[6.0 Guide] Protection - "We still have heroic strike, don't be jealous"

[Toroq]

I did a lot of work on the beta a long time back regarding Anger Management's viability as a defensive tool over Gladiator's Resolve (FYI, the answer was no, at least for this tier), but with the decrease in Avatar cooldown, I'm beginning to wonder if Anger Management coupled with Avatar will yield high DPS versus something like Ravager on single target (granted, those fights are few and far between in Foundry).

Are we sure that Avatar will be the default choice for prot, though? Unless I'm missing something big I don't see why we would pick it over Bloodbath by default.
Avatar would have to be significantly better than BB to make AM worthwhile as well, otherwise we would probably already be running BB + AM right now, no?

[Charble]

Are we sure that Avatar will be the default choice for prot, though? Unless I'm missing something big I don't see why we would pick it over Bloodbath by default.
Avatar would have to be significantly better than BB to make AM worthwhile as well, otherwise we would probably already be running BB + AM right now, no?

On single target, Avatar is already better for fights like Butcher, and in 6.1, it will have a 90-second CD. With decent RPS, it is feasible to be seeing a 75 second-CD Avatar at some point in BRF. Anger Management seems viable for fights like Blast Furnace and Thogar for utility alone (Shockwave/Heroic Leap timers, mostly), or it was at least during my Beta testing experience. On shorter fights with lower numbers of targets, the I'm wondering if the new Avatar might beat out Bloodbath (a relatively easy sim) even without Anger Management (a not-so-easy sim).
My Anger Management spreadsheet was on my other computer, but if I recall correctly, Anger Management starts becoming decent defensively around 12 RPS (albeit in a much different way from Gladiator's Resolve). Of course, RPS will not reach sufficient levels this tier to beat out Gladiator's Resolve defensively in most situations this tier.

[booi]

On single target, Avatar is already better for fights like Butcher, and in 6.1, it will have a 90-second CD. With decent RPS, it is feasible to be seeing a 75 second-CD Avatar at some point in BRF. Anger Management seems viable for fights like Blast Furnace and Thogar for utility alone (Shockwave/Heroic Leap timers, mostly), or it was at least during my Beta testing experience. On shorter fights with lower numbers of targets, the I'm wondering if the new Avatar might beat out Bloodbath (a relatively easy sim) even without Anger Management (a not-so-easy sim).
My Anger Management spreadsheet was on my other computer, but if I recall correctly, Anger Management starts becoming decent defensively around 12 RPS (albeit in a much different way from Gladiator's Resolve). Of course, RPS will not reach sufficient levels this tier to beat out Gladiator's Resolve defensively in most situations this tier.

Haven't tested, but was reading somewhere that anger management uses base rage cost in its calculation. So if you heroic strike from an ultimatum proc or a six stack of unyielding it counts as 30 rage spent. So you're effective rps spent could likely be much higher than 12.

[Toroq]

Haven't tested, but was reading somewhere that anger management uses base rage cost in its calculation. So if you heroic strike from an ultimatum proc or a six stack of unyielding it counts as 30 rage spent. So you're effective rps spent could likely be much higher than 12.

Doing some quick testing on a dummy in my Garrison and as far as I can tell, using Execute or HS with SD or US (even at 6 stacks) respectively treats them as spending 30 rage, but using HS with an Ultimatum proc treats it as spending 0 rage.

So AM might potentially gain value if you're specced US and thus using HS a lot? Although US is mainly a talent you would use on cleave/AoE where Ravager also gains value.

[EricN]

Can we begin a discussion regarding Tier 17 bonuses? How good do you guys think it will be? Also, will the 2p make Heavy Reps viable and commonly used? Does the effect cast AS shield slam is casted, thus increasing damage because "block" is up? Also, is there any offensive element to our 4p?

[Charble]

Haven't tested, but was reading somewhere that anger management uses base rage cost in its calculation. So if you heroic strike from an ultimatum proc or a six stack of unyielding it counts as 30 rage spent. So you're effective rps spent could likely be much higher than 12.

So AM might potentially gain value if you're specced US and thus using HS a lot?

This is too juicy. This could potentially make Anger Management very viable defensively when you want a split between AoE damage but something (cumulatively) stronger defensively than Ravager. If we get to 15 RPS, we're in the money, even defensively.

Here is my spreadsheet from a while ago, now relevant again; feel free to fiddle with it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

This could make for the dirtiest, slimiest, button-mashiest protection build ever, and I am excited.

[Deleted]

I tried to compare Bloodbath and Avatar for a bit and ended up writing a needlessly long post with no clear conclusion. I'm gonna post it anyway for the sake of discussion.

6.1 Avatar would have a 22,22%(repeating, of course) uptime of 20% more damage, compared to BB's 20% uptime of 30% more damage.
Overall Avatar would provide then provide 0,2*0,2222 = 0,04444 = 4,444% more damage.
And Bloodbath is 0,3*0,2 = 0,06 = 6% more damage.
This is, of course, in a complete vacuum where the timing of the damage increases, fight duration, or boss mechanics don't matter.

If any of my shitty napkin math is wrong, feel free to call me an idiot and correct me.

One immediate thing of note is that Avatar affects all damage, while bloodbath does not. In particular, bloodbath does not boost auto attack or deep wounds. On single target (checking my butcher logs) that equates to ~23% of my damage, so instead of a 6% damage increase it is only a 4.62% increase. For sustained aoe situations where the majority of our damage is deep wounds, avatar is a vastly superior choice to bloodbath. For burst AoE, bloodbath would pull ahead combined with bladestorm if we need the burst every 1min *and* if the mob live long enough for the full bloodbath bleed to tick (if it's every 1.5min or more, avatar wins..). For single target, bloodbath is a bit ahead and probably gains even more since the 1min cd lines up nicely with dragon roar and probably on-use trinkets (which are often 2min.. but sometimes 1.5min in which case avatar would be best..) etc..

Personally I expect to prefer Avatar of the two, for the vast majority of fights anyway.

[Toroq]

One immediate thing of note is that Avatar affects all damage, while bloodbath does not. In particular, bloodbath does not boost auto attack or deep wounds. On single target (checking my butcher logs) that equates to ~23% of my damage, so instead of a 6% damage increase it is only a 4.62% increase. For sustained aoe situations where the majority of our damage is deep wounds, avatar is a vastly superior choice to bloodbath. For burst AoE, bloodbath would pull ahead combined with bladestorm if we need the burst every 1min *and* if the mob live long enough for the full bloodbath bleed to tick (if it's every 1.5min or more, avatar wins..). For single target, bloodbath is a bit ahead and probably gains even more since the 1min cd lines up nicely with dragon roar and probably on-use trinkets (which are often 2min.. but sometimes 1.5min in which case avatar would be best..) etc..

Personally I expect to prefer Avatar of the two, for the vast majority of fights anyway.

Good point, I often forget that Bloodbath is strictly limited to abilities. I also completely neglected to mention DR/BS and only mentioned Ravager. Whoops.

I haven't actually done any BRF testing, but do any encounters in there fit the "Burst AoE with mobs that live long enough for BB" criteria?

Gruul, Oregorger and Kromog seem like three encounters I would definitely use BB on, unless one of them is a short DPS race on mythic.

Darmac, Thogar and Blast Furance seem like they would be Avatar fights due to lots of (constant) AoE. Ka'graz and Iron Maidens also seem like good Avatar fights.

Hans & Franz I'm not sure about, and Blackhand seems like he would be good for Bloodbath, due to being a long (mostly) single target fight.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

SIMSTUFF

I can't run a sim that doesn't value Crit over Mastery in the same manner. But I know that I had been previously. What I did is look back at some of the lower gear level sims right on the simcraft front page and you'll find at lower gear ilvl's that mastery overtakes crit for TMI, closer to 630. Definitely worth looking more into this though. At 695 I'm seeing Crit and Mastery are equal for TMI.

[Zipetor]

I can't run a sim that doesn't value Crit over Mastery in the same manner. But I know that I had been previously. What I did is look back at some of the lower gear level sims right on the simcraft front page and you'll find at lower gear ilvl's that mastery overtakes crit for TMI, closer to 630. Definitely worth looking more into this though. At 695 I'm seeing Crit and Mastery are equal for TMI.

I just reran the sims of the T17M Warrior(ilvl 695) and I see Crit about 9% better than Mastery for TMI alone - not sure what sims you are running that show them as equal, but I can't reproduce it. If you can dig up sims of Mastery being better at lower gear levels that would be interesting.

[jinsu]

does anyone have pawn string for prot warrior?

[Cyclonus-WOW]

@Zipetor
I visit simulationcraft.org and expand their sim depending on ilvl, go down to prot warrior, expand that and copy the profile.
Then i import it in a new tab in simcraft.
Reset all settings in Simcraft
Then just sim with scaling enabled for all stats.
Here is the sim: https://www.dropbox.com/s/46eekagrvd...ghts.html?dl=0

[booi]

I just reran the sims of the T17M Warrior(ilvl 695) and I see Crit about 9% better than Mastery for TMI alone - not sure what sims you are running that show them as equal, but I can't reproduce it. If you can dig up sims of Mastery being better at lower gear levels that would be interesting.

This is because we only end up with 50% uptime on shield block. On any boss swap fight the stats should become closer.

You can emulate this by overriding the spell duration for shield block (set to 12 seconds), and then removing barrier from the apl.

[Zipetor]

@Zipetor
I visit simulationcraft.org and expand their sim depending on ilvl, go down to prot warrior, expand that and copy the profile.
Then i import it in a new tab in simcraft.
Reset all settings in Simcraft
Then just sim with scaling enabled for all stats.
Here is the sim: https://www.dropbox.com/s/46eekagrvd...ghts.html?dl=0

Those are not against standard TMI bosses - the attack profile of the fluffy pillow boss is really odd (80-90% of the time not doing anything?!?). I don't think that in any way approximates standard fights.

booi: Yes, I agree that in cases where you swap quickly (~18 seconds), mastery will look a lot better. I did some two tank simulations earlier in this thread which demonstrate that. However, this is relatively rare (Imperator and maybe Koragh) in Highmaul.

[booi]

This is because we only end up with 50% uptime on shield block. On any boss swap fight the stats should become closer.

You can emulate this by overriding the spell duration for shield block (set to 12 seconds), and then removing barrier from the apl.

the string you would need is:

override.spell_data=spell.132404.duration=12000

but it basically butchers any rage considerations for the log (like don't dump all your imaginary rage into heroic strike. we can't override rage costs in simC.

[Argeln]

Hiya!

Can anyone help me analyze these logs in what I can improve on as I want to make sure my performance is good enough for the other mythic bosses.
Anything to be able to squeeze out more dps while not sacrificing survivability?

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9zw1gY3L2vmKpPFh
Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rgeln/advanced

[Chewtoy]

Have we figured out whether or not we should aim for the 4 piece bonus?

BiS looking like (if taking 4 piece):
Helm: Blackhand's Faceguard
Neck: Choker of Bestial Force (Mastery) or Fiery Links of Courage (Versatility)
Shoulders: Blackhand's Shoulderguards or Overdriven Spaulders
Cloak: Ravenous Greatcloak (mastery) or Gronn-Stitched Greatcloak (Versatility)
Chest: Blackhand's Chestguard
Bracers: Bracers of Martial Perfection
Gloves: Gauntlets of Dramatic Blows or Blackhand's Handguards
Belt: Uktar's Belt of Chiming Rings
Legs: Blackhand's Legguards
Boots: Doomslag Greatboots
Ring 1: Siege Bomber's Band
Ring 2: Spellbound Runic Band of Elemental Invincibility
Trinket 1: Blast Furnace Door
Trinket 2: Tablet of Turnbuckle Teamwork (or does the 680 DMF come out better here?)
Weapon: Taner's Terrible Spine
Shield: Kromog's Protecting Palm

I'm leaning more towards tier shoulders, and then with off tier gloves. Thoughts?

There's Crit surpassing mastery discussion at the top. What about versatility vs mastery?

Does Thunderlord become the go to enchant?

[Deleted]

Hiya!

Can anyone help me analyze these logs in what I can improve on as I want to make sure my performance is good enough for the other mythic bosses.
Anything to be able to squeeze out more dps while not sacrificing survivability?

I'm not saying you must do this, but I recommend using the thread Cyclonus created for analyzing logs where I'm sure you'll get all the help you need.

Prot warr log analyzing

[Argeln]

I'm not saying you must do this, but I recommend using the thread Cyclonus created for analyzing logs where I'm sure you'll get all the help you need.

Prot warr log analyzing

I did that, but it seems like there's not much activity in that thread.

[Novaflare]

The reason no one responded is probably because there isn't a whole lot to say - you should be able to see how you can improve on maximizing your cooldown usage yourself if you've got a 49.26% uptime on shield block.

The only thing worth talking about really is your dps on a 2-target cleave fight but considering how often they seem to be split based on what I can see on the logs, it's not a huge surprise or anything. I will say I'm pretty sure Unyielding Strikes is king on Twin Ogron from a dps perspective due to glyph of cleave.