[GUIDE] Mistweavers of Draenor: PvE Healing in [6.2]

[TrollShaman]

Ascension is still a very bad talent for Mistweavers regardless. Remember that more chi = more mana because you generate mana tea stacks from spending chi, which power strikes/chi brew helps with.

[Geodew]

I'm not having chi generation problems, I'm having mana problems over the course of healing intensive fights

Chi Brew gives about as much Mana in the form of Mana Tea as Ascension does, plus burst Chi Gen. You shouldn't be OOMing for intense fights at this point (with upgrades and various nerfs) unless your DPS is awful and you're also carrying your healing team. In that case, Chi Brew is still superior to Ascension, though you may have better luck with Power Strikes over Chi Brew.

I made this spreadsheet a long time ago. It assumes "below mana cap," and does not give Chi Brew a bonus for being burstier than Power Strikes, so keep that in mind (Most people use Chi Brew in HFC, and those who don't use Power Strikes; Ascension is just objectively worse than both): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=838993614

[SimonVonLagMaat]

Chi Brew gives about as much Mana in the form of Mana Tea as Ascension does, plus burst Chi Gen. You shouldn't be OOMing for intense fights at this point (with upgrades and various nerfs) unless your DPS is awful and you're also carrying your healing team. In that case, Chi Brew is still superior to Ascension, though you may have better luck with Power Strikes over Chi Brew.

I made this spreadsheet a long time ago. It assumes "below mana cap," and does not give Chi Brew a bonus for being burstier than Power Strikes, so keep that in mind (Most people use Chi Brew in HFC, and those who don't use Power Strikes; Ascension is just objectively worse than both): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=838993614

I'm just not sure how, as far as pure mp5 goes at my level of spirit going into fights ascension gives 30k mana (6 minute fight), not taking into account any bonuses I'd get from spirit procs, it would be higher (albeit not much, and overall worse mana) if I ran double spirit trinkets and not DF. Also I'm not sure if Ascension spirit counts as your spirit being buffed, if not that's essentially a free mana tea worth of mana every 10 stacks consumed.

In the same 6 minute fight the total mana provided by chi bew and power strikes are about half of that of Ascension (16,464 and 14,112 respectively) Yes those two choices will certainly give me more healing throughput for my talent point, unless I run oom. I just can't see it as cut and dry, for some fights, as ascension is just bad.

[Supliftz]

Because the chi you generate from chi brew/power strikes also generates mana tea, thus giving you more total regen, whilst giving a throughput bonus from extra chi.

Ascension is just not a good talent my friend.

[Deleted]

I'm just not sure how, as far as pure mp5 goes at my level of spirit going into fights ascension gives 30k mana (6 minute fight), not taking into account any bonuses I'd get from spirit procs, it would be higher (albeit not much, and overall worse mana) if I ran double spirit trinkets and not DF. Also I'm not sure if Ascension spirit counts as your spirit being buffed, if not that's essentially a free mana tea worth of mana every 10 stacks consumed.

In the same 6 minute fight the total mana provided by chi bew and power strikes are about half of that of Ascension (16,464 and 14,112 respectively) Yes those two choices will certainly give me more healing throughput for my talent point, unless I run oom. I just can't see it as cut and dry, for some fights, as ascension is just bad.

Mebe it's easier if you post logs of the fight you're talking about ( I guess it's gorefiend ? ). My guess is that the problem is something completely different. You running oom with 2k+ spirit sounds so impossible I just can't believe it. Either your Chi generation ( thus healing ) is so low that your MT stacks are close to zero, which would just mean you're a bad monk, or you're spamming RJW as filter until you oom. I drop on 40k mana in first 30secs of Archimonde and I still finish with full mana and 10+ stacks of MT ( 0 fistweaving ). If I tried so hard, I couldn't go oom.

[Geodew]

I'm just not sure how, as far as pure mp5 goes at my level of spirit going into fights ascension gives 30k mana (6 minute fight), not taking into account any bonuses I'd get from spirit procs, it would be higher (albeit not much, and overall worse mana) if I ran double spirit trinkets and not DF. Also I'm not sure if Ascension spirit counts as your spirit being buffed, if not that's essentially a free mana tea worth of mana every 10 stacks consumed.

In the same 6 minute fight the total mana provided by chi bew and power strikes are about half of that of Ascension (16,464 and 14,112 respectively) Yes those two choices will certainly give me more healing throughput for my talent point, unless I run oom. I just can't see it as cut and dry, for some fights, as ascension is just bad.

That's why I linked the spreadsheet. The math is all there.

Note that if you generate free Chi (doesn't even cost a GCD), Chi gives healing too. You don't need more Spirit if the free Chi gives even more healing than you'd get from more RJW casts. You don't need mana. You need HPS. Both Chi and Mana give HPS. It's a question of which gives more.

Chi is actually about twice as strong in HFC because of the 4pc, which the spreadsheet doesn't take into account. Your Uplifts proc all your Extend Lifes. So Ascension is definitely not helping you. (This would push Power Strikes way ahead for being primarily chi gen, except it procs a lot during downtime, so the Chi Gen is often mostly-wasted on damage.)

I mean even one use of Chi Brew gives you 2.4 (mean) Mana Tea at 20% Crit. If your 30k number is correct for a whole fight (which I don't think it is -- check the spreadsheet), even one use of Chi Brew rivals that.

I'd explain the spreadsheet in more detail, but I think I made it about a year ago. I made it before BRF even came out I think. So I'd have to brush up on it.

[cqwrteur]

I'm not having chi generation problems, I'm having mana problems over the course of healing intensive fights

Here are two major reasons:
1. Your spirit is low.
2. You use Rushing Jade Wind at wrong position or wrong time.

[SimonVonLagMaat]

That's why I linked the spreadsheet. The math is all there.

Note that if you generate free Chi (doesn't even cost a GCD), Chi gives healing too. You don't need more Spirit if the free Chi gives even more healing than you'd get from more RJW casts. You don't need mana. You need HPS. Both Chi and Mana give HPS. It's a question of which gives more.

Chi is actually about twice as strong in HFC because of the 4pc, which the spreadsheet doesn't take into account. Your Uplifts proc all your Extend Lifes. So Ascension is definitely not helping you. (This would push Power Strikes way ahead for being primarily chi gen, except it procs a lot during downtime, so the Chi Gen is often mostly-wasted on damage.)

I mean even one use of Chi Brew gives you 2.4 (mean) Mana Tea at 20% Crit. If your 30k number is correct for a whole fight (which I don't think it is -- check the spreadsheet), even one use of Chi Brew rivals that.

I'd explain the spreadsheet in more detail, but I think I made it about a year ago. I made it before BRF even came out I think. So I'd have to brush up on it.

How are you getting that? My monk's spirit is 784 without ascension, that means a manatea gives 2.4k mana back. That means from a strickly mana usage stand point either PS or Chi brew would have to give you 12.5 mana teas. Chi brew gives you 14 chi and 7 Manateas, we'll say 11 total mana teas if you include chi usage, that puts it at 26k mana returned, unless this relatively easy math is beyond me. I guess with some sort of extreme luck you could see 13 mana teas which would put you into the same mana regen as ascension.

If ascension doesn't increase the mana regen from manatea, which would be slightly hard to quantify.

[Phinkydo]

I think you are also missing the point that Geodew already explained with Ascension all chi generation costs mana where PS/CB its free chi so not only are you getting mana tea stacks which you have calculated you are also getting free healing which you haven't calculated for... So even if Ascension is giving you 30k worth of mana you are having to spend that or more over a course of a fight to generate that extra Chi that would otherwise be free with PS/CB.
I cant be bothered doing the math right now but PS gives 24 chi over 6 min fight to generate that with ascension would cost much more than the 30k re gen it gives you...

[SimonVonLagMaat]

I think you are also missing the point that Geodew already explained with Ascension all chi generation costs mana where PS/CB its free chi so not only are you getting mana tea stacks which you have calculated you are also getting free healing which you haven't calculated for... So even if Ascension is giving you 30k worth of mana you are having to spend that or more over a course of a fight to generate that extra Chi that would otherwise be free with PS/CB.
I cant be bothered doing the math right now but PS gives 24 chi over 6 min fight to generate that with ascension would cost much more than the 30k re gen it gives you...

That I can see as a solid explanation. I'm still not convinced that it's complete trash as stated earlier, but I didn't think about that.

[Geodew]

How are you getting that? My monk's spirit is 784 without ascension, that means a manatea gives 2.4k mana back. That means from a strickly mana usage stand point either PS or Chi brew would have to give you 12.5 mana teas. Chi brew gives you 14 chi and 7 Manateas, we'll say 11 total mana teas if you include chi usage, that puts it at 26k mana returned, unless this relatively easy math is beyond me. I guess with some sort of extreme luck you could see 13 mana teas which would put you into the same mana regen as ascension.

If ascension doesn't increase the mana regen from manatea, which would be slightly hard to quantify.

784 Spirit? What the hell? You should have at least ~2k Spirit from Legendary Ring, IG, and UFE alone, let alone 2nd ring, neck, or cloak. Obviously, if you're playing with Highmaul trinkets and no legendary ring, that's going to change the meta... :P

However, as you can see from the graphs, Ascension is awful even at low Spirit levels.

Sorry, because this will come across as a little bit harsh: If you're not going to look at the spreadsheet I linked and try to understand it, I don't think I can help you further; this discussion is pointless unless you first seek to understand the established theorycraft. First, note that the graphs are not graphs of mana gains, they are graphs of healing gains. Mana translates to healing, and Ascension's mana gains do not convert into enough healing to be competitive. Feel free to post again if you're having trouble understanding the spreadsheet or think you found an error, but if you're arguing your point without viewing the established theorycraft that someone put a lot of effort into, you may as well just plug your ears, assume you're correct, and stop posting.

And "complete trash" is subjective. What can be said as fact is that it's less than half as good as either alternative. Many would call that "complete trash."

[SimonVonLagMaat]

784 Spirit? What the hell? You should have at least ~2k Spirit from Legendary Ring, IG, and UFE alone, let alone 2nd ring, neck, or cloak. Obviously, if you're playing with Highmaul trinkets and no legendary ring, that's going to change the meta... :P

784 spirit unbuffed, with no gear, I thought that is what the tooltip meant when it said unbuffed

[Geodew]

784 spirit unbuffed, with no gear, I thought that is what the tooltip meant when it said unbuffed

No, it means without any buffs. Buffs, as in temporary bonuses. Gear is not buffs. It's designed that way so that Spirit procs don't dynamically change how much mana MT gives, which would force or at least encourage chugging tea during large Spirit procs for 2x-3x the mana gains.

You can turn on Mana Gains in the floating combat text and see for yourself. I'm surprised you didn't notice it was giving much more than 2.4k mana.

[cqwrteur]

784? How could you only have 784 spirit? That means you don't wear any gear?

You might think spirit is not important because of the mana tea. That's not true. Mana tea is a mana management tool but not a mana regeneration mechanism. It does literally nothing to MW's mana.

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No, it means without any buffs. Buffs, as in temporary bonuses. Gear is not buffs. It's designed that way so that Spirit procs don't dynamically change how much mana MT gives, which would force or at least encourage chugging tea during large Spirit procs for 2x-3x the mana gains.

You can turn on Mana Gains in the floating combat text and see for yourself. I'm surprised you didn't notice it was giving much more than 2.4k mana.

So many people are confused by mana tea.xD

[TrollShaman]

So many people are confused by mana tea.xD

Another reason to look forward to 7.0 mistweaver

[cqwrteur]

You can turn on Mana Gains in the floating combat text and see for yourself. I'm surprised you didn't notice it was giving much more than 2.4k mana.

MSBT is an amazing floating combat text addon.

[Staryu]

Another reason to look forward to 7.0 mistweaver

I like mana tea

[Djriff]

I'm honestly taken back that some people thing static spirit on gear is a buff. That would completely ruin Mana tea. At least us priests are getting hymn of hope back

[Deleted]

Hello,

I'm looking for advice about weapon choice, recenlty I recieved Mindscythe of the Legion mythic. Actually I use Mindbender's Flameblade mythic wf. Is it worth to drop few crit and multistrike over spellpower?

[Izzirez]

When I start running low on mana on my priest I get lost in what to do to get it back. Too used to having Mana Tea to just refill my mana bar whenever I want lol.