1. #7721
    Potentially they could (again) reduce the relative strength of tank defenses (which would also allow them to reduce boss damage) and push us/keep us further on the "reliant on healers" side of things as well. Interestingly enough, the only two tank specs we have initial looks at are Guardian Druids and Blood DKs. The DK stuff seems to very much amplify what they're more known for (self healing) and I can't say too much about the druid because I know very little. That said, I don't see anything too game changing when it comes to DK at least with it being mostly stat buffs and what not you'd get from the old talent systems.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
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  2. #7722
    A number of the artifact traits I saw looked like they buffed abilities that might not even exist anymore, so I think they are just super super early templates.

    We're like 5 months ahead of any real tank balance


    Not to mention the thing on the front page about a Blink with a 3 second CD. lol Imagine if that sort of thing went live

  3. #7723
    Deleted
    Have they announced how we are going to progress in the Artifact trait tree? And if they have, can someone post the link?

    From what I have seen it seems like most classes are going to depend on the traits to do well rather than it contributing slightly to the overall performance. I hope they are not going to balance the gameplay around it as that would mean we would be in the deficits in regards to our survival and capabilities when starting the game from square one. Our main survival mechanic Ironskin Brew is current set at lvl 28 and purifying at lvl 54, so are we not eligible as tanks until then? Leveling the pre-beta Brewmaster looks like crap as well considered our current toolkit for healing:

    Baseline healing
    Gift of the Ox - RNG (are you shitting me?)
    Effuse
    So we have 2 baseline healing mechanics and 4 active abilities to reduce incoming damage (3x brew & zen meditation).

    Talent healing
    Tier 1: Chi burst, Eye of the Tiger, Chi Wave
    Tier 5: Healing elixir

    You'd think that without resolve we would be given a stronger survival kit for just leveling alone. The traits for the Brewmaster of course has yet been revealed but then again, shouldn't we at least be decent without it? I'd suggest they they either:

    Bake the tier 16 4pc set bonus into baseline Purifying Brew so we have a somewhat controllable healing or
    Make Gift of the Ox generate healing charges (with a limit) we can use at will. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing how the Brewmaster is going to eligible for tanking at all and entirely impossible to use for new people due to the stagger-skill cap required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    We're like 5 months ahead of any real tank balance
    Yes they can always tweak the numbers but shouldn't the core gameplay of a tank be altered as quick as possible? Even if Gift of the Ox gave 100% healing would still make it an unreliable piece of turd self-heal ability. Imo the devs seems to be caught up in this stupid class fantasy BS of BRM being a drunken idiot that stumbles everywhere.

  4. #7724
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksel View Post
    Got soul cap yesterday, is it good for any fights (besides for annoying my co-tank :P) over Blademaster? Combining it with ACP because mastery build.
    Just replace mirror with soul cap for ST fights?

  5. #7725
    Have they announced how we are going to progress in the Artifact trait tree? And if they have, can someone post the link?
    All we've heard is through raiding/world content/dungeon content. I think the point was that you can do almost anything to progress it, but expect different activities to take different amounts of time.

    From what I have seen it seems like most classes are going to depend on the traits to do well rather than it contributing slightly to the overall performance. I hope they are not going to balance the gameplay around it as that would mean we would be in the deficits in regards to our survival and capabilities when starting the game from square one. Our main survival mechanic Ironskin Brew is current set at lvl 28 and purifying at lvl 54, so are we not eligible as tanks until then? Leveling the pre-beta Brewmaster looks like crap as well considered our current toolkit for healing:
    You do realize that purify as it stands now is level 75? We also have more base stagger than its currently looking like in Legion as well meaning purify would be more important then. I'm not super convinced this'll be a huge issue for leveling seeing as prot paladins get Shield of the Righteous at 38, warriors get shield block a little earlier at 18, and guardian druids get Ironfur at 42 but this would only really be an issue if they ever made leveling challenging (particularly low level stuff), but I seriously doubt they will because of how screwy everything below the current expac tends to be every new expansion. I expect just our passive mitigation alone and the little bit you get from 15 talents to be more than enough to cover us in low level dungeons and leveling content early on.

    Baseline healing
    Gift of the Ox - RNG (are you shitting me?)
    Effuse
    So we have 2 baseline healing mechanics and 4 active abilities to reduce incoming damage (3x brew & zen meditation).

    Talent healing
    Tier 1: Chi burst, Eye of the Tiger, Chi Wave
    Tier 5: Healing elixir
    Keeping in mind of course we don't know the artifacts and that you will have some sort of healing via level 15 talents, I think this can work. I say can work in the mindset that we're not going to be incredibly self-sustaining tank nor is that supposed to be our niche really. Death Knights and to a more limited degree Prot Paladins will certainly do this better than us. I'm personally very much against moving us away to being self sustaining but I see the direction they're going and how they tune tank damage at the end of the day will decide how much I dislike it or end up not minding it.

    You'd think that without resolve we would be given a stronger survival kit for just leveling alone. The traits for the Brewmaster of course has yet been revealed but then again, shouldn't we at least be decent without it? I'd suggest they they either:

    Bake the tier 16 4pc set bonus into baseline Purifying Brew so we have a somewhat controllable healing or
    Make Gift of the Ox generate healing charges (with a limit) we can use at will. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing how the Brewmaster is going to eligible for tanking at all and entirely impossible to use for new people due to the stagger-skill cap required.
    To be honest, resolve basically didn't matter in leveling non raid content. Blizzard early in WoD increased baseline healing and made resolve not really start working until you're hit by something of the raid boss sort. I will agree that Gift of the Ox as it stands now has its problems, but if you're tanking in one spot long enough it'll *generally* be effective to some degree anyway and will only be a problem on high movement fights.

    Also, I'm not convinced there'll be a major stagger skill cap. There's a bit in the talents already that will increase how fast we generate charges of brew and it'll probably be pretty obvious on most fights when you NEED to have a charge or two of ironskin brew ready and when you'll want to purify. The skillcap will obviously vary depending on fight mechanics, but having a realatively low (or high) base floor for passive defense means the times you won't need to have it up will be fairly harmless (outside of Mythic or some Heroic encounters of course). This is something that'll play out itself I think.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  6. #7726
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksel View Post
    Got soul cap yesterday, is it good for any fights (besides for annoying my co-tank :P) over Blademaster? Combining it with ACP because mastery build.
    In average soul cap performs lower than blademaster, even on single target(especially without the class trinket), but if you get way more procs than you should(or lucky ones like proc in tod range) it will lead to better results, so if you want a reliable trinket go for blademaster, if you want a 1 time parse trinket go for soul cap

    Same for cleave, but blademaster is just unbeatable for strong aoe

  7. #7727
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    Also, I'm not convinced there'll be a major stagger skill cap. There's a bit in the talents already that will increase how fast we generate charges of brew and it'll probably be pretty obvious on most fights when you NEED to have a charge or two of ironskin brew ready and when you'll want to purify. The skillcap will obviously vary depending on fight mechanics, but having a realatively low (or high) base floor for passive defense means the times you won't need to have it up will be fairly harmless (outside of Mythic or some Heroic encounters of course). This is something that'll play out itself I think.
    And thats where I'm confused, I never had any issue with BRM when we had to deal with shuffle being essential for our survival but that design was changed in WoD which I believed was due to an allegedly "high" skill cap. Imo their new design seems to steer towards the shuffle design again just much more slower paced (IB lasting 6 secs and more effective) and with low passive defense.

    My problem with Gift of the Ox is not necessarily the orb floating around but the control factor of it, not being able to heal when we need it the most and on top of that, adding time-taken to move into an orb and confirming that we actually absorbed it rather than using a spell, seems extremely clunky at best. Then again you make a very valid point of Blizzard moving us away from being highly self-sustainable which I of course find extremely aggravating especially when their precious DK stays in top tier.

  8. #7728
    Having a large AM ability makes it very obvious when you HAVE to have it up. Guard is also somewhat obvious, and when you've got people who literally hit jab when they have the energy regardless of where there keg smash cooldown is, they'll have shuffle problems. It was sort of a trap for newer/less informed players and not even on the radar of better players. In the end, its not *really* that engaging because normal half decent play outside of Chi Explosion (and even then very high uptime isn't hard) was never difficult. I didn't mind it/liked it to some degree because it made you have to be active/not afk as a step to being a better brewmaster, but I can see why it was basically neutered to "nice to have".
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  9. #7729
    Quote Originally Posted by fallenheaven View Post
    Yes they can always tweak the numbers but shouldn't the core gameplay of a tank be altered as quick as possible? Even if Gift of the Ox gave 100% healing would still make it an unreliable piece of turd self-heal ability. Imo the devs seems to be caught up in this stupid class fantasy BS of BRM being a drunken idiot that stumbles everywhere.
    I'm more referring to our armor/stam/base stagger levels. I totally agree that mechanics we aren't happy with, like Gift of the Ox basically being our only heal, are a problem that people need to talk about. Expel Harm absolutely needs to be part of our toolkit, Dizzying Haze needs to not be removed, and then I'm OK with the changes for the most part.

  10. #7730
    If it ends up being fully removed (and its not just in error its not showing up), I'm assuming its to shore up our incredibly broken strength at kiting and even picking up adds efficiently and consistently vs the other tanks. I'm hoping its not gone as its something I've loved since WC 3 (like Breath of Fire).

    I don't think Expel Harm is bad either and I sorta understand why its going away, but at the same time its nice to actually have a heal. Maybe making the GotOx a charge system for expel harm or something. I know self healing isn't our fantasy niche, but its nice to have some reliance on your own healing.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  11. #7731
    Deleted
    I love the concept behind the orb for an agile tank, but it sure is often inconvenient.

    I agree that if taking an orb, or letting it expire, gave a charge of EH, and you can only have one (or two) at once, would be a lot less clunky. You would move to take charge after using some, or when you have time for that.

  12. #7732
    One thing about GOx that people might be forgetting is that the chance of it dropping increases as your health decreases. So if it drops somewhat reliably at low levels of health it might work ok.

    I like the tension in decision making between ib and pb. I think that it is much more meaningful than stacking stagger infinitely. I do agree that a baseline stagger of 6% does sound somewhat risky. It is somewhat interesting how pb will really only be useful when used after taking damage from an ib boosted stagger for a bit. You could burn thru charges quite quickly if you have to pb, which is where the mastery might come into play.

    I was also expecting more from talents. I thought when they said 'hundreds of new talents' that it wouldn't mean just replacing current talents with current abilities. Let's hope they iterate on this a lot.

  13. #7733
    My ideal expel harm rework would be making it have a charge system and every time you would generate a Gift of the Ox orb you gained a charge (you could even set a cap to 2 or 3) and using Expel Harm would generate an orb near you that way you still had the "drunken monk shuffling back and forth" thing going but you'd have more control over it, particularly in heavy movement fights.

    I was also expecting more from talents. I thought when they said 'hundreds of new talents' that it wouldn't mean just replacing current talents with current abilities. Let's hope they iterate on this a lot.
    Certainly a sentiment I share. That said, while I'm not saying give them a free pass on things do be wary its early and things could change.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  14. #7734
    I'd make Expel Harm work similar to Death Strike, heals 50% of the damage taken in the past 6 seconds, plus doing 33% of that heal as damage and having no CD under 35% health like it is on live. It's a great spell, doesn't really need to be changed at all.

  15. #7735
    Deleted
    I'd simply like a talent to give us self heal charges/stacks instead of orbs on the floor (capped at 3 or 4)? Put it in a good competitive row of talents, so it's not an automatic pick, problem solved. (just make Dave baseline again and put it in that row?)

    So the base ability is orbs on the floor, but you can talent into having it as charges/stacks of a self-heal instead. You can either have the self-heal consume all stacks at once (I guess that depending on spawn rate you might want to put a cd on that, since it might become a pretty strong LoH otherwise), or one at a time (on the gcd). However since the orbs spawn at your feet otherwise and you can pick them up whenever, I really think the 'all at once whenever you have stacks' seems quite fair to be honest.

  16. #7736
    Haven't seen it mentioned, but the new heirloom tanking trinket is crazy powerful on demon bossfights (Mannoroth/Archimonde in particular). Short CD, 1 minute, and the absorb will easily eclipse 1M with standard resolve amounts, so it's basically another charge of Guard.

  17. #7737
    It's really not worth a trinket slot when compared to good mythic trinkets. At lower ilvls, dunno.

  18. #7738
    I'd rather have Anzu's and some other flavor of trinket (my mythic BFD, mirror, or WUE if I need the extra tankiness). After playing with 4 piece on Xhul progression on Monday I don't see the need to eat a trinket slot with a weaker guard with a longer cooldown.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  19. #7739
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    I'd rather have Anzu's and some other flavor of trinket (my mythic BFD, mirror, or WUE if I need the extra tankiness). After playing with 4 piece on Xhul progression on Monday I don't see the need to eat a trinket slot with a weaker guard with a longer cooldown.
    I would of used it on Mythic Man on progression, but since I am long past that before it existed yea. I don't think I would of used it anywhere else.

    It's still a good defensive option IMO for people who have yet to get WUE, if they need an extra oomph to secure survival on a certain part of the fight. Like I said I would of found the trinket useful paired with guard to eating glaive combos(if you don't dodge the glaive toss it will entirely eat your guard and you have nothing for MB so always had to double up on CDs for it)

  20. #7740
    Quote Originally Posted by Leblue View Post
    I'd rather have Anzu's and some other flavor of trinket (my mythic BFD, mirror, or WUE if I need the extra tankiness). After playing with 4 piece on Xhul progression on Monday I don't see the need to eat a trinket slot with a weaker guard with a longer cooldown.
    I'm still on Tyrant (just started on it yesterday), but I was thinking the heirloom trink might be good for Manno, to deal with the problem of an un-dodged Glaive Thrust eating through Guard and leaving you shieldless for Massive Blast. Haven't had a chance to check it out of course.

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