasonable and logical explanation as to what these creatures are and what their goals are. The Mythos was left mysterious and complex on purpose by Lovecraft and Derleth, hence the many uses of words like "eldritch", "horror" and "madness". Sure, Blizzard could reach into a clear conclusion to satisfy certain parties, but that would ultimately erase the need for such entities.

As much as I love speculating on the subject, a satistying answer to me is that Old Gods are of the primordial chaos, who adhere to completely different laws of nature. To learn the truth about them would be million mind blast crits and a glimpse of their true form would melt your face (gameplay-mechanics, mind you).