[6.2] Demonology Warlock Guide

[zvvl]

ToC and SF have roughly the same fury efficiency. If you only spend fury on procs, then it does not matter which one you pick.
Simplifying things a lot, if on a fight you spent 2000 fury outside DS, then it does not matter if you did 25 SF rather than 50 ToC.

Fury efficiency is not the only relevant metric, you spend less of your fury during proc or DS windows if you use ToC instead. You gain very little by spending SFs without procs so you want to spend them efficiently in procs. You will generate more than 10 procs and 1k fury in 2 minutes before your DS dumps. I have no idea why you have spent the past 10 pages arguing against this point when basic logic just proves it wrong, despite whatever your spreadsheet says.

Literally no one is saying to not plan for spending SF and Fury. Literally nobody has said that. However, you have to spend efficiently between and ToC is just less efficient if you can avoid it.

[Deleted]

I think it's important to remember that while ToC of course does about half the damage of SF, at about half the Fury cost, ToC has slightly more than half the cast time of an MC'd SF, meaning it's simply not as efficient a Fury spender ... not to mention that ToC does not scale at all with haste, and SF will never get screwed by Crit RNG. If it was exactly half the cast time it'd be a lot closer, but still not equal due to the haste scaling (raid haste buff, trinks, lust). I'm not intimately familiar with the rate at which SF damage scales with crit chance so I can't comment on that off the top of my head.

I don't think it's quite as bad as some are making it out to be, but MC'd SF really is superior in every way except for flexibility for movement and squeezing a cast out if you don't have time for a full SF.

You are forgetting something very important here. A MC SF costs a MC stack !

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Fury efficiency is not the only relevant metric, you spend less of your fury during proc or DS windows if you use ToC instead.

Absolutely not. If every time you had a proc you would only spend fury for the next 10 second, then I would agree. Theoretically, ToC would limit you to 10 * 40 + 60 = 460 fury spent during this proc while SF would allow for 6 * 80 + 60 = 540 fury spent during those 10 seconds. So unless you want to spend more than 460 fury every time you get a proc, I don't know how the low fury cost of ToC may be an issue.

[Novx]

You are forgetting something very important here. A MC SF costs a MC stack !

You are forgetting something very important here. 1 Soulfire with MC generally has a shorter cast than 2 ToC's when you take GCD into account.

[FurtyIRL]

Absolutely not. If every time you had a proc you would only spend fury for the next 10 second, then I would agree. Theoretically, ToC would limit you to 10 * 40 + 60 = 460 fury spent during this proc while SF would allow for 6 * 80 + 60 = 540 fury spent during those 10 seconds. So unless you want to spend more than 460 fury every time you get a proc, I don't know how the low fury cost of ToC may be an issue.

This is a ridiculous hypothetical. In most situations you're going to get 2-3 SFs off in any given proc since it's likely to occur while HoG weaving etc. You can pack that damage into a shorter cast time and spend more time generating fury and multidotting. You're not just sitting in meta waiting to hit SF the very instant GSR procs.

[Deleted]

You are forgetting something very important here. 1 Soulfire with MC generally has a shorter cast than 2 ToC's when you take GCD into account.

This is a ridiculous hypothetical. In most situations you're going to get 2-3 SFs off in any given proc since it's likely to occur while HoG weaving etc. You can pack that damage into a shorter cast time and spend more time generating fury and multidotting. You're not just sitting in meta waiting to hit SF the very instant GSR procs.

My spreadsheet takes this into account when calculating spell efficiency, because everything is calculated based on the relative increase compared to SB spam.
EDPS = (Damage - (Cast Time / Cast Time of SB * Damage of SB)) / (Fury cost + 6 * Cast Time - (Cast Time / Cast Time of SB * Fury generation of SB))

In the case of Soulfire, you also have to consider the damage you could have done with a caster form Soulfire. You can show that, in this case
EDPS = (Damage - (Cast Time / Cast Time of SF * Damage of SF)) / (Fury cost + 6 * Cast Time - (Cast Time / Cast Time of SF * Fury generation of SF))

Therefore, my spreadsheet would compare 2 ToC + 1 caster SF vs 1 meta SF + 2 / 2.5 * (1 + haste) * SB

[Woz]

Once again, this is what you should have expected if you had taken the time to think. DS is the highest DPS increase and I used SF under DS and ToC under other procs. So SF doing more damage on average is... perfectly fine.

But you didn't use ToC under all your other procs, is what I'm saying, if you had the average damage difference wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

For example at 2:44, sure you didn't have a massive amount of Fury but you could have bled some for the ring proc when your next DS phase wasn't until 4:11.
However the same time your ring proc, BMC also procced for you so you had an opportunity to use both at the same time (and actually had 3 BMC procs in a row, such luck) you chose to use ToC for the first BMC proc (ending at 2:43:363), BMC procs again during the ring proc (at 2:43:879 and 2:44:463, respectively) and do nothing but build ~150 Fury only for BMC to proc again (at 2:53:896, literally milliseconds after the 2nd go ends) to use 240 Fury on 6 ToC. While I mostly agree with using ToC during BMC because of how short the duration is, it's far easier getting use out of it with ToC than trying to line up a SF for it, there is still potential for it to be "better" with SF, if you can line it up.

Anyway, kind of getting off topic.

I never said anything about my in-game abilities. I have done a lot of mistakes on this log and could definitely have done better.
For the legendary ring proc, 15% intelligence is 15% damage, I don't know what you expect to achieve by comparing it to the passive bonus from my trinket but it is definitely a weaker proc than GSR or BMC.

Sure, the ring proc is definitely not as powerful as the trinkets but it gives you in raid ~865 Int on proc, which is definitely nothing to scoff at or something you should ignore. Unlike Mark of Bleeding Hollow being only 500 Mastery, sure it's a nice buffer but it's not even close to 865 Int.

Anyway, as much fun as this is I'm going to take my leave from it since I feel like there's not much else to be said that hasn't already been said.

[Gaidax]

Not very sure what's the argument is, but if you fire up Simcraft you can slightly modify Demo profile to never cast Soul Fire in Meta and only use ToC there and Soul Fire only outside Meta your loss will be ~2% and that is even before optimizing.

So this whole argument here is pretty void really, because if you play as inefficient as you can, you still lose almost nothing which means that ToC is indeed almost as good as Soulfire to begin with, really.

Basically you are splitting hairs there with all this presumed inefficiency of using ToC instead of SF sometimes - even if there is a difference, it's so tiny you won't even notice. You may as well use Meta SF only while DS is up and otherwise just use it in caster form to not cap MC procs and realistically you will do the same damage and maybe even more actually.

That is even if I actually understand correctly the whole argument here to begin with.

[Deleted]

But you didn't use ToC under all your other procs, is what I'm saying, if you had the average damage difference wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

You cannot compare ToC and SF from my logs. I thought this was what you intended to do, now I am not so sure.

For example at 2:44, sure you didn't have a massive amount of Fury but you could have bled some for the ring proc when your next DS phase wasn't until 4:11.
However the same time your ring proc, BMC also procced for you so you had an opportunity to use both at the same time (and actually had 3 BMC procs in a row, such luck) you chose to use ToC for the first BMC proc (ending at 2:43:363), BMC procs again during the ring proc (at 2:43:879 and 2:44:463, respectively) and do nothing but build ~150 Fury only for BMC to proc again (at 2:53:896, literally milliseconds after the 2nd go ends) to use 240 Fury on 6 ToC. While I mostly agree with using ToC during BMC because of how short the duration is, it's far easier getting use out of it with ToC than trying to line up a SF for it, there is still potential for it to be "better" with SF, if you can line it up.

I definitely did not play perfectly.
To get a little off topic, I believe that when BMC proc is up and you have another BMC proc, it will wait until the end of the first proc to activate. I think this is meant not to screw you and reset your BMC stack to 0 during your burst. This is why you often get two procs in a row. But this is only assumptions on my end.

Sure, the ring proc is definitely not as powerful as the trinkets but it gives you in raid ~865 Int on proc, which is definitely nothing to scoff at or something you should ignore. Unlike Mark of Bleeding Hollow being only 500 Mastery, sure it's a nice buffer but it's not even close to 865 Int.

Actually 500 Mastery is nothing less than 12% damage increase if you are in meta.

[FurtyIRL]

Not very sure what's the argument is, but if you fire up Simcraft you can slightly modify Demo profile to never cast Soul Fire in Meta and only use ToC there and Soul Fire only outside Meta your loss will be ~2% and that is even before optimizing.

So this whole argument here is pretty void really, because if you play as inefficient as you can, you still lose almost nothing which means that ToC is indeed almost as good as Soulfire to begin with, really.

Basically you are splitting hairs there with all this presumed inefficiency of using ToC instead of SF sometimes - even if there is a difference, it's so tiny you won't even notice. You may as well use Meta SF only while DS is up and otherwise just use it in caster form to not cap MC procs and realistically you will do the same damage and maybe even more actually.

That is even if I actually understand correctly the whole argument here to begin with.

Pretty sure empirical evidence voids this as an actual player can optimize stack usage with trinkets/procs infinitely more efficiently and intelligently than the sim does. ToC scales worse with procs and therefore the sim can play like mongoloid and not see a huge difference in damage.

[Hugginz]

@ Ulto

You really need to work on your opener, you bungled your order. (fully aware that your ilvl is slightly lower, but MWF Weapon..)

Your opener is 30k lower

see:

You vs Barbedlash, same fight length

This whole argument over whether or not TOC is better than SF (in Meta) (which it obviously is not) is moot if you don't get your opener correct.

On top of that, you capped fury. There is really no reason to do this (and this is supported by logs), and your corruption uptime is not as good

You capped twice

[Deleted]

Not very sure what's the argument is, but if you fire up Simcraft you can slightly modify Demo profile to never cast Soul Fire in Meta and only use ToC there and Soul Fire only outside Meta your loss will be ~2% and that is even before optimizing.

So this whole argument here is pretty void really, because if you play as inefficient as you can, you still lose almost nothing which means that ToC is indeed almost as good as Soulfire to begin with, really.

Basically you are splitting hairs there with all this presumed inefficiency of using ToC instead of SF sometimes - even if there is a difference, it's so tiny you won't even notice. You may as well use Meta SF only while DS is up and otherwise just use it in caster form to not cap MC procs and realistically you will do the same damage and maybe even more actually.

That is even if I actually understand correctly the whole argument here to begin with.

The argument is about weither or not using ToC instead of SF on procs is an abyssmal DPS loss.
It is basically me against the rest of the warlock community, but now that I have the theory, the logs and the sims on my side I feel pretty confident.

[FurtyIRL]

The argument is about weither or not using ToC instead of SF on procs is an abyssmal DPS loss.
It is basically me against the rest of the warlock community, but now that I have the theory, the logs and the sims on my side I feel pretty confident.

By the logs being on your side you mean me doing ~7k more DPS than you on a regular basis on a purely single target fight, then yeah, you've definitely got the logs on your side bro.

Anyways I too am going to step out of this discuss as it's not even an intelligent debate. You're basically just saying 'nu uh, my spreadsheet says' to everything anyone says and it's really getting a little tiresome to read. Like I said, just keep doing what you're doing if it floats your boat.

[Deleted]

@ Ulto

You really need to work on your opener, you bungled your order. (fully aware that your ilvl is slightly lower, but MWF Weapon..)

Your opener is 30k lower

see:

You vs Barbedlash, same fight length

This whole argument over whether or not TOC is better than SF (in Meta) (which it obviously is not) is moot if you don't get your opener correct.

On top of that, you capped fury. There is really no reason to do this (and this is supported by logs), and your corruption uptime is not as good

You capped twice

While I appreciate your concern, let's not make this about my logs.
Besides, you cannot compare DPS at pull, there is too much RNG involved, not to add Barbedlash is a troll (+15 % haste)
Oh and I think you meant my corruption uptime is better.

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By the logs being on your side you mean me doing ~7k more DPS than you on a regular basis on a purely single target fight, then yeah, you've definitely got the logs on your side bro.

Anyways I too am going to step out of this discuss as it's not even an intelligent debate. You're basically just saying 'nu uh, my spreadsheet says' to everything anyone says and it's really getting a little tiresome to read. Like I said, just keep doing what you're doing if it floats your boat.

As you boldly stated that ToC was a huge DPS loss over SF, only one log from a top 10 warlock who use ToC is enough to prove you wrong.
Next time, save yourself the trouble and think twice before critizing and making such assertions.

[l0nglive]

I'm not sure about the trinket thing in the first post
From Wowhead

The Sandman Pouch has 115s CD while others have 0.92 ppm. I do not quite understand how they work out as average proc per minute?
Also the SP is significantly weaker than other trinkets in terms of int and proc. Is this intended or fixed?

[Noxina]

Why would you chose to do less dps though, even if it is just a tiny bit? It's like equipping a Str ring over a Int ring, because the Str one got better secondary stats than the Int one. I honestly see no reason to handicap your self.

First the Demonbolt dude, and now a Touch of Chaos maniac. Where is the world going?! #EndOfTheWorldForSureBlameObamaAndWoD

[Deleted]

To be fair, Wormie made some good points and certainly made a case for Demonbolt as being viable, the conversation just turned sour from the get go.

[Rayaleith]

Ok but I really do not understand why people feel the URGE to prove others wrong. This is a game forum. We are talking about a game that we all like to play. I like warlock forums because there are people here that play better than me and can learn things. But the last 3-4 pages are really annoying. In my opinion an argument could be like.

- Hey guys, I played DB after nerf and I feel that after xxx ilvl it is still competitive and I don't feel great proc luck is needed
- I think you are wrong because <argument>
- Well I disagree. I think that <arguments>
- Admin: Well, it would be nice to see if more people use DB and see more logs on it! Great idea Mr DB to bring it up! Logs will tell! Thanks Mr FurtyorWhoeverelse! Let's move on.

OR like

- Hey guys! I've made a spreadsheet that I want to share and my conclusions are <blah>
- Possible answer1: Hey man, thanks for the contribution. There is an error in your calculation <there>
- Ah thanks mate, cheers

- Possible answer2: Your maths seems ok but practice has shown that you seldom/never come to a situation with xxxx fury and xx MC procs!
- Well my logs show that <blah>
- well yeah but my logs show more dmg using <blah2>
- Admin: Great info here. Let's see in the near future since community can use both ways!

Ok this is a sample. It is nice to have multiple opinions (with arguments) but please, put a threshold here. Do not rape the thread like that.

[Gaidax]

Why would you chose to do less dps though, even if it is just a tiny bit? It's like equipping a Str ring over a Int ring, because the Str one got better secondary stats than the Int one. I honestly see no reason to handicap your self.

First the Demonbolt dude, and now a Touch of Chaos maniac. Where is the world going?! #EndOfTheWorldForSureBlameObamaAndWoD

You can be a sheep and follow what prominent players push for as a gospel or you can open you mind to other possibilities and discover potentially important information that was overlooked (or swept under the rug of hype).

The gap between good, viable and trash in these forums seems to be a mere hundreds DPS apart and many people miss out by trying to tailor themselves to gameplay style of others, which often leads to underperforming due to more complications optimal play demands - in many cases simpler gameplay which in theory is a bit inferior can produce better real world result for many guys, simply because it's much easier to play WELL as opposed to other options.

The fact that "Demonbolt is not viable" and "ToC is horrible" opinions in this thread thrive show very well how close-minded the general populace is, not capable of thinking for themselves and instead rely on stars to spoonfeed them their gameplay choices.

Truth is Demonbolt is just a tiny bit worse if everything is played 100% and ToC is the same and both have very significant real life advantages that can negate this, not to mention the fact that both are easier to pull out, than other "better" options.

Simple point is that playing Demonbolt is not bad and spamming ToC in some situations is actually fine over the usual bee-lining to the "FOTM" specs.

[Deleted]

About Demonbolt, I would really like to see some changes to the guide, which still says that there is no consensus on weither you need to use 2 DB cycle or 4 DB cycles.
Are there players still in favor of the 2 DB cycle, who can provide arguments, theorycraft, logs ?

[gruxxar]

Our guild is gonna get going on Blast Furnace Mythic on our next raid for the first time and I was wondering if any of you guys went cata-demo for it.


Afaik, the first phase is the hardest so being able to mop up all the mobs seems fine altough i'll have less power on the primalists.

It's for this reason my gut is telling me to go Destro (Sac+CR) for either big aoe, or burst phases on the primalists even though i love playing demo!

Hoping for some input from anyone who has attempted this before