[6.0 Guide] Arms - The 10 second master

[Nightstalker]

Why not give every singletarget attack the mastery bonus. So it affects SBolt, Siegebreaker. Talents in generell don't work that well when you have a DPS boost in the same tier as an aoe attack.

Also: Arms needs a huge boost to recklessness. Fury has the enrage bonus and slightly improved rage gain. Arms whitehits don't benefit from recklessness iirc.
And as the origin of all burst CDs (??) it should get major treatment in the future or just trim down these ridiculous CDs of certain other specs that last for up to 30 secs.

[Ferozan]

Because their arms philosophy for arms is few but hard hitting hits. Which is really dumb when you think they gave arms the Mastery Attunement and only 3 skills to boost.
Every time you get a mastery item, your talents become even worse, which is kinda sad.

Thats also why i asked a few pages ago if, with the CS resetting trinket we would use it simply as a new third single target hit instead of worrying about the debuff.
As we get mastery on gear, whirlwind gets more and more "wet noodler" than it already is.

If you check the damages:
Mortal Strike is on 225% wpn damage, affected by mastery on a 20 rage cost (15 cost with 4pT17)
Colossus smash is on 150% wpn damage, also affected by mastery on a 10 rage cost.
Sudden Death Executes deal 135% wpn damage, affected by mastery with no rage cost.
Execute is on 135% wpn damage on 10 rage + 13.5% every 1 additional rage, capping on 540% for 40 rage, affected by mastery.

If we get the Archimonde trinket with the 2pT17, which we probably will be using during progression, we are going to be effectively with Mortal Strike on a 3 seconds CD practically the entire fight. This will boost mastery value even more.
Kinda sad they nerfed the 4pT17 because of execute phases. It would make us generate a lot of rage for dem Executes, which would be awesome. Every special trinket or set bonus they kinda target to make sure our execute phase stays as it is, even though testing needs to be done with the 2pT18 + Taste for Blood for single.

Also, note that Mortal Strike with 4pT17 is going to be more rage efficient than Execute during <20% for controlling rage pre-burst 4 exeqt-in-1-cs with procs and stuff.

Of course, everything above is just thoughts from myself :P

[Deleted]

I do not mind only a few attacks being effected by mastery. But it isn't enough to offset the damage dealt by the abilities that are not effected by it.
(Check ret mastery which nearly effects every ability.)
Cs hits like a noodle no matter what. Only happens every 20 seconds. So in reality mastery only boosts 1 rotational attack.
Sure arms is supposed to feel slow. But if the spec is slow and feels totally unrewarding until the 20% range it kind of counters their own argument.

To fix the talent issues the only thing they can do is to let them scale better with attack power. They aleady do in Arms case. But not enough.

Also indeed. To the argument above. Using reck as fury gives multiple gains. More rage due to enrage procs, more raging blows.
For Arms it just increases your crit chance. Nothing else at all. Not sure if it directly boosts the crit chance of rend/improve rend procs. (which it should.)

And if im honest. I do not really feel the need for reck to become a better cooldown. I wish Cs would allow for more consistant output. It is supposed to be important for the Arms rotation. However only Mortal strike, execute and Siegebreaker seem to make any difference during it. Maybe whirlwind/ slam should get a damage boost to targets effected by cs. Just like the Mop slam did. It was a good way to make you atleast feel you were doing the right thing.

Or simply reduce the cooldown so you get more benefit from the cs damage itself and can more consistently spend your rage rather then wasting a lot of it outside of cs to prevent capping.

[Archimtiros]

I do not mind only a few attacks being effected by mastery. But it isn't enough to offset the damage dealt by the abilities that are not effected by it.
(Check ret mastery which nearly effects every ability.)
Cs hits like a noodle no matter what. Only happens every 20 seconds. So in reality mastery only boosts 1 rotational attack.
Sure arms is supposed to feel slow. But if the spec is slow and feels totally unrewarding until the 20% range it kind of counters their own argument.

To fix the talent issues the only thing they can do is to let them scale better with attack power. They aleady do in Arms case. But not enough.

Also indeed. To the argument above. Using reck as fury gives multiple gains. More rage due to enrage procs, more raging blows.
For Arms it just increases your crit chance. Nothing else at all. Not sure if it directly boosts the crit chance of rend/improve rend procs. (which it should.)

And if im honest. I do not really feel the need for reck to become a better cooldown. I wish Cs would allow for more consistant output. It is supposed to be important for the Arms rotation. However only Mortal strike, execute and Siegebreaker seem to make any difference during it. Maybe whirlwind/ slam should get a damage boost to targets effected by cs. Just like the Mop slam did. It was a good way to make you atleast feel you were doing the right thing.

Or simply reduce the cooldown so you get more benefit from the cs damage itself and can more consistently spend your rage rather then wasting a lot of it outside of cs to prevent capping.

Well CS used to hit like a truck, as did Arms in general. Then when they realized Arms was 2 shotting people they decided it needed a nerf and instead of lowering MS and Execute damage, they lowered CS, which does make sense as CS is primarily there to buff other attacks, not deal damage on its own.

Reck is a poor cooldown and it always has been. All it does is give you a chance for extra damage, it might work out, it might not.

The problem with Arms is one we correctly deduced back in Beta. The idea of "slow heavy hits" is flawed, it just doesn't work very well in a game driven by short GCDs. It isn't even about the damage the abilities do, it's about how they're used. There are plenty of rotations that have one super powered attack (Shadow Priests Dev Plague, Chaos Bolt), but they are still engaged in hitting buttons the rest of the time while Arms isn't. This creates a whole host of other issues as well, such as underwhelming talents and near worthless "filler" attacks.

The second issue is that when you funnel all of a specs damage into a handful of attacks it just makes it bursty, and bursty damage has always been a problem in this game, mainly in PvP but in PvE as well. It would work better in a game like Diablo where you balance damage potential around survivability and only loosely classes against eachother, but it just doesn't work out to well here.

[Artunias]

Well CS used to hit like a truck, as did Arms in general. Then when they realized Arms was 2 shotting people they decided it needed a nerf and instead of lowering MS and Execute damage, they lowered CS, which does make sense as CS is primarily there to buff other attacks, not deal damage on its own.

Reck is a poor cooldown and it always has been. All it does is give you a chance for extra damage, it might work out, it might not.

The problem with Arms is one we correctly deduced back in Beta. The idea of "slow heavy hits" is flawed, it just doesn't work very well in a game driven by short GCDs. It isn't even about the damage the abilities do, it's about how they're used. There are plenty of rotations that have one super powered attack (Shadow Priests Dev Plague, Chaos Bolt), but they are still engaged in hitting buttons the rest of the time while Arms isn't. This creates a whole host of other issues as well, such as underwhelming talents and near worthless "filler" attacks.

The second issue is that when you funnel all of a specs damage into a handful of attacks it just makes it bursty, and bursty damage has always been a problem in this game, mainly in PvP but in PvE as well. It would work better in a game like Diablo where you balance damage potential around survivability and only loosely classes against eachother, but it just doesn't work out to well here.

In relation to Dev Plauge/Chaos Bolt. That was basically what the first new beta arms idea looked like with executioner and building up to executes. It's still my greatest regret that they didn't go with that and give it testing time to tweak as I feel like it had a lot of potential. At least far moreso than what we ended up with.

[Deleted]

Well CS used to hit like a truck, as did Arms in general. Then when they realized Arms was 2 shotting people they decided it needed a nerf and instead of lowering MS and Execute damage, they lowered CS, which does make sense as CS is primarily there to buff other attacks, not deal damage on its own.

Reck is a poor cooldown and it always has been. All it does is give you a chance for extra damage, it might work out, it might not.

The problem with Arms is one we correctly deduced back in Beta. The idea of "slow heavy hits" is flawed, it just doesn't work very well in a game driven by short GCDs. It isn't even about the damage the abilities do, it's about how they're used. There are plenty of rotations that have one super powered attack (Shadow Priests Dev Plague, Chaos Bolt), but they are still engaged in hitting buttons the rest of the time while Arms isn't. This creates a whole host of other issues as well, such as underwhelming talents and near worthless "filler" attacks.

The second issue is that when you funnel all of a specs damage into a handful of attacks it just makes it bursty, and bursty damage has always been a problem in this game, mainly in PvP but in PvE as well. It would work better in a game like Diablo where you balance damage potential around survivability and only loosely classes against eachother, but it just doesn't work out to well here.

It is true. But changing stuff like giving cs a shorter cooldown or buffing mortal strike slightly isn't really going to change arms into a burst fest class. Most burst concerns are usually comming out of cooldowns (recklessness) or high damaging procs that can chain with some luck (sudden death).

In a game where you have a short global cooldown and want to be more active during the wait. They can fix it with abilities that do not directly deal damage but instead boost your next/ certain abilities. A good example is Unleash elements of shaman. It doesn't deal any damage but it is still a part of the rotation you want to keep up. Another thing it does is that it makes the player feel they are charging up for this big smash rather then twiddle their fingers.

They could have implemented a filler that would cost rage and gave a self buff in any way possible. From increasing the damage or crit chance to the next mortal strike or just simply increase the next few auto attacks to shorten the cooldown of collossus smash with every time you use the filler.

[Enyasi]

What if Arms rotation worked around 2 sec GCD? I know this sound silly, but if they want to go with the slow but heavy hits, slowing down our GCD should work better than having 40%+ waiting time. Too many classes are playing in a faster way (I like it, too), so Arms phillosophy do not work in this scenario.

[nativity]

What if Arms rotation worked around 2 sec GCD? I know this sound silly, but if they want to go with the slow but heavy hits, slowing down our GCD should work better than having 40%+ waiting time. Too many classes are playing in a faster way (I like it, too), so Arms phillosophy do not work in this scenario.

My guess is it may end up worse than what is currently in live now unless some skills are off GCD , more depth in procs and a more stable rage generator.

[Enyasi]

Maybe, maybe not. There wouldn't be as many empity GCD as now, that's for sure.

[nativity]

Maybe, maybe not. There wouldn't be as many empity GCD as now, that's for sure.

Misread your question .. will need a rage generator attack like BT other than auto attack else you may end up rage starved.

[Enyasi]

No prob. Maybe I did wrote it wrong. The class would be balanced around the 2sec GCD (this mean rage generation and spend), so this concept would stay (as Blizzard is adamant to live with it). I don't like live Arms, however, I find the philosophy a good one to follow. They just didn't made it good.

[Archimtiros]

In relation to Dev Plauge/Chaos Bolt. That was basically what the first new beta arms idea looked like with executioner and building up to executes. It's still my greatest regret that they didn't go with that and give it testing time to tweak as I feel like it had a lot of potential. At least far moreso than what we ended up with.

That was alpha, not beta; but it changed considerably since then. However, I agree, that iteration of arms was much better.

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Maybe, maybe not. There wouldn't be as many empity GCD as now, that's for sure.

That doesn't really change anything though, the APM doesn't differ, it just misleads you into thinking it's more active than it really is.

All that aside, it wouldn't change much anyways, your only lengthening the GCD by half a second, when the general wait time between abilities is longer than that anyways, you'd still skip GCDs.

It has to do with the way Arms is built more than anything else, all spenders with only AA for generation, but generation only occurs every ~3.3s. For the record, it's fine to skip GCDs, when it's for a reason. Limiting player resources so that they have to skip though, isn't fun or engaging, it's just annoying. Give a person a reason to skip GCDs and they'll happily do so, limit the player and they just feel as if they should be doing something, only can't.

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It is true. But changing stuff like giving cs a shorter cooldown or buffing mortal strike slightly isn't really going to change arms into a burst fest class. Most burst concerns are usually comming out of cooldowns (recklessness) or high damaging procs that can chain with some luck (sudden death).

In a game where you have a short global cooldown and want to be more active during the wait. They can fix it with abilities that do not directly deal damage but instead boost your next/ certain abilities. A good example is Unleash elements of shaman. It doesn't deal any damage but it is still a part of the rotation you want to keep up. Another thing it does is that it makes the player feel they are charging up for this big smash rather then twiddle their fingers.

They could have implemented a filler that would cost rage and gave a self buff in any way possible. From increasing the damage or crit chance to the next mortal strike or just simply increase the next few auto attacks to shorten the cooldown of collossus smash with every time you use the filler.

Well yeah thats the basis of any rotation that interacts and builds on itself. Unfortunately arms doesn't really have much in that department, it's just a bunch of standalone attacks.

[nativity]

That was alpha, not beta; but it changed considerably since then. However, I agree, that iteration of arms was much better.

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That doesn't really change anything though, the APM doesn't differ, it just misleads you into thinking it's more active than it really is.

All that aside, it wouldn't change much anyways, your only lengthening the GCD by half a second, when the general wait time between abilities is longer than that anyways, you'd still skip GCDs.

It has to do with the way Arms is built more than anything else, all spenders with only AA for generation, but generation only occurs every ~3.3s. For the record, it's fine to skip GCDs, when it's for a reason. Limiting player resources so that they have to skip though, isn't fun or engaging, it's just annoying. Give a person a reason to skip GCDs and they'll happily do so, limit the player and they just feel as if they should be doing something, only can't.

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Well yeah thats the basis of any rotation that interacts and builds on itself. Unfortunately arms doesn't really have much in that department, it's just a bunch of standalone attacks.

We should have some more depth in procs and interactivity in 6.2 with T18 + class trink right ?

[Archimtiros]

We should have some more depth in procs and interactivity in 6.2 with T18 + class trink right ?

In a manner of speaking yes, but it does dumb down the rotation even further. Its an improvement but I'm not quite sure it's the right kind we need.

[nativity]

In a manner of speaking yes, but it does dumb down the rotation even further. Its an improvement but I'm not quite sure it's the right kind we need.

Dumb down the rotation in the sense that TFB becomes almost mandatory over SD to avoid the possibly of more frequent rage starved due to procs ?

[Archimtiros]

Dumb down the rotation in the sense that TFB becomes almost mandatory over SD to avoid the possibly of more frequent rage starved due to procs ?

In the sense that you spend most of your time using Colossus Smash and Mortal Strike due to frequent resets.

[Ferozan]

With 4PT18 and Archimonde trinket, the resets on Mortal Strike and Colossus Smash are going to be so frequent that you probably wont be worrying about CS debuff.
Assuming a 3.6 weapon speed +- 10% haste, which goes to something like 3.3 speed and rend ticking on 3 seconds period (2.3 second period with 4p)

With no math to back up but speculation thoughts, the priority would be MS(with CS debuff) > CS(without debuff) > CS(with debuff) > MS(without debuff) > Whirlwind/TClap (if you have rage to spare)

Simply because of the strength comparison of MS and Whirlwind, you wouldn't bother to whirlwind on CS if u have a chance to get a MS reset on top of that global.
Whirlwind would only be used to avoid rage capping.

That also brings down another question that i didn´t have time to test. Does the 4p Rend increased tick frequency affect Taste for Blood rage generation?
Combining the 30% increased rage gen from taste for blood and the reset nature of both MS and CS, Sudden Death is going to lose its value against TfB.
Slam is going to be even more of a joke than it already is.

One strange behavior though is that CS has a better damage per rage than Execute sub-20%.
CS has a 150% weapon damage * Mastery Modifier / 10 rage efficiency = 15%wpn*MM/rage
Exe has a 540% weapon damage * Mastery Modifier / 40 rage efficiency = 13.5%wpn*MM/rage

Also, if we stop using the mastery trinket and go for something like the Cleave + Archimonde setup, when we get our Legendary Ring (which has no proc, only the use), our Execute phase will not need pooling because of CS resets and no procs, which is kinda sad.
The only things we gotta pay attention now on sub-20% phases is keeping rend up, saving rage for unloading executes on CS(with or without procs, depending on the situation) and avoiding rage cap.

A 10 rage execute has the same efficiency as a 40 rage. We try to unload 4 40 rage executes on a CS to maximize proc usage.
Without procs, the rotation would simply use execute on CS while CS is on cd, no matter how much rage you've got.

Didn't even talk about 2-3 target fights. We are going to be swimming in rage with T18 and TfB + MS Resets and Sweeping Strikes Executes are going to be stronger than they already are.

[Artunias]

Unless you have 3 targets to keep rend on I'm not sure I'm convinced any of this really changes execute phase that much. Outside of pooling for the big CS, I get maybe one to three executes off at best waiting for CS to come back up because you just don't have the rage generation to support chaining off a 40 rage ability.

Add on to that when we lose T17 that CS also goes back to costing rage, I just see us being really rage starved. I haven't played with it on the ptr though, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Archimtiros]

Unless you have 3 targets to keep rend on I'm not sure I'm convinced any of this really changes execute phase that much. Outside of pooling for the big CS, I get maybe one to three executes off at best waiting for CS to come back up because you just don't have the rage generation to support chaining off a 40 rage ability.

Add on to that when we lose T17 that CS also goes back to costing rage, I just see us being really rage starved. I haven't played with it on the ptr though, so maybe I'm wrong.

It doesn't do anything to the Execute phase really, except reinforce rage pooling before CS as you won't have to wait a full 14s until the debuff is available again. Just pool rage and only spend to keep from capping.

[Slaman]

I've seen so many gloss-overs about arms stat weights, and the only semi-helpful thing I've gotten is from Sarri a few months ago in the finalboss interview, where he blazed through the stat weights for single, two-target, and 3 target. Were those right? Are they still right? Does anyone have a rough outline of what you should aim for in each situation? I'd like to play arms on at least H&F, Maidens, and Blast Furnace mythic and I'd like to have a set to see what I can do on fights like Gruul and Darmac. What I have written down from Sarri's interview is that for ST, aim for Mastery > Multi > Crit > Vers > Haste. For 2T, Crit > Haste > Multi > Vers > Mast. For 3T, Multi > Haste > Vers > Crit > Mastery.

So if I've got The Black Hand, Flamebender's Blade, and a Crescent of Living Magma, it seems The Black Hand really isn't the best for anything even though we always say Crit/Mastery are what we want.