[GUIDE] Mistweavers of Draenor: PvE Healing in [6.2]

[Buildapanda]

My god PoM is great for Hans&Franz (Mythic), can Uplift while you're standing still and it saves your ReM charges for when you have to be moving. I can't imagine trying to do this fight without the Lv100 talent row. It would be terrible :c

Though in MoP we could Uplift while moving, so we'd have been fine. Just not both of those things plz lol

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I mean correct me if I'm wrong people, cause I guess my guild is some combination of bad and not raiding enough to be there yet, but I think people just take BotS or PoM and fistweave until the Firestorm (make sure to pre-ReM, which is >8sec for BotS) and then heal your tits off then go back to fistweaving? If there's anything else I'd like to hear it too, cause that's where we're going next :P

Idk, even with chi explosion nerf, I still can't get over how good it is with the right trinkets and perfect rotation and use of 4pc. I'm taking xuen, For firestorm I usually CJL Chex, CJL Chex, vital mist+ thunder focus tea(2pc/4pc proc) Chex, Detonate chi, then sit back and drink my mana tea until the 4 wolves spawn again. Pom takes way too many gcds imo.

full disclosure, im not very good so you prolly shoulnd't listen to me. I like to max the spec out, but take a different route.

[Slakos]

So I calculated the stat value's of various heroic and mythic trinkets. Looks like any trinket with static spirit does absurdly well, the top 11 are as follows. Using two regen trinkets along with full spirit gear is too much mana (at least how I heal), so I wanted to compare using two regen trinkets with non spirit jewelry against a regen and throughput trinket. This is a starting point for that goal. All my assumptions are listed in the spreadsheet and are almost entirely based off Geodew's work. You can make a copy of sheet and change stuff if you want (different non RJW stat weights or what ever).

1. Ele's Shielding Talsiman (M)
2. Auto-Repair (M)
3. Ele's Shielding Talsiman (H)
4. Auto-Repair (H)
5. Mark of Rapid Replication (M)
6. Ironspike Chew Toy (M)
7. Blackiron Micro Crucible (M)
8. Goren Soul Repository (M)
9. Ironspike Chew Toy (H)
10. Everburning Candle
11. Blackiron Micro Crucible (H)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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I'm going to compare trinkets and jewelry I have.

This wowhead list is used to identify pieces of jewelry. But the stat weight calculations seem to miss some items and apply some sort of scaling, I don't really trust em.
http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...gb=1;eb=1#back

Regen Trinkets: Ele's Shielding Talsiman (H), Mark of Rapid Replication (M, Socket)
Throughput Trinkets: Blackiron Micro Crucible (H)
Trade: Mark of Rapid... for Blackiron. (-301 spirit) -389 "points"

Regen Cloak: Force Nova (M)
Throughput Cloak: Runescribed (M)
Trading: Multi + Spirit for Haste Multi gain 10 item levels (-97 spirit) -133.6 "points"

Regen Neck: Feldsapr's Control Choker (H)
Throughput Neck: Odyssian Choker (M)
Trading: Spirit for Multistrike, gain 5 item levels (-95 spirit) -105.6 "points"

Regen Ring: Six-Eyed band (H)
Throughput Ring: Signet of Crystalline Barrage (M)
Trading: Spirit for Haste, gain 5 item levels (-93 spirit) -151.3 "points"

Total for Changing my jewelry (-298 spirit) -390.5 "points"

wow about 1 int worth of difference between double regen trinkets and no spirit jewelry (besides leg ring) and one throughput and 1 spirit trinket along with spirit gear. If I got a auto-repair (H) it would become a slight upgrade for me to use it along with no spirit jewelry, then later when I get mythic spirit jewelry it may be worth it to stop using auto-repair. Pretty cool back and forth depending on what pieces of gear you upgrade first.

[Geodew]

Averaging throughput procs isn't trustworthy for Serpent. You always get 100% value from Chew Toy's proc but not Auto-Repairing, for example.

You'd also still need to do the calculation for yourself for warforged or socketed trinkets.

I recommend swapping jewelry if possible (in theory if we could just swap spirit to a throughput stat, ignoring what items are actually available) since that lets us minimize throughput procs (i.e. use chew toy because it's great for consistency).

If we're hitting mana cap, we should start rolling on haste gear in case blizz doesn't change anything for 6.2.

[Deleted]

Averaging throughput procs isn't trustworthy for Serpent. You always get 100% value from Chew Toy's proc but not Auto-Repairing, for example.

to be fair, the theoretical ranking doesn't really change even when you ignore throughput procs. I would never roll on chew toy before other healers if I had e.g. talisman and any other trinket from highmaul imperator or brf with few exceptions.

[Geodew]

to be fair, the theoretical ranking doesn't really change even when you ignore throughput procs. I would never roll on chew toy before other healers if I had e.g. talisman and any other trinket from highmaul imperator or brf with few exceptions.

What? That's not true at all. If you assign literally 0 value to throughput procs, Chewtoy and Candle reign as king up there with the purely passive trinkets from Highmaul. Which you choose depends on how much Spirit you want from your trinkets.

Everyone makes mistakes :3?

[Deleted]

to be fair, the theoretical ranking doesn't really change even when you ignore throughput procs. I would never roll on chew toy before other healers if I had e.g. talisman and any other trinket from highmaul imperator or brf with few exceptions.

If you run with RJW. Chew toys procs are a reliable throughput increase. Auto repairs proc is wasted a lot. Only reason shielding talismans proc is rated so highly is it works so well with Pom and we can track it and cheese it for extra rems and rsk's

[Slakos]

Averaging throughput procs isn't trustworthy for Serpent. You always get 100% value from Chew Toy's proc but not Auto-Repairing, for example.

"...but also dock proc effects (which are much worse than static stats for healers) by 15-30%, depending on its uptime. Thus, using trinkets as a reference point, I recommend we dock the proc effect by 25%, since it’s basically as short as procs go, but has a decent proc rate for a decent uptime"

Doesn't this somewhat account for that all the procs are 10secs with the same proc rate as the legendary ring. The 25% was only applied to throughput procs and not spirit procs. I don't really know where that 25% came from, you might be able to get a better approximation assuming the first proc is always wasted (i rarely do much healing in the first 10 seconds of the fight but all my trinkets proc then), and assume some expected fight length, to get a factor similar to 6.5/7. You would then need to multiply that by the average performance of the proc trinket on a infinite fight (the hard part I don't really know how one would get).

If we're hitting mana cap, we should start rolling on haste gear in case blizz doesn't change anything for 6.2.

Maybe, I don't really know how to make use of your stat weights after mana cap. Once you reach mana cap it's probably not the best idea to swap all your gems for haste. Instead what people do and is probably a better idea is you basically swap spirit for throughput pieces by swapping gear and jewelry. Spirit has some new value not only based on how much mana it gains but also what throughput benefit you can gain by swapping some other piece away from spirit. Haste becomes more valuable not because mana is useless but because the inefficiency that may occur when swapping a nice spirit piece for sub standard throughput piece, and the negative mana loss effect of haste is lessened. This is a fairly complex optimization problem, it isn't too bad when trying to compare a few pieces of gear, but for long term gear planning as you progress slowly/normal rate (lots of gruul loot available before blastfurnace is) it is really difficult.

[Deleted]

The only thing a heavy haste proc is even good for is a period of big RJW usage. So I would have thought it's usefulness as a proc would be a lot lower than the -15-30% penalty you've applied.
Obviously quicker globals are useful but since haste doesn't reduce the cooldown of our ReM and Expel harm. It reduces globals but it's effect on chi generated and uplifts dumped out is pretty minor, since we're tied into fixed cooldowns.

It's a contradictory trinket, it gives a lot of mana while also wasting it. Procs when it's ineffective and makes you burn mana. Only fight I could think it would be good would be where you either fistweave a lot or where there's continuous heavy damage. But even then if you were going to fistweave a lot you'd go double int & not static spirit.

Just can't think of a situation where if I had every trinket, I'd actually use that one.

[Geodew]

"...but also dock proc effects (which are much worse than static stats for healers) by 15-30%, depending on its uptime. Thus, using trinkets as a reference point, I recommend we dock the proc effect by 25%, since it’s basically as short as procs go, but has a decent proc rate for a decent uptime"

Doesn't this somewhat account for that all the procs are 10secs with the same proc rate as the legendary ring. The 25% was only applied to throughput procs and not spirit procs. I don't really know where that 25% came from, you might be able to get a better approximation assuming the first proc is always wasted (i rarely do much healing in the first 10 seconds of the fight but all my trinkets proc then), and assume some expected fight length, to get a factor similar to 6.5/7. You would then need to multiply that by the average performance of the proc trinket on a infinite fight (the hard part I don't really know how one would get).

Sorry, I was posting from mobile so I couldn't see your spreadsheet. I see now that you already accounted for that. I figured you were just taking the average because that list order looks quite familiar.

I guess I see what's happening now -- Chew Toy has most of its itemization in the Spirit proc, which is lower value than the Int, and Auto-Repairing has most of its itemization in the static Spirit, which is much higher value than the Haste. So, wow, it's actually not that terrible as I thought it would be. Apologies, Tharia, it seems my mental math was way off on this one, cause it looks like you're right. The two static Spirit trinkets are worth using over Candle and Mythic Chew Toy even if you set their throughput procs to 0 (although Ele Talisman only barely, because it has lower Spirit, but it has a nicer MS proc anyway). That's quite surprising. (Of course only if assuming below Spirit cap for now.)

I guess my suggestion would then be to try to get the Mythic Auto-Repairing Autoclave in the event that your guild actually manages to down Mythic Blackhand before the next tier just in case they lower our mana cap again (or hold onto it if you get it from your Garrison mission), but double Spirit trinkets is probably overkill on a lot of bosses for now... I guess we'll see when the rest of us plebs actually get to them >.>

Maybe, I don't really know how to make use of your stat weights after mana cap. Once you reach mana cap it's probably not the best idea to swap all your gems for haste. Instead what people do and is probably a better idea is you basically swap spirit for throughput pieces by swapping gear and jewelry. Spirit has some new value not only based on how much mana it gains but also what throughput benefit you can gain by swapping some other piece away from spirit. Haste becomes more valuable not because mana is useless but because the inefficiency that may occur when swapping a nice spirit piece for sub standard throughput piece, and the negative mana loss effect of haste is lessened. This is a fairly complex optimization problem, it isn't too bad when trying to compare a few pieces of gear, but for long term gear planning as you progress slowly/normal rate (lots of gruul loot available before blastfurnace is) it is really difficult.

Ideally you'd want to swap Spirit for Multistrike, or Versatility if that's not possible (Crit loses value above mana cap). However, if it's impossible to ditch enough Spirit to stay around mana cap, Haste is optimal in that case because it provides lots of throughput while pushing you back towards the mana cap. It's a careful balance, though, because if you find yourself lacking mana, then all that Haste is wasted. It's not very good design, to be completely honest.

We should keep in mind, though, that whether or not we need Spirit depends heavily on fight mechanics, and final tiers tend to have lots of stacked-raid burst healing, so we may see our mana cap rise dramatically. Our Mythic Highmaul effective Spirit with trinkets was about 1850 in BiS, 2200 in full Spirit BRF gear, for only 10 item levels. I'm not sure how Blizz will do the item levels since we'll have two adjacent four-difficulty raid tiers for the first time, but if the jump in ilvl is 20, then that'll put us at about 2900 in full Spirit gear in BiS next tier. You can cast one additional RJW every 7 minutes for every 115.5 Spirit (just an estimate since it ignores SooM+SM cost), so that's about +0.85 RJW casts per minute from BRF BiS to next-tier BiS. That doesn't really sound like a lot to me considering devs will EXPECT us to have more mana. It's all fight mechanics, really.

(Even though that's not many additional RJW casts, RJW is REALLY strong, which is why Spirit is a good stat in theory. The difference between changing a GCD from SooM+SM to RJW is suddenly doing about 370% of your normal healing in that GCD, whereas Crit only gives you a chance to heal for 200%.)

[Deleted]

I guess my suggestion would then be to try to get the Mythic Auto-Repairing Autoclave in the event that your guild actually manages to down Mythic Blackhand before the next tier just in case they lower our mana cap again (or hold onto it if you get it from your Garrison mission), but double Spirit trinkets is probably overkill on a lot of bosses for now... I guess we'll see when the rest of us plebs actually get to them >.>

Autoclave + talisman is indeed overkill on almost all mythic bosses. I think Blast Furnace is the only one I use all the mana from the two trinkets efficiently. All the others offer just too many possibilities for crane. Blackhand maybe, haven't seen p3 yet, but p2 should in theory allow some fistweaving once we get the strategy down properly.

[Geodew]

Ideally you'd want to swap Spirit for Multistrike, or Versatility if that's not possible (Crit loses value above mana cap). However, if it's impossible to ditch enough Spirit to stay around mana cap, Haste is optimal in that case because it provides lots of throughput while pushing you back towards the mana cap.

I should say that here "impossible" doesn't mean you can't drop Spirit; there are always throughput gearing options. We could run with "DPS" gear at the base Spirit of ~900 if we really wanted to. However, if your throughput options involve Haste and/or Mastery, especially Mastery, that's not very good. You should swap out other pieces first, then swap Spirit for some Haste if you still can't get low enough, and then if you're still not low enough, then swap out Crit then Vers for Haste on non-Spirit gear slots.

[Rife]

Since you seem so intent on basing your view of Mistweavers on a single kill of a boss, I'll tell you why that's such a bad idea.

My view of Mistweavers is based on playing one, logs, playing a HPal and watching kill videos from the best guilds in the world, yours being one of them. I think you're a fantastic player playing a class that isn't. Blizzard go with the "bring the player not the class" approach which I think at the highest levels is bullshit when you could bring the player and the class instead.

First, our strategy involved splitting the healers up, 3 to one side (2xPally + Disc), 2 to the other (Monk + Druid). The side with 3 healers, essentially only 2 because the Priest was using MC most of the time, had the most difficult healing assignment. Each Paladin was pulling upwards of 70k hps just in the first phase while on the other side the Druid and Monk were only doing around 40k. The Monk and Druid weren't doing less healing because those classes suck, but because the damage taken on their side was extremely low in comparison to the other. If you're going to tie healer strength so tightly with HPS or total healing done, then you should at least take this into account.

My issue here is that having double Hpal on one side makes that strat possible and the same wouldn't be possible if you put literally any other healer on that duty. Double Hpal can push 70k HPS phase 1 without mana limitations causing problems later in the fight. A druid/monk/sham can't do that. Not even the priest could match that but I assume PWS adds valuable EHP to anyone in danger on that side which gives the HPals time to use Holy Light to heal efficiently. I'd be interested in seeing logs/video of any guild in the world killing Mythic Blast Furnace without HPals, actually.

Second, the type of damage taken is important to consider. The vast majority of damage taken during phase 1 and for the earlier part of phase 2 is tank damage. Raid damage doesn't start to become high until Heat starts really stacking up. Once Heat has gotten high enough, though, it's obvious how quickly the Monk and Druid are able to catch up. They are not, however, going to be able to overcome the large difference in total healing output created within the first 3 or so minutes of the fight.

Again, my issue is that every single fight in the game has tank damage that needs serious healing. Thus Hpals are invariably amazing healers on 10/10 fights. The same is not true for MW'ers or raidwide healing. Some fights are more suited to burst raidwide healing every X seconds, some are sustained raidwide damage, some are stacked, some are spread, etc. MW'ers are well suited to SOME of those circumstances but not ALL whereas HPals are suited to ALL tank healing and SOME aoe healing situations (wings 1.5mins/3mins, Prism) and usually having 1/2 HPals in the raid means that when the raidwide damage starts going out they cover the tanks 100% and the throughput healer in the raid (druid/rsham/mw) can spend all their globals on pure aoe throughput. This is also why having a Disc in the raid is so great. PWS buys the people taking more damage time to get healed up efficiently from other sources so the throughput healer doesn't need to panic and start Soothing/Surging a specific person and can instead devote GCD's to uplift.

If the entire raid is taking constant damage, how is a Paladin supposed to stabilize that raid? Sure, inside the duration of Wings they can do amazing healing, but outside of that relatively brief window, they do not have the blanket throughput that Monks have. This argument you're presenting shows a clear lack of understanding of the effectiveness of different healing classes and why guilds consistently choose to have a varied healer comp rather than stacking the one spec that does the most HPS. HPS is important, but it is far from the most important factor when deciding on a healer comp.

A HPal is not supposed to stabalize the raid alone. Their job is to take care of the tanks while healing individuals that will need more HPS than average. An easy example is on Beastlord (or pretty much every other fight in the game to some degree) where debuffs are out on specific people while raidwide damage is going out. The HPal(s) keep the tanks healed up while adding some HPS to the guys with bleed stacks or the ones who took breath damage while the MW/Rsham/Druid provides the raidwide throughput necessary to get through Trample.

I don't know what "varied healer comp" you're talking about. Your own guild's comp has been Hpal/Hpal/Disc/Throughput for much of BRF, same goes for Method and many other top guilds. Sure it's possible to run other healing comps effectively but it's far from ideal. The fact remains that 4 slots are available in a typical healing comp. Hpal/Hpal/Disc gets you absorbs, PWS, Devo x 2, Barrier, Sac x 4, BoP x 4, Wings suited to 1.5m or 3m depending on fight x 2, efficient tank healing and spot healing all taken care of without worrying about mana or long fights. Then you're left to fill the 4th and final spot with a throughput healer your raid can funnel spirit trinkets/necks/rings to who has to manage the comparatively few raidwide damage phases. This setup ensures you have all facets of healing covered for any fight while also allowing each of those healers to do exactly what they are amazing at doing.

Variation from this comp means you lose efficiency with your healers. Without the Disc you get other healers panicking when someone drops low and they use their expensive heals to get that person out of danger. Without the Hpals you get the Disc/Throughput healers having to tank heal with inefficient spells like soothing/surging and without the throughput healer you get the hpals/disc trying to raidwide heal which they either cannot do or cannot do cheaply/timely. But with that perfect comp you get each healer doing exactly what they are BEST at doing without missing any niches and the power of each spec is brought to bear.

If you're unhappy with Mistweavers, then explain how you would improve them. If you only complain about a problem, but never actually suggest a solution to that problem, then what you're doing is rather pointless.

I'm unhappy with Mistweavers compared to other healers. I think the problem is the power/necessity of Disc and Hpals rather than the weakness of MW'ers.

But 6.1 pretty much confirms that Blizzard is happy with the meta the way it is. If any changes were in the pipeline we would have seen them in 6.1. Now that the BRF race is over I'm betting we won't see any changes until the next tier which leaves us with a few months as is, if not even longer than that. I personally find it more rewarding to play a strong spec well and be able to carry if necessary than play a weak class well and not be able to do that. That's personal preference though. To each their own.

My Hpal is almost as geared as my MW now, anyway.

[Supliftz]

TL;DR Hpals are op.

I don't get how hpals/disc/ being op makes monks weak? Monks have shown more than viable in the Hpal/Hpal/Disc/Throughput healer 4 heal meta we've seen. I mean sure, resto shamans are overall stronger compared to monks, (SHOUTOUT TO OVERBUFFING, #healingtideisbalanced), but that does not mean monks are remotely weak.

[Rife]

TL;DR Hpals are op.

I don't get how hpals/disc/ being op makes monks weak? Monks have shown more than viable in the Hpal/Hpal/Disc/Throughput healer 4 heal meta we've seen. I mean sure, resto shamans are overall stronger compared to monks, (SHOUTOUT TO OVERBUFFING, #healingtideisbalanced), but that does not mean monks are remotely weak.

Monks have their place for sure. They are a capable throughput healer on equal footing with Rdruids imo. I agree Rsham is #1 throughput healer at the moment also just because of how many cooldowns they bring and how strong their mastery can be. But no healing comp really suffers too much by bringing mw/druid/rsham as their throughput healer because each can cover their role without issue.

As for being weak; being a middle of the pack throughput healer while not being truly viable (strong) in any other role is weak when other healers are #1 in at least one thing. Hpals #1 tank heals, Rsham #1 aoe/throughput healer, Disc #1 absorb/spot healer, Rdruid #1 on the move healing with ways to get tranq out while moving/immune.

I think MW, Rdruid (to a lesser extent) and Hpriest are all pretty weak at the moment because while they may shine in some situations and perform well in some niche's of healing, other healers perform well in all areas or are at least useful to a raid on every fight. It's easy to cherry pick good/bad fights for MW but ignore the Forrest for the trees. If you're raiding on a MW you're good/decent on ~6/10 fights. If you're raiding on Hpal/Disc/Rsham you're good on all fights always and thus either that's OP or MW is weak.

Semantics I suppose. Whichever way you want to see it.

[Geodew]

Yeah, the real problem isn't that HPal's HPS overall is too strong, period, but rather that no one can match their tank healing while also putting out that much total HPS. For Disc, no one can even mechanically put out that many absorbs; it's literally impossible. That's why both are too mandatory. The answer to that is to spread around the healing roles. Right now you have

REPORT CARD
Effective Health: Disc A+, Paladin C, everyone else F
Tank Heals: Paladin A+, Disc B, everyone else D
Raid Heals: Disc C, Paladin C, everyone else A+

which forces them into roles like so

Absorb healers: Disc Priest
Tank healers: Holy Paladin
Raid healers: MW Monk, Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Holy Priest

So, why did they go for a 1-1-4 breakdown? 'Cause that pretty obviously is going to make Disc and Paladin mandatory for every fight, and thus they never sit, which means the throughput healers sit more often. I don't get their reasoning, even if they're "happy with the meta" as you say they apparently are.

It would have made more sense if e.g. Pally could spec into strong absorbs at the cost of tank healing (bring back Eternal Flame shield blanketing?) and one-to-two of the raid healers could spec into strong tank healing at the cost of raid healing. Naturally, this should be done with talents. Maybe also give Resto Shaman the ability to spec into Ancestral Vigor (maybe buffed a bit from its previous 10% incarnation) at the cost of some raid healing talent.

We're kinda beating this topic to death, though, guys.

[Supliftz]

It's easy to cherry pick good/bad fights for MW but ignore the Forrest for the trees. If you're raiding on a MW you're good/decent on ~6/10 fights. If you're raiding on Hpal/Disc/Rsham you're good on all fights always and thus either that's OP or MW is weak.

Hang on what.

Outside of Iron Maidens (honestly not really a bad mw fight TBH), and I guess Flamebender. What other fights are we weak on?

Gruul: Strong
Oregorger: Really Strong (one of the best monk fights here)
Blast Furance: Strong, (again another good monk fight)
Beastlord: Strong
Thogar: Really Strong, (this is honestly the best monk fight in this instance).
Iron Maidens: Average, all throughput healers blow here. Monks are okay because of crane/decent overall tank healing imo.
H&F: Strong, RJW is really stronk on this fight, same with revival.
Flamebender: Average, obviously strong for firestorm and doing damage during the lul period. Average at handling face tanking dogs (honestly not -that- bad).
Kromog: One of the better monk fights because of the damage pattern/ToD utility.
Blackhand: Strong P1 healing with rjw, average p2, Strong p3 healing again due to rjw.

So I honestly struggle to believe monks are bad on 4/10 fights in this instance.

Monks aren't remotely close to being bad.

[Monkioh]

It's become a sort of mini-tradition among some of our healers to say a phrase after we've killed a high healing requirement boss. That phrase is, "That healer balance." We don't say it with sarcasm and we truly see balance among the different healers. We can look at fights where healers are given equal opportunities to heal and see that they all performed well enough to not hold back either the other healers or the raid as a whole.

I've said it many times before, but I'll say it again. Healers are really well balanced right now, probably more than they've ever been. Yes, Paladins are good on most fights because most fights have high tank damage, but you could not fill a raid with Paladins and expect to do well. Keep in mind that when I say this, I'm referring to Mythic raid progression. This conversation is silly to have once raids have enough gear to overcome any minor differences between healers. From my experience, I do not think any healer is at enough of a disadvantage that bringing it would slow down or halt your progression on a boss.

Everyone will have different opinions on which healers are fun, boring, clunky, or interesting to play and that's great, but I do not think it's fair to say that Monks are a weak healer. I have played mine and gotten great mileage out of it. They are considered to be the most complex healer at the moment, so maybe that's what is making people believe they are weak? I don't know. I do know that I am not going to be participating in this conversation again unless it starts like this:

"Mistweaver Monks are weak. This is why and here is how I would make them stronger."

[Geodew]

I do know that I am not going to be participating in this conversation again unless it starts like this: "Mistweaver Monks are weak. This is why and here is how I would make them stronger."

You also have to make sure Spirit is still good once you raise the mana cap, hence why I was suggesting raising the cost of RJW/SCK which you don't really use in PvP/CMs However, that would make Spirit even stronger. I'm trying to think of a way to raise the mana cap but also buff us in PvP/CMs and keep the Spirit stat weight about the same, all at the same time. What would you guys do if you were a dev? Any ideas?

^ I think raising the mana cap will be important to keeping the spec fun in 6.2.

No, really, any ideas? There are a couple things they could do, some nerfs and some buffs, but none of them raise the mana cap with no other potentially-adverse effects, such as lowering/raising the stat weight of Spirit or increasing our burst beyond what it already is.

-> Raise mana cost of SM? Lowers Spirit weight. Dicks over PvP/CMs. Has very little effect when you already spam RJW.
-> Raise mana cost of SM and RJW both? Can be done to maintain the same Spirit weight, but still dicks over PvP/CMs.
-> Raise mana cost and healing done of RJW? Can be done to maintain the same Spirit weight, but increases our burst.
-> Raise mana cost of RJW? Lowers Spirit weight. May be the most acceptable option considering how high it is now, except it could push Spirit proc weight below Multistrike and Crit, which would cause us to gear for throughput trinkets in some/many cases.
-> Raise mana cost of ReM? Helpful to a point, but then people would just stop using it and talent CE at some point (e.g. if you increased it to absurdity). Also lowers the stat weight of Multistrike. (Currently approximates ReM and SM mana costs as equal, but that whole Jade Mists part is fudged right now anyway.)

[Deleted]

Lets start a twitter campaign to delete paladins and disc priests.

[Monkioh]

Lets start a twitter campaign to delete paladins and disc priests.

But then we would have to tank heal and that would suck.