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  1. #1

    [Beta] Need some feral support

    For those interested in taking part of a balance issue toward feral race choice, please feel free to join the topics:

    This one is a little eaten by forum trolls tho ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...92833?page=1#0

    The best one ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14527382779#1

    Be careful, ''you're posting this on a troll lol +1 me'' isn't a valuable argument and will just make you look stupid in from of the blues and the theorycrafting community.

    Thanks for taking part to the discussion and make sure you read the whole thread before posting so you are aware of the most recent updates.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Well yeah, they should just change Rake and Shred to "when used in Prowl" instead of "Stealth" and call it a day. Shadowmeld shouldn't have an offensive benefit like that, it's a defensive cooldown.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Boticha View Post
    For those interested in taking part of a balance issue toward feral race choice, please feel free to join the topics:

    This one is a little eaten by forum trolls tho ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...92833?page=1#0

    The best one ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14527382779#1

    Be careful, ''you're posting this on a troll lol +1 me'' isn't a valuable argument and will just make you look stupid in from of the blues and the theorycrafting community.

    Thanks for taking part to the discussion and make sure you read the whole thread before posting so you are aware of the most recent updates.
    I think this probably will and should fall of deaf ears. There was no uproar when NE was the worst offensive racial. Not to mention NE have the worst cat form by far.

    Troll Ferals were very OP in MoP compared to NE but were left that way for the entire expansion
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-09-23 at 12:34 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Troll Ferals were very OP in MoP compared to NE but were left that way for the entire expansion
    So, balance for you is a vendetta, that's right? Troll were strong so now it's NE turn. I see. What would you answer to a tauren and a worgen?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Boticha View Post
    So, balance for you is a vendetta, that's right? Troll were strong so now it's NE turn. I see. What would you answer to a tauren and a worgen?

    What did you tell them when you had the best racial? Worgen is and was fine. I'd ask the Tauren druids how often their Troll druid brethren asked to be nerfed to be brought down to the same level. They probably still feel guilty about War Stomp though. The free SR was already nerfed. If it still bothers you that much race change. Rather hypocritical to race change to Troll so you can have the best racial and then whine when there is a racial a little bit better than yours.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-09-22 at 06:49 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Rather hypocritical to race change to Troll so you can have the best racial and then whine when there is a racial a little bit better than yours.
    A little means 0.5-1%. Actually it's 4%+. That's not what I call a little. It's like autoflagging the whole spec for a nerf. Some got to take the bullets from the weaklings for the team. You are blinded by the race I play and considerer it a good argument. That makes you unworthy to get a beta to help Blizzard balance things.

  7. #7
    Honestly I don't see the issue at all. NElf's "dps" racial is useless for ferals that raid at night because we get 1% haste instead of crit. Haste is still pretty much a dead stat for Feral. Nelves need something. Leave Shadowmeld as is.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by FeralSynapse View Post
    Honestly I don't see the issue at all. NElf's "dps" racial is useless for ferals that raid at night because we get 1% haste instead of crit. Haste is still pretty much a dead stat for Feral. Nelves need something. Leave Shadowmeld as is.
    This. Troll was the best choice for a very very long time. Most guilds raid at the night (racial based on server time) so the 1% haste we get is completely useless (the way we are on beta atm). Seems fine to me, considering other races (none druid ones) get some pretty good racials, which given the limited druid races, we don't have access to.

    You remove the 100% rake damage from shadowmeld, Worgen becomes the best race for a progress raider, you can't win, and until I see the maths behind this, I'm not convinced that it's that much ahead of the troll racial.
    Last edited by mmoca8c3a8c487; 2014-09-22 at 04:07 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
    and until I see the maths behind this, I'm not convinced that it's that much ahead of the troll racial.
    It's not. The free SR plus Rake was a bit much but Bliz fixed the free SR part. Subtract out the opportunity cost of using it and then subtract out NE racials being backwards and it is no worse than the Troll racial has been. The first Rakes are the same for everybody and fight mechanics will make it difficult to use exactly on cooldown. But if the OP could convince Blizzard to switch NE racials around so that +1% crit is during raids then I would support this. I have a feeling Bliz would fix this by removing the Rake bonus damage for all Ferals which would be a shame.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-09-22 at 06:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
    This. Troll was the best choice for a very very long time. Most guilds raid at the night (racial based on server time) so the 1% haste we get is completely useless (the way we are on beta atm). Seems fine to me, considering other races (none druid ones) get some pretty good racials, which given the limited druid races, we don't have access to.

    You remove the 100% rake damage from shadowmeld, Worgen becomes the best race for a progress raider, you can't win, and until I see the maths behind this, I'm not convinced that it's that much ahead of the troll racial.
    There's a difference between marginal difference in races and being a larger disparity. Worgen for example may be like .5% better than Night Elves if the Rake issue was fixed, meanwhile Night Elves get to sit like 2% higher than Worgen with it in. That's too large for a racial, especially when it's an easy one to fix by just making the bonuses only apply to 'when Prowling."
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Boticha View Post
    For those interested in taking part of a balance issue toward feral race choice, please feel free to join the topics:

    This one is a little eaten by forum trolls tho ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...92833?page=1#0

    The best one ---> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14527382779#1

    Be careful, ''you're posting this on a troll lol +1 me'' isn't a valuable argument and will just make you look stupid in from of the blues and the theorycrafting community.

    Thanks for taking part to the discussion and make sure you read the whole thread before posting so you are aware of the most recent updates.
    Saw your thread on the official forums. If I had an active account/beta access I'd give you a bump and a thumbs up for support. All the best.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    There's a difference between marginal difference in races and being a larger disparity. Worgen for example may be like .5% better than Night Elves if the Rake issue was fixed, meanwhile Night Elves get to sit like 2% higher than Worgen with it in. That's too large for a racial, especially when it's an easy one to fix by just making the bonuses only apply to 'when Prowling."

    Troll was about 1.5% better than NE. NE will not be that far above Troll when you subtract out lost autoattacks and adjust for how often NE can actually use this. Unless it has changed in WoD moving or taking AoE damage before you go from Shadowmeld to Prowl will break stealth. Also if they remove the Shadowmeld bonus that makes NE the worst race for the 3rd expansion in a row.

    I don't play and don't plan to but this is just blatantly hypocritical.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Troll was about 1.5% better than NE. NE will not be that far above Troll when you subtract out lost autoattacks and adjust for how often NE can actually use this. Unless it has changed in WoD moving or taking AoE damage before you go from Shadowmeld to Prowl will break stealth. Also if they remove the Shadowmeld bonus that makes NE the worst race for the 3rd expansion in a row.

    I don't play and don't plan to but this is just blatantly hypocritical.
    It's up every 2 minutes to grant you an incredibly large Rake for 22 seconds when used with Tiger's Fury and Bloodtalons along with the passive 1% Haste or Crit depending on the time of the day.

    It's unnecessary, willing to guarantee it's unintended, and is a direct contradiction to their nerfing of Berserking and changes to snapshotting. It's also not so much Troll vs Night Elf as much as its Night Elf vs Worgen so I have no fucking idea why you keep bringing up Trolls.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2014-09-22 at 10:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    It's unnecessary, willing to guarantee it's unintended, and is a direct contradiction to their nerfing of Berserking and changes to snapshotting. It's also not so much Troll vs Night Elf as much as its Night Elf vs Worgen so I have no fucking idea why you keep bringing up Trolls.
    Because its a race druid has access to, if I felt troll racial was a make or break thing, I would transfer horde and play troll instead, but since racial's are ~2% dps at best, I don't see the need (Apart from ToT beast bosses but it was only a few). Therefore it's worth comparing, because people actually do this. If you were saying Undead and Nelf, you would have a point, but you aren't.

  15. #15
    It's more likely for someone to change their race over the disparity than to up and leave their guild and find a new one on a new faction for the difference. That's why it's not worth comparing.

    Trolls may be too good still and is up for debate. But from the Alliance side, Night Elf Ferals have a pretty decent lead over Worgen, enough to be an issue when it comes to calculating racial power and enough to cause shifting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    It's up every 2 minutes to grant you an incredibly large Rake for 22 seconds when used with Tiger's Fury and Bloodtalons along with the passive 1% Haste or Crit depending on the time of the day.

    It's unnecessary, willing to guarantee it's unintended, and is a direct contradiction to their nerfing of Berserking and changes to snapshotting. It's also not so much Troll vs Night Elf as much as its Night Elf vs Worgen so I have no fucking idea why you keep bringing up Trolls.
    It has nothing to do with the changes to snapshotting, those were made so skilled Ferals would not be doing 100% more damage than casual Ferals. In boss fights there is no evidence that NE will be even 1% better than other racials thanks to their night time racial being awful.

    I haven't seen any Worgen Ferals complaining about this, only Troll Ferals that race changed. If its that big a deal then race change again. Blizzard likes that.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-09-23 at 12:35 AM.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    It's more likely for someone to change their race over the disparity than to up and leave their guild and find a new one on a new faction for the difference. That's why it's not worth comparing.
    I know many people who left the server I play on, to play horde during ToT because they felt the troll racial was much better, just because you don't think it's worth it, doesn't mean other's don't. It's not very expensive to transfer and finding a guild isn't difficult providing you have experience.

    Edit - Just want to say that I know Simc isn't finished yet and it's still been worked on, but checking the feral prio list, it's using nelf racial with bloodtalons as it should.



    You can check it yourself, just import the Druid_Feral_T17Mythic profile and change the race, job done.
    Last edited by mmoca8c3a8c487; 2014-09-23 at 12:49 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
    Edit - Just want to say that I know Simc isn't finished yet and it's still been worked on, but checking the feral prio list, it's using nelf racial with bloodtalons as it should.



    You can check it yourself, just import the Druid_Feral_T17Mythic profile and change the race, job done.
    Problem is the bot from simcraft is pure crap. Their spell order and priority are wrong. I did my own testing and my NE was pulling 2k more DPS than my tauren. Same gears, same time, same procs, same everything.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Why don't you post this testing? Everything i've done so far gives me AT BEST a 1% dps difference, which is considered pretty good balance. You are here criticizing simc, but how do you know its your testing which isn't crap? It just seems to me like you are keeping an argument going when SR gave you 5 cps from shadowmeld, which you would be correct, is to strong as a racial, but that was 2 builds ago...
    Last edited by mmoca8c3a8c487; 2014-09-23 at 02:36 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
    Why don't you post this testing? Everything i've done so far gives me AT BEST a 1% dps difference, which is considered pretty good balance. You are here criticizing simc, but how do you know its your testing which isn't crap? It just seems to me like you are keeping an argument going when SR gave you 5 cps from shadowmeld, which you would be correct, is to strong as a racial, but that was 2 builds ago...
    I will once I'm not at job anymore. During that time I would love to see that simC spell order. A 20% increase in rake damage can't be a 74 dps increase out of 48655 dps.

    Edit: I just looked at these simcraft results. They avoid mastery going Crit > MS >>> rest, doesn't even do a single thrash and gave shadowmeld to a tauren (lol). Simcraft is for sure pure gold.
    Last edited by Boticha; 2014-09-23 at 02:56 PM.

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