[6.0 Guide] Fury - "I just spent 10 seconds mastering Arms, now what?"

[Sethanor]

not sure if bugged or just stupid blizzard shit:

Sweeping Strikes has a 15 sec runtime AND 15 sec cooldown (so my feeling was right) ... the perk "SHOULD" add only 5s runtime, but appearently they fucked up yet again ...

[Archimtiros]

not sure if bugged or just stupid blizzard shit:

Sweeping Strikes has a 15 sec runtime AND 15 sec cooldown (so my feeling was right) ... the perk "SHOULD" add only 5s runtime, but appearently they fucked up yet again ...

Wrong thread.

[Sethanor]

rofl shit xD ... just made the same mistake as you >.< ...

i second this: sleep is important XD

[Deleted]

Dragon Roar is a knockdown. Siegebreaker would be fine if it knocked back the target far enough to charge it (and that actually generated rage).

I think Dragon Roar is still a knockback in addition to knockdown because when I think back to Cata, the Throwdown(can't remember the exact name if it wasn't that, it was a ~5 second stun with a ~1min cd or something) talent used to knock the target down, but as far as I recall there was no knocback effect whatsoever.

And I have a feeling it would still be a senseless ability for a warrior (although it would make more sense than it is now, I mean I don't think it could be any worse than the current version), because Charges can be quite valuable and to waste it just to use your ability to do damage or interrupt a spell, still doesn't feel like a smart ability in my opinion.

The only time I can think of taking it in PvP currently is in a healer zerging comp to add the additional "stun" without it sharing DR with other stuns (or maybe if u have many fears in your team so it's DRing a lot), but even then you don't usually want to push the target away in that scenario even if you can charge, you might outrange your partner, so doesn't really make sense either way in my opinion. But at least it would get more use that way, being able to charge to it, and also maybe see some use since it would be a decent knockback in that case and might be used in some arenas. And on top of losing fear, you're losing AM, which having your cds available 30 seconds earlier than normal can be the decider of a victory or a loss.

Thankfully in PvE the knockback is mostly a non-issue anyway, thanks to bosses being immune.

That being said I don't even know why Charge has a minimum range, would it be overpowered if you could charge 5 yards? lol. I mean I understand using it as a 2nd rage generator in PvE might have some implication, whether that would be OP or not is another debate, but you can't even do that anymore, so what's the point of the minimum range really.

[Archimtiros]

I think Dragon Roar is still a knockback in addition to knockdown because when I think back to Cata, the Throwdown(can't remember the exact name if it wasn't that, it was a ~5 second stun with a ~1min cd or something) talent used to knock the target down, but as far as I recall there was no knocback effect whatsoever.

And I have a feeling it would still be a senseless ability for a warrior (although it would make more sense than it is now, I mean I don't think it could be any worse than the current version), because Charges can be quite valuable and to waste it just to use your ability to do damage or interrupt a spell, still doesn't feel like a smart ability in my opinion.

The only time I can think of taking it in PvP currently is in a healer zerging comp to add the additional "stun" without it sharing DR with other stuns (or maybe if u have many fears in your team so it's DRing a lot), but even then you don't usually want to push the target away in that scenario even if you can charge, you might outrange your partner, so doesn't really make sense either way in my opinion. But at least it would get more use that way, being able to charge to it, and also maybe see some use since it would be a decent knockback in that case and might be used in some arenas. And on top of losing fear, you're losing AM, which having your cds available 30 seconds earlier than normal can be the decider of a victory or a loss.

Thankfully in PvE the knockback is mostly a non-issue anyway, thanks to bosses being immune.

That being said I don't even know why Charge has a minimum range, would it be overpowered if you could charge 5 yards? lol. I mean I understand using it as a 2nd rage generator in PvE might have some implication, whether that would be OP or not is another debate, but you can't even do that anymore, so what's the point of the minimum range really.

Dragon Roar is a knock down, not a direct knock back, it is not on the stun DR table.

Throwdown never had a knock back effect. It physically knocked the target (animation) down but worked as a stun and was on the stun DR table. The actual tooltip read: "Knocks the target down and stuns them for 5s."

Warriors have until now never had a knock back ability, because it opposes our primary function of meleeing people to death. Like I said, I'm not very fond of the ability either, but it could have interesting applications if it knocked targets back far enough that we could charge them (and that charge still generated rage). That way we could chain combo dumping rage, knock back, charge for rage, dump more rage.

Charge has a minimum range because its intended to be a gap closer and combat opener, not something used on cooldown for rage generation (ignoring the fact that you no longer generate rage when using it against the same target). Not having a minimum range would serve zero purpose.

It is as you said though, largely useless in PvP.

[sjsctt]

Dragon roar still knocks them out of place, though. Maybe it is not on a table, but it is obvious in game that it displaces the ads.

[Deleted]

Dragon Roar is a knock down, not a knock back, it is not on the stun DR table.

Throwdown never had a knock back effect. It physically knocked the target (animation) down but worked as a stun and was on the stun DR table. The actual tooltip read: "Knocks the target down and stuns them for 5s."

Warriors have until now never had a knock back ability, because it opposes our primary function of meleeing people to death. Like I said, I'm not very fond of the ability either, but it could have interesting applications if it knocked targets back far enough that we could charge them (and that charge still generated rage). That way we could chain combo dumping rage, knock back, charge for rage, dump more rage.

Charge has a minimum range because its intended to be a gap closer and combat opener, not something used on cooldown for rage generation (ignoring the fact that you no longer generate rage when using it against the same target). Not having a minimum range would serve zero purpose.

It is as you said though, largely useless in PvP.

Yeah, that's what I mean, I wish it would be like that throwdown mechanic (speaking in terms of dis-positioning the mobs, not the stun part), so it actually just knocks the targets down, because when some packs aren't tightly gathered you spread them out even more when you Dragon Roar in a bad spot, like from the center of the pack.

The minimum charge range while mostly a non-issue, can sometimes be really frustrating. Some encounters where bosses have big hitboxes can mess up charge, due to the fact that you're used to the minimum range and when the boss has a huge range it's not always obvious that it would actually be within the min. range limit (since if the boss is 12 yards away, but it has a big hitbox you still can't charge it, but you're used to being able to charge targets that far usually), or for example the little knockbacks that you get in Imperator with pulse thingy he does, couldn't remember the name of any abilities, but I guess you get the idea, I would just run away in the other direction 1-2 yards to charge back rather then running the 5-6 yards towards the boss for example. Oh and sometimes the tank will decide to move exactly in my direction when I'm doing that, when that happens I just stop doing everything and facepalm for a few seconds, then keep going if I'm not already dead.

Some scenarios when you're trying to close gaps in PvP but they're at like 6 yards, you're both slowed you can't catch up, you have to do the same running out of range and then charging back, and for example if they're near a pillar they might LoS you by the time u run out to charge back in. I mean the whole "running out to charge back" is really annoying and counter intuitive.

Even if it's not a big deal "just run the 6 yards you don't need to charge if it's that close", it's just really frustrating because I'm used to getting on stuff with charge, so it doesn't always occur to me that I'm within that limit and I just hit charge and kind of have a mini wtf am I still not there moment, it gets me disgruntled.

[Archimtiros]

Dragon roar still knocks them out of place, though. Maybe it is not on a table, but it is obvious in game that it displaces the ads.

Well it does have a very slight backwards component I'll admit, but it can't be used to effectively move people off cliffs and whatnot the way Siegebreaker and similar effects can. Perhaps the proper words would be to say it doesn't have a noticeable or significant knockback.

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Yeah, that's what I mean, I wish it would be like that throwdown mechanic (speaking in terms of dis-positioning the mobs, not the stun part), so it actually just knocks the targets down, because when some packs aren't tightly gathered you spread them out even more when you Dragon Roar in a bad spot, like from the center of the pack.

The minimum charge range while mostly a non-issue, can sometimes be really frustrating. Some encounters where bosses have big hitboxes can mess up charge, due to the fact that you're used to the minimum range and when the boss has a huge range it's not always obvious that it would actually be within the min. range limit (since if the boss is 12 yards away, but it has a big hitbox you still can't charge it, but you're used to being able to charge targets that far usually), or for example the little knockbacks that you get in Imperator with pulse thingy he does, couldn't remember the name of any abilities, but I guess you get the idea, I would just run away in the other direction 1-2 yards to charge back rather then running the 5-6 yards towards the boss for example. Oh and sometimes the tank will decide to move exactly in my direction when I'm doing that, when that happens I just stop doing everything and facepalm for a few seconds, then keep going if I'm not already dead.

Some scenarios when you're trying to close gaps in PvP but they're at like 6 yards, you're both slowed you can't catch up, you have to do the same running out of range and then charging back, and for example if they're near a pillar they might LoS you by the time u run out to charge back in. I mean the whole "running out to charge back" is really annoying and counter intuitive.

Even if it's not a big deal "just run the 6 yards you don't need to charge if it's that close", it's just really frustrating because I'm used to getting on stuff with charge, so it doesn't always occur to me that I'm within that limit and I just hit charge and kind of have a mini wtf am I still not there moment, it gets me disgruntled.

This is all true, but the flipside would be a very broken ability if it had no minimum range, because you'd chain charge to gain rage on cooldown (again, ignoring the new charge mechanics, could still be tricked on multitarget though). Imagine how ridiculous a fight like Iron Maidens would get because of it.

The ability is primarily there for gap closing, so your right, sometimes it's better to go 2 yards away then charge in. WRT bosses being dragged away, I generally try not to use charge for that anyways, since it usually puts me too far behind the target to attack anyways. I'd use Heroic Leap or a sprint (if able) instead. Intervene works too (and doesn't have a minimum range). Not on the tank of course, but on a nearby Rogue or other melee can work wonders.

[rashy]

The knock back on DR is definately noticable, it can easily knock adds away from melee range, cleave range and other stuff that requires positioning. It just shouldn't be there at all, it doesn't achieve anything beneficial whatsoever. Want to put a knockdown on it? Fine, go nuts. Slight knockback? Useless, as well as an annoyance. Just get rid of it.

I'm surprised the range on Charge hasn't been tweaked after all this time. It should be 1 yard greater than melee range or something. If you can't whack at it, then you should be able to Charge it, not have this awkward threshold that you can't do either that doesn't make any sense. It is pretty simple QoL change that should have been implemented when they consolidated Charge and Intercept.

Trying to Charge an unrootable target is annoying as shit too. Use your gap closer, oh wait, still aren't in range to hit the boss. Doesn't help with ADHD tanks which one is also a guild officer so you can't tell him off to get him to stay still for 5 seconds at a time.

[Archimtiros]

The knock back on DR is definately noticable, it can easily knock adds away from melee range, cleave range and other stuff that requires positioning. It just shouldn't be there at all, it doesn't achieve anything beneficial whatsoever. Want to put a knockdown on it? Fine, go nuts. Slight knockback? Useless, as well as an annoyance. Just get rid of it.

I'm surprised the range on Charge hasn't been tweaked after all this time. It should be 1 yard greater than melee range or something. If you can't whack at it, then you should be able to Charge it, not have this awkward threshold that you can't do either that doesn't make any sense. It is pretty simple QoL change that should have been implemented when they consolidated Charge and Intercept.

Trying to Charge an unrootable target is annoying as shit too. Use your gap closer, oh wait, still aren't in range to hit the boss. Doesn't help with ADHD tanks which one is also a guild officer so you can't tell him off to get him to stay still for 5 seconds at a time.

It's very rare that charge leaves you outside of melee range. It usually only happens for the strangest hitboxes or when a target is moving, and that has always been an issue. Problem is every bosses hit box is different, so its not as easy to say as "+1 yard from melee range". As for its minimum range, it's there to keep you from using it as part of your rotation. If it was simply 1-25 yard range, you could just back step and charge, which would get ridiculous (if you remember that's why Heroic Charge was killed).

For the KB on dragon roar... it's like 2 yards. Dumb? Sure. But is it breaking anything? Not really. You shouldn't be using DR before something like Bladestorm anyways and a smart warrior will position himself to knock outside targets inward, not stand in the center and knock targets away on all sides.

[Sethanor]

ofc the knockback on DR is not a problem for a skilled player ... but its still one of those shitty little annoyances that we have to endure.

same goes for Siegebreaker... the whole ability makes NO sense at all: the knockback is too small to actually get rid of someone ... but its too big to keep em close enough for dmg ...

those are just the "little" things that really start to piss me off ... even more so than the whole rng-heavy rotation itself or the asinine arms "rotation".
its the things you dont care about, when everything else is good, but it isnt, so the little things start to pile up and before you even know it, you are knee-deep in crap xD

also on that list: useless perks, mandatory glyphs that we had for 2 expansions now, fucked up layout of the talent tree, etc.

its just when you look at all those weird implementations, you really start to thing: had they a different dev for every talent/glyph/whatever so that there are no synergies at all? or are they just really going the lazy road to try how far they can push our patience

edit: spelling

[Archimtiros]

ofc the knockback on DR is not a problem for a skilled player ... but its still one of those shitty little annoyances that we have to endure.

same goes for Siegebreaker... the whole ability makes NO sense at all: the knockback is too small to actually get rid of someone ... but its too big to keep em close enough for dmg ...

those are just the "little" things that really start to piss me off ... even more so than the whole rng-heavy rotation itself or the asinine arms "rotation".
its the things you dont care about, when everything else is good, but it isnt, so the little things start to pile up and before you even know it, you are knee-deep in crap xD

also on that list: useless perks, mandatory glyphs that we had for 2 expansions now, fucked up layout of the talent tree, etc.

its just when you look at all those weird implementations, you really start to thing: had they a different dev for every talent/glyph/whatever so that there are no synergies at all? or are they just really going the lazy road to try how far they can push our patience

edit: spelling

Oh I'll agree with all that. In fact we were just talking about it (not warrior related though) on mumble. This entire expansion is filled with great concepts but really sloppy execution. That point carries over perfectly with regard to Warriors. Specifically what you mentioned. Our Glyph choices are really messy, our talent tree is completely detrimental to our balancing, and the leveling perk system... just doesn't work out well. That doesn't just apply to our class, though I think "perks" like Improved Recklessness are a special kind of evil.

[Deleted]

For the KB on dragon roar... it's like 2 yards. Dumb? Sure. But is it breaking anything? Not really. You shouldn't be using DR before something like Bladestorm anyways and a smart warrior will position himself to knock outside targets inward, not stand in the center and knock targets away on all sides.

That's the thing though, I admit it's not a huge issue, however it's whole existence is so pointless, not even remotely useful as a knockback, it's just a mere annoyance.

I mean think of a scenario on Dramac normally you could just keep on whacking at the boss cleave with whirlwind, and go on about your busiuness, the adds die soon after one stacked Meatcleaver anyway, but you have to leave the boss target one of the adds (hoping your tab doesn't target one of the stupid spears because tab cycling on that boss is really fucking stupid for some reason), so that you have something to hit while you run behind the adds so you don't lose on rage and BT if CDs off, use DR then move back in position. I mean yes this only takes a few seconds, but what I'm trying to say is there is absolutely no reason for this nuisance to exist in the first place.

Then there are times I'm not able to hit all the adds (unless I'm right in the middle) because they're not bunched up well (our tanks are not that bright).


Regarding Charge, I get that it would be broken, that's why I never complained about it earlier, because before there was really no sensible solution to it, even if you made it to not give rage below 8 yards that would be really counter-intuitive as well. But I'm saying in it's current form, there's no reason not to remove it, or perhaps make it something like 4-5 yards.

The only argument against it having no requirement whatsoever I guess (in it's current form) would be being able to stun from melee with Warbringer, but is that even a problem? I mean it's a 20 second cooldown, you're losing one of 2 gap closers both with significant cooldowns, it's a tradeoff.


Then again, we have so many bigger and fundamental problems with our class currently, I'm not even sure why I brought these up :P

[Archimtiros]

DR doesn't knock adds back far enough to remove them from cleave range. I think you are over-inflating the situation to try to make a point. The only time the positioning I was speaking of before really comes into play is when adds are moving around, such as being dragged with Thogar, or running in on the tank. Grips effectively nullify this issue.

There is reason not to remove the charge minimum range, because you could too easily abuse it. Even though Charge no longer generates rage when used against the same target, fights like Maidens could easily fall victim to a constant-charge rotation. The annoyance that you speak of is far too circumstantial to really make it worth changing. I've never really had a problem with it, but perhaps I am simply more cognizant of my positioning.

It's not that your issues don't have merit. They are simply small concerns. I fully agree that Dragon Roar's knock back component is worthless and unnecessary, though I just have never let it negatively affect my performance.

I don't agree with the Charge change though, and that is simply because it would cause more problems than it might potentially fix.

[cross34]

Not sure if it is still the case as I barely PVP anymore, but the minimum range on charge used to be important for certain classes (like Rogue) to be able to kite Warriors in a "deadzone". Just a random and probably useless thought I remembered while reading through your back-and-forths

[Sethanor]

wtb +1 yard melee range for TG because bigger weapons are bigger xD
(just kidding, fuck TG, im sick and tired of all those badly scaled 2h weapons hanging on my back -.- ... #hope4gruul)

b2t: charge with no minimum-range would be pretty stupid ... only thing that NEEDS to come back is rage-generation from charge ... they really need to fix the whole rage-shit for arms and give back the normal charge-rage gen so we actually get SOME sort of compensation for downtime ... or find an alternative to compensate.

[rashy]

Whether or not a boss has a big hit box the melee range is the same. You can still toggle Charge to be on the edge of the range and it wouldn't cause any problems at all. It also isn't entirely prevalent in PvE end game raiding either. That doesn't make it any less of an annoyance and shouldn't be updated to reflect universal QoL changes. The second you are out of range of melee attacks you should be able to charge.

It is the same thing with DR. It isn't so much your own that is messing up your damage. It is messing up other peoples, and them messing up yours. You can sit there all day and you are that dam good at the game that you can predict 100% of your own DR hits but it is completely irrelevant to the knockback that is entirely useless and a nuisance.

[Deleted]

DR doesn't knock adds back far enough to remove them from cleave range. I think you are over-inflating the situation to try to make a point. The only time the positioning I was speaking of before really comes into play is when adds are moving around, such as being dragged with Thogar, or running in on the tank. Grips effectively nullify this issue.

There is reason not to remove the charge minimum range, because you could too easily abuse it. Even though Charge no longer generates rage when used against the same target, fights like Maidens could easily fall victim to a constant-charge rotation. The annoyance that you speak of is far too circumstantial to really make it worth changing. I've never really had a problem with it, but perhaps I am simply more cognizant of my positioning.

It's not that your issues don't have merit. They are simply small concerns. I fully agree that Dragon Roar's knock back component is worthless and unnecessary, though I just have never let it negatively affect my performance.

I don't agree with the Charge change though, and that is simply because it would cause more problems than it might potentially fix.

Well it doesn't affect my performance at all, I just don't like to hear people go "stop knocking back the adds please" (ofc that doesn't stop me from using it :P). As I already said, it's not hard to position yourself to use it correctly without losing damage(unless tanks derp and spread adds all around them like a retard, which ours sometimes do), it's just an annoyance, where there need be none. But yes I agree, it's a minor issue.

Hmm, yeah I guess you're right about Charge, I didn't think of a multi target scenario, in which case it would be open to abuse. I mean similar to the DR; it would be nice to have, but it's also a minor thing.

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b2t: charge with no minimum-range would be pretty stupid ... only thing that NEEDS to come back is rage-generation from charge ... they really need to fix the whole rage-shit for arms.

Yeah pretty stupid indeed, because running away from your target so you can charge and get there faster is perfectly logical.

You're on the wrong thread again btw :P

[Sethanor]

no im not ... the rage-gen from charge is as importanf to fury as it is to arms ... we are the only melee that has not a single compensation for downtime.
why i mentioned arms is, cause it was the REASON why the rage-gen got gutted, no one was doing heroic-charge with fury, cause you dont have the same rage issues in your normal rotation.

and yes it is stupid ... i'd rather have something like "if your target cant be rooted or breaks your root then you get x% movement speed for y seconds", now THAT would help esp in raids when the tank is running away, the boss sprinting after him and when you charge, the boss is already half the way to freakin africa!

[sjsctt]

I have been in decent positioned and knocked a straggler ad behind a tank (during Darmac progression, where it mattered). This resulted in the tank's death, due to the high damage in the final phase + general chaos/player deaths. Fact is, it can result in things like this, and is ridiculous. They need to let us glyph it or take out the knockback.