Thread: [TV] The Flash!

  1. #4361
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I knew some of the things that happened in the finale were coming but I wasn't sure. The one that caught me off balance was.. Iris related. That was like "Oh ok....that's a thing." Also I'm not a fan of "I use my powers makes me more evil or whatever." Even from a "It makes me more cold to stuff" Honestly, that seems dumb.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  2. #4362
    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    It's known as a boostrap paradox or a causal loop; no need to make up new terms for a well-established time travel trope.
    I didn't make up anything, I made a value judgment. This trope is shit tier, together with crap like Teh Chosen One and other similar abominations that ruin the plot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    This is the same Barry who was stupid enough to create Flashpoint even after the Speed Force told him that he needed to learn to accept the death of his mother, because greater losses were in his future. This is the same Barry who, just last episode used time travel to solve a problem even after being repeatedly told by both his friends and enemies how dangeous time travel is, and how many problems it can cause. This is the same Barry who, after having seen Iris' death play out both in front of his eyes and in his memory over and over, still thought that somehow begging Savitar not to kill her would change things, even after having seem himself say the exact same things before. Emotional Barry is not Smart Barry. That Barry was still capable of creating time remnants in a moment of rage and despair to try to stop Savitar.

    What changed? Well, H.R. died. Barry was confronted with the realization that it wasn't just Iris who would suffer because of his decisions. His life with Iris was preserved by H.R. giving up his life with Tracy. Maybe that was enough to finally make Barry realize that it wasn't just his future with Iris that would suffer from the choices he made.
    So death of H.R., pretty much the 15th wheel of the team is what brought some sense into Barry's mind, but the knowledge of the circumstances of Iris' death (including seeing it prior to it happening) did not? Super plausible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Why not just try to kill Iris again once Savitar remembered the changes? Well, maybe he realized/felt/remembered that Barry would now never make a time remnant to stop him no matter what he did, plus he already had Plan B (Become a God) in the works, so why rely on his past self anymore? If you want things done right, do them yourself.
    Him becoming a god was his plan all along (although I'm not sure how killing Iris was supposed to achieve it since it pretty much tied up the loop post Flashpoint alteration, but it's not like the writers bothered fleshing out his plan), this was just another path to that goal. And even if Barry was secretly in love with H.R. and wouldn't make any time remnants after H.R. and H.R. alone died, killing Iris would still fuck him up emotionally so that he wouldn't be a nuisance with Savitar's next plan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Savitar is that fast, yes, but without the suit, using that level of speed would destroy him; it's why the suit exists. Eobard Thawne and Barry both only ever made speed mirages in a small area; the same room, or one platform of a train station. Zoom needed to create time remnants in order to be truly in two distantly separated places at once. Savitar probably was fast enough to make speed mirages across town, but only with his suit on.
    With the suit on he appeared to be all over the city at once. But OK, let's assume that without the suit he can't even time mirage in two places over that difference. Then why approach Barry without the suit? It's not like he had hearing issues in the suit, he could have heard Barry out just fine in it, while maintaining a time mirage to watch over Cisco. Better yet, why go to Star Labs when he wasn't interested in Barry's offer? If it was for stalling, then again, suit would have worked better. Run to star labs in super fast mode (where he's basically invisible even to other speedsters), plant the philosopher's stone, kill them all, watch over Cisco.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    The singularity at the end of Season One was because the wormhole apparently wasn't closed in time, despite them thinking they'd done so (after all, Stein didn't start the clock the moment it opened, and they shut it down at the last second). Besides, if that were truly caused by a paradox, Ronnie blowing up inside it wouldn't be enough to "fix" time being broken.
    I guess I remembered that wrong. Well, it's been a while since I watched those episodes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Savitar existed before Flashpoint; his origin just didn't involve killing Iris. Originally, his life was a causality loop, with Barry creating a time remnant to stop him only for that time remnant to become him. Tracy created the prison for Savitar, and Savitar was trapped in it for all eternity. Since the Speed Force is technically all places and all times simultaneously, the prison always existed once it was created, and it always had Savitar as a prisoner.

    Flahspoint changed that, allowing Savitar to escape and then try to ensure his own creation sooner by killing Iris, which led to the series of events of this season where he eventually broke his own origin. Much like Eobard Thawne trying to create Flash early led to Eobard never existing.

    And we knew from Jay and Savitar that someone needed to be in the prison, but that doesn't mean that the destability caused by the prison being empty would immediately explode into a Red Skies over Central City event; maybe it needed time to build up, like a tropical depression becoming a hurricane. Maybe if Star Labs hadn't been wrecked the would've gotten an alert of some kind of energy buildup in progress, but since they didn't have that at their disposal they only detected the instability when it was visible to the naked eye of everyone.
    I know what Jay said. But this is the "what" of the issue and ignores the "why" that I raised. What was so special about the prison being empty that caused Speedforce to act like that? And the fact that the creation of the prison made it exist across all time simultaneously still glosses over the fact it wasn't always the case and the repercussions that holds. Because prior to the creation of the prison, the lack of prison was also a trait of Speedforce that existed throughout all time simultaneously. There was still an overwrite and a change to the nature of the Speedforce.

    So how is it that the change of the prison losing its prisoner had bigger effect on the real world than the introduction of the prisoner AND the prison? The latter is the bigger change. Hell, the fact that things in Speedforce happen across all time raise a question why did the results of the prison becoming empty affect only a specific time in the real world. Then there's the part about how did Black Flash not chase Reverse Flash prior to its creation given how it is a Speedforce entity (that can time travel on top of that).


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Technically, we never saw Tracy get over anything or agree to help anybody. Harry tried to convince her to stay, she seems to be wavering, then we cut to Savitar saying why both he and Barry existing wouldn't work ("how do we explain me at the wedding?"), which him eventually zooming off to bring Cisco and Caitlin back but actually leaving the Philosopher's Stone to explore. We then see everyone left in the building (including Harry and Tracy) rush into the cortex in response to the alarm. Now Tracy would stay to help stop Savitar, easy.
    Please, if there was more power of friendship involved in that scene, Earth 2 Wells would transform into Naruto.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Plot-induced slowness is a hallmark of this show. During season one, we saw Barry manage to have reflexes fast enough to dodge a bullet he neither saw nor heard being fired while it was in the process of penetrating his skin. I'm guessing the show writers included that as a Moment of Awesome for the Flash, since it was only the 12th episode and they were still exploring the limits of his powers, but later realized "Oh fuck, if we have Barry's reflexes actually be that fast, nothing can ever hit him," so since then it seems like the writers are pretending his reflexes actually aren't that fast. Otherwise, nothing would ever hit any speedster as fast or faster than Barry. Eobard wouldn't have been hit by Oliver's nanite-filled arrow. Zoom wouldn't have been hit by Cisco's anti-speed dart. The Rival wouldn't have been shot by Flashpoint-Joe. Savitar wouldn't have been shot by Iris. At least with cold powers, it's been well established that cold is the antithesis of motion/speed, so the "cold front" in front of an incoming cold blast could be handwaved away as being able to slow a speedster's reflexes, but still, if Barry's reflexes were really as fast as they were shown in the Peek a Boo episode, nothing short of an energy weapon could ever touch him. It would break the show.
    And yet Zoom phased through Caitlin, right at Earth 2's Killer Frost's icicle, grabbed it mid air just like that and killed her. Other speedsters, Barry included, managed to avoid some of Killer Frost's attacks on occasion as well. And leaving some suspense for the protagonist is something else than applying those same limitations onto the antagonists. Especially someone like Savitar who is supposed to be to Barry what Barry is to normal humans in terms of speed and the perception of it. Having him fail to avoid something that Barry sometimes did is just laughable. Same story goes with Black Flash, who was supposed to be problematic to Savitar in turn. Hell, the fact that Jay, Barry and Wally managed to almost keep up with Savitar prior to him becoming a total failure is also something that breaks suspension of disbelief in the confines of the already established plot. Savitar getting shot from behind when he wasn't in the best state of mind and could have suffered some backlash from Barry blowing up his armor in his face isn't as bad as Savitar not being able to avoid something right in front of him that he can see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    That's why it's a time loop rather than a paradox. You have to send the guy back to save Sarah Connor because he's your father and if you dont' send him back to conceive you there won't be any you to send him back...

    Savitar exists because Savitar existed. There is no paradox. Paradox is Savitar existing after Barry learned who he was/ how he was created. At that point you break the loop and create a paradox.
    And yet its other name is a bootstrap paradox. Probably because it is one. Even if one tried to argue it's not, it wouldn't take away the fact it makes no sense whatsoever and makes the story shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    The Paradox backlash had already occured when the future was broken, so killing her after wouldn't matter. I'd still have done it anyway, if I were an evil psycho speed god, but that's me.
    But why? His original origin story did not involve killing Iris to begin with. His pre-Flashpoint origin story was already broken and that didn't do squat to Savitar. It only allowed him to escape. What difference does it make if he re-establishes it by killing Iris on that street or 5 minutes later? All he needs is for Barry to create time remnants to fight Savitar in this idiotic loop, and Barry has proven time and time again he doesn't learn from mistakes even if it costs the people he loves their life. As evidenced by there still being a Savitar that was Barry's time remnant despite Barry gaining the knowledge Savitar is what'd happen if he made time remnants to fight him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    That's another problem with breaking the time loop, there can't be a speed trap to fill if Barry never made it to trap a Savitar that never was.
    BUUUUT, I think that was the point of the final scene. He's not going in the Speed Trap. The Speed Force appeared, telling him politely "you promised us you wouldn't fuck up time again, then you did, then you promised again you wouldn't, now you did again... you're on time out fucking idiot." It wasn't the Speed Force putting him in the prison, it was it removing him from reality before he could fuck things up again.

    Well, my point was about the lightning itself. Whether Barry going into the Speeforce without getting imprisoned fixes it or not is inconsequential to what I complained about. And if the prison vanished altogether, it's even worse. Again, why does the prison disappearing cause worse effects that the prison appearing there in the first place? Both are equal alterations to the Speedforce, just of opposite values.


    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    No no, forget that. Explain to me, what Killer Frost gained. She helps him become a time god and he... lets her... uh, wander off? What did he promise her? (A promise not kept in 2024 as she sits in prison.) I've never been a fan of "my powers make me evil" Frost while Vibe isn't his E2 version when his powers kick in, but she could have just left, what did she gain by allying with him? I could swear they referenced her having a deal or objective.
    He did say he can make Caitlin disappear, so maybe he had the means to achieve to erase her permanently. Or maybe something to do with the philosopher's stone. Like, I dunno, smashing it into her forehead and allowing her to become Diablo or whatever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Basically, he encountered something looking like Black Flash in the Speed Force, but he also encountered Eddie, Ronnie, and Snart too, so whether it was the actual Black Flash or just a Speed Force representation of him is questionable (though it could be argued that, when it comes to Black Flash, they're the same thing). The whole scenario was set up by the Speed Force as a lesson, and his fight with the Black Flash avatar mostly consisted of him doing a few throws and punches, running away, and then being caught and almost "killed" until eventually he had to give up his easy escape route (contained in his chest emblem) in order to survive. That seemed more like a metaphor within the lesson than an actual defeat of Black Flash in my eyes; I doubt the same trick would have worked in the real world.
    The emblem was a tachyon McGuffin from what I recall, so I find it plausible it could disable the Black Flash. Besides, were the Time Wraiths Barry had to deal earlier also not real? Was the fake-Black Flash causing Barry to age imaginary? Because the whole engagement with the Speedforce followed a pattern. First taking some form that'd mindfuck with Barry, then letting him go but only if he proves himself to be worthy by dealing with some Speedforce boogeyman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #4363
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But why? His original origin story did not involve killing Iris to begin with.
    We don't know what, if any, his pre-FP story was. Garrick said he was a god and had blah blah, but all that stuff is wrong in it's own way. Savitar said Flashpoint allowed Wally which allowed him to escape since he couldn't trap Barry which would lead to him not being created.

    We do have the headline, which means Iris was still alive at that point, but we don't know if/when Savitar was originally created, so maybe it was after that and Flashpoint pushed the timeline up or something, who knows.

    His pre-Flashpoint origin story was already broken and that didn't do squat to Savitar. It only allowed him to escape. What difference does it make if he re-establishes it by killing Iris on that street or 5 minutes later? All he needs is for Barry to create time remnants to fight Savitar in this idiotic loop, and Barry has proven time and time again he doesn't learn from mistakes even if it costs the people he loves their life. As evidenced by there still being a Savitar that was Barry's time remnant despite Barry gaining the knowledge Savitar is what'd happen if he made time remnants to fight him.
    Because the plot said this was the break point. He could have killed Iris after, but that would not stop the Paradox Wave already coming after him, for... whatever reason.


    Well, my point was about the lightning itself. Whether Barry going into the Speeforce without getting imprisoned fixes it or not is inconsequential to what I complained about. And if the prison vanished altogether, it's even worse. Again, why does the prison disappearing cause worse effects that the prison appearing there in the first place? Both are equal alterations to the Speedforce, just of opposite values.
    My point is that the prison isn't part of the equation now. They took Garrick out, nothing happened. They went a few days, had a funeral, then suddenly the SpeedForce decided to force itself into the world and tell Barry he had to come. Sure, they assumed it was the Speedtrap destabilizing, maybe it was maybe it wasn't. The Speedforce said "no trap".
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  4. #4364
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post


    Please, if there was more power of friendship involved in that scene, Earth 2 Wells would transform into Naruto.

    Naruto <3 . My little Pony, friendship is everything approves

  5. #4365
    "I'm Barry Allen, and I'm the dumbest man alive.."

    That would be honest, at least.

  6. #4366
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    "I'm Barry Allen, and I'm the dumbest man alive.."

    That would be honest, at least.
    I know myself, and i wouldn't confident in that statement if i'm honest...i've said and done really dumb stuff

  7. #4367
    They did go a bit off the rails with this one. I'm glad the main villain next year isn't another speedster, though.

  8. #4368
    "Remember when you shit your pants at the prom, Barry?

    IT WAS ME, BARRY! I SHIT YOUR PANTS!"

  9. #4369
    I'm going to miss H.R.

  10. #4370
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    So this is a show that you can't invest too much time on the plot logic, many of the plots just consist of nonsense science speak and morality but it's got a likeable cast that's just fun to watch.

    Kicking Grant Gustin out of the show was a bad move imo, he's just a very likeable character who's the heart and soul of everything they've done there. Sure Wally will be fine, but removing Gustin is a waste.
    Grant Gustin isn't going anywhere.

  11. #4371
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  12. #4372
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    He walks away from the show finally hopefully maybe?

  13. #4373
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    He walks away from the show finally hopefully maybe?
    Barry? Nah he's still a series regular which means Wally likely won't be flash for very long
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  14. #4374
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  15. #4375

  16. #4376
    I hate the crossovers because I tend to binge watch each show sepparately and haven't been watching Supergirl or Legends of Tomorrow at all. I think I lasted 3 episodes into Supergirl and 2 into Legends.

  17. #4377
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Soul View Post
    CW marketing team putting in work. Surprised people still watch this rubbish.

    Let me give you a guess what the new season is about. A new speedster attacks central city and that means Barry has to change the timeline and make iris love him all over again

  18. #4378
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    CW marketing team putting in work. Surprised people still watch this rubbish.

    Let me give you a guess what the new season is about. A new speedster attacks central city and that means Barry has to change the timeline and make iris love him all over again
    Nope, they already confirmed a while ago that this seasons big bad will not be a speedster it will be The Thinker.

  19. #4379
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    CW marketing team putting in work. Surprised people still watch this rubbish.

    Let me give you a guess what the new season is about. A new speedster attacks central city and that means Barry has to change the timeline and make iris love him all over again
    Thinker is the big bad of season 4
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  20. #4380
    Going to call it now, The Thinker who is the big bad will NOT be a friend this season like Wells/Jay/Julian/Barry was. I'm just glad its not a speedster this time.

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