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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by ProvokeProt View Post
    It reminds me of the available elixirs. Not sure if it was already mentioned but this and this are a VERY strong combination.

  2. #222
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ProvokeProt View Post
    I have just completed some basic math concerning stat weights. The results of switching from my current full crit build to a full mastery build would be: -6% crit, +5% haste, +19% mastery as well as -65 attack power. This pretty much speaks for itself as well as what the thread has been saying - go for crit for more damage, for TMI go mastery, the difference isn't very big damage wise, but survival wise it is.

    Personally, I will be doing a few fights with each and logging to draw my own conclusions.
    I dont understand this logic: If the difference is big survival wise why would you go for a crit build with a "low difference" in damage output?

    Am i misunderstanding this statement or did you just recommend to go for the worse build? (lose survivability, gain small damage increase)

    Or is this all because Mythic SoO is currently a joke?

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by PaCoz View Post

    Am i misunderstanding this statement or did you just recommend to go for the worse build? (lose survivability, gain small damage increase)
    He said to use one for damage and the other for survivability. What are you not getting?

  4. #224
    Why don't import and sim. using critic/mastery and made your own decision.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    He said to use one for damage and the other for survivability. What are you not getting?
    Well I mean he does make a decent point I think - there is a question of whether or not a marginal dps increase is worth a fairly steep loss in survivability in general. But having tanked the current tier in 6.0, the crit build is definitely the way to go. It's more fun and mastery isn't necessary.

  6. #226
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaflare View Post
    Well I mean he does make a decent point I think - there is a question of whether or not a marginal dps increase is worth a fairly steep loss in survivability in general.
    I honestly don't see a difference between crit / mastery or riposte / mastery.
    I dont see this steep loss in survivability either tho.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    I honestly don't see a difference between crit / mastery or riposte / mastery.
    I dont see this steep loss in survivability either tho.
    It'll probably be more noticeable as we progress through WOD. Right now everything at current tier makes a shit barometer for how you'll perform in the future. It's really going to come down to personal preference affected by raid comp/skill. You're far better off testing your own builds and seeing how they perform in relation to your healers and dps instead of attempting to sim things out. Not saying sims aren't a helpful tool, just saying they aren't all that helpful right now. Dps is a science, tanking is half art, half science, healing is a full on art.

  8. #228
    Anyone know where you can see the hidden passives for prot? I know wowhead has a hidden aura filter but its not class specific. I wish someone just made an addon to show them TT
    Last edited by Bizerk; 2014-10-25 at 10:53 PM.

  9. #229
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    It'll probably be more noticeable as we progress through WOD. Right now everything at current tier makes a shit barometer for how you'll perform in the future. It's really going to come down to personal preference affected by raid comp/skill. You're far better off testing your own builds and seeing how they perform in relation to your healers and dps instead of attempting to sim things out. Not saying sims aren't a helpful tool, just saying they aren't all that helpful right now. Dps is a science, tanking is half art, half science, healing is a full on art.
    I fully agree on all your points, but I wasn't basing it off either SoO or sims.
    My first point was in relation to the dps/survivability trade off entering 5.4, how much in either way is too much ?
    Where do the community as a whole draw the line, far as general guidelines go 5%, 10%, 20% ?
    I feel the scenario will play out fairly equal as 5.4.

    Regarding the 2nd point, with the healing/tank changes coupled with reforge gone, limited amount of sockets and mastery buff, we'll never sit at 0 mastery and we won't be able to achieve such extremes in gearing as we currently do.
    Adding the direction blizzard seem to be taking the game, I don't think we'll see mastery/crit be that far off tuning wise either.

    And just as we do now, we'll gear for the progression at hand. If "lei shi", mastery won't do much good. If "tortos", you might stack mastery.

    I'll probably get scolded for saying this but I rarely use sims to look at the tank defensive part (for lack of better collective word).
    Don't get me wrong, its a fantastic tool for many aspects but the "art" part is easier to figure out ingame.

    I don't think any serious tank, not even Eddy(sry bro ) intentionally gimps their raid to achieve dps on progress, unless the tactic calls for it.

    Just as you say everyone should gear for their raid comp/skill.
    At least thats my guess for now, blizz could change it up overnight.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-10-26 at 01:25 AM.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    I fully agree on all your points, but I wasn't basing it off either SoO or sims.
    My first point was in relation to the dps/survivability trade off entering 5.4, how much in either way is too much ?
    Where do the community as a whole draw the line, far as general guidelines go 5%, 10%, 20% ?
    I feel the scenario will play out fairly equal as 5.4.
    I personally draw the line at the difference between stacking pure parry in 5.4 and going crit build. Crit put out more dps but the drawbacks were too much to justify the gains in my opinion. In same vein, as I said before, I don't think currently going a crit build is a detriment to survivability(to any noticeable degree) and thus the gain in damage is worth it. Assuming I understood what you were asking, that is.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaflare View Post
    I personally draw the line at the difference between stacking pure parry in 5.4 and going crit build. Crit put out more dps but the drawbacks were too much to justify the gains in my opinion. In same vein, as I said before, I don't think currently going a crit build is a detriment to survivability(to any noticeable degree) and thus the gain in damage is worth it. Assuming I understood what you were asking, that is.
    I made a simple rule in 5.4 of stacking parry/dodge until Parry starting hitting DR (iirc around 42-43%). Then I would stack Mastery and Crit. I ended up with around 48% mastery, 14.5% dodge, 43% parry and 8.5% crit.
    Right now, the only thing holding back a crit build from being by far the best is the reduced efficacy of Barrier weaving, brought about by the horrendous single-target Resolve DRs. Crit still comes out over Mastery, but it would be very different (and better for every tank) if the Resolve DRs were gone. #NeverGiveUp

  12. #232
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaflare View Post
    Assuming I understood what you were asking, that is.
    Edited a few times and just looked weird without question marks
    Was just a buildup to "I feel the scenario.." and to show most of us are already in the mindset where small differences favour dps.

    The crit build was a marginal crit increase for a big loss in avoidance, at least when it mattered.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-10-26 at 10:28 PM.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Edited a few times and just looked weird without question marks
    Was just a buildup to "I feel the scenario.." and to show most of us are already in the mindset where small differences favour dps.

    The crit build was a marginal crit increase for a big loss in avoidance, at least when it mattered.
    Fair enough, I do agree with that sentiment. The only time I can think of where that would not be a true is a fight that vastly favors survivability over damage (Something like ToGC25 Anub, perhaps less extreme than 102% block though). And that sort of scenario is sort of obvious, anyway.

  14. #234
    Am I the only one who feels that out of all the tanks in the game, the warrior gets shafted the most with the resolve changes? Since we don't have really any healing abilities besides ER and shield barrier for the absorption, Warriors suffer massively with the new resolve mechanic. I think a new healing shout or some shit like the rogues recoup could be helpful and benefit from resolve. Other than that we get fucked.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremeties View Post
    Am I the only one who feels that out of all the tanks in the game, the warrior gets shafted the most with the resolve changes? Since we don't have really any healing abilities besides ER and shield barrier for the absorption, Warriors suffer massively with the new resolve mechanic. I think a new healing shout or some shit like the rogues recoup could be helpful and benefit from resolve. Other than that we get fucked.
    You might not be the only one but you are probably wrong. Prot Warriors are fine in Mythic raiding. The only place they struggle is in small groups like challenge modes. This has nothing to do with scaling or balance. It is just a fact of life that the smaller the group the more important self healing is.
    Last edited by Gliff; 2014-10-27 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Original wording sounded way douchey.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    You might not be the only one but you are probably wrong. Prot Warriors are fine in Mythic raiding. The only place they struggle is in small groups like challenge modes. This has nothing to do with scaling or balance. It is just a fact of life that the smaller the group the more important self healing is.
    I'm mainly talking about comparing abilities by abilities of all other tanks. The 4 other tanks benefit from resolve in many ways because of healing capabilities. Warriors do not because of That lack of feature which is healing abilities. We have ER and that's it. I won't even consider barrier because that things piss poor right now. Right now warriors focus on keeping shield block up which while nice won't make a difference between living and dieing. I can't count how many times my other tanks have helped take stress off healers in a raid because of timing some healing abilities with resolve. I cannot say the same thing for my warrior. Warriors currently have it the worst right now in terms of the new mechanic change from vengeance to resolve. It would benefit us to get a recoup ability like rogues have which could drastically help with the resolve feature.

    Of course its just my opinion but I do play all 5 tanks and in my opinion, warriors suffer the greatest with resolve.

  17. #237
    Anyone else think the T16 2pc should be baseline? Or something similar? Small self healing from block/barrier would be cool.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremeties View Post
    I'm mainly talking about comparing abilities by abilities of all other tanks. The 4 other tanks benefit from resolve in many ways because of healing capabilities. Warriors do not because of That lack of feature which is healing abilities. We have ER and that's it. I won't even consider barrier because that things piss poor right now. Right now warriors focus on keeping shield block up which while nice won't make a difference between living and dieing. I can't count how many times my other tanks have helped take stress off healers in a raid because of timing some healing abilities with resolve. I cannot say the same thing for my warrior. Warriors currently have it the worst right now in terms of the new mechanic change from vengeance to resolve. It would benefit us to get a recoup ability like rogues have which could drastically help with the resolve feature.

    Of course its just my opinion but I do play all 5 tanks and in my opinion, warriors suffer the greatest with resolve.
    What change are you talking about?

    Warriors benefit from Resolve the least, that is true, but that was the case with Vengeance also in terms of how many abilities get effected by it.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    What change are you talking about?

    Warriors benefit from Resolve the least, that is true, but that was the case with Vengeance also in terms of how many abilities get effected by it.
    What change? It's pretty self explanatory and it was a massive change. They changed the tank passive mechanic that scaled DMG(vengeance) to scaled healing(Resolve). Two entirely different spectrums. There's a lot more dmg dealing abilities in the warriors arsenal then there is healing. So the change from vengeance to resolve is a double screw job to warriors. We lost dmg and we get screwed from resolve cause we have no healing abilities like the other tanks do. We have 1 on a 1 min cd and its not anything special.

  20. #240
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaflare View Post
    Fair enough, I do agree with that sentiment. The only time I can think of where that would not be a true is a fight that vastly favors survivability over damage (Something like ToGC25 Anub, perhaps less extreme than 102% block though). And that sort of scenario is sort of obvious, anyway.
    Yup but that goes back to what i also wrote in the post:
    "And just as we do now, we'll gear for the progression at hand. If "lei shi", mastery won't do much good. If "tortos", you might stack mastery."

    Maybe its assumption on my part but something i also touched on above, which I take for granted, that all tanks focus on their role as a priority.
    Simply put, always focus on staying alive, minimizing damage, optimal cd usage, positioning, awareness, anticipation etc etc.

    Most of are already past that step and the "only" thing left is focusing on dps. With no encounters to discuss, everything is about dps for me atm.

    Don't mean you personally Nova, just a general statement

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Extremeties View Post
    We lost dmg and we get screwed from resolve cause we have no healing abilities like the other tanks do. We have 1 on a 1 min cd and its not anything special.
    Correct me im wrong here but technically the only "dps loss" from the vengeance change was that RC TC lost its AP scaling and thus its spot as a filler ?
    But all tanks got affected equally from the loss of vengeance, now its just a tuning matter between the tanks ?

    We don't have much selfhealing but i can't remember a single time where i've gone, damn, if only i had some more selfheal to save me. LS+ER(+HS) is a pretty damn strong panic button imo. Don't forget the classes with most selfhealing is also designed to take the most damage (to heal it up).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Anyone else think the T16 2pc should be baseline? Or something similar? Small self healing from block/barrier would be cool.
    Yes or tweaking our current talents would also be enough for me.
    Upping ER back to 20/20% or 10/30% and tweaking 2nd wind(prot specific) to provide its leech above 60-70% hp instead of 35%.
    Or removing IV from gcd and making a VR proc not reset cd.
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2014-10-27 at 07:49 PM.

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