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  1. #1081
    Deleted
    For those of you who have been on the PTR testing HFC, in which order would you rank each tank class and why? Just post your opinion

    I'll be posting this to every tanking class' forum.

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by Artty View Post
    For those of you who have been on the PTR testing HFC, in which order would you rank each tank class and why? Just post your opinion

    I'll be posting this to every tanking class' forum.
    Hard to say when the set bonuses and class trinkets are very influence. For instance, the Prot Warrior trinket and set bonus basically address what Warriors are on the lower end at.

  3. #1083
    Deleted
    Depends on if you are talking in terms of raw survivability or for progress.

    For progress I would have said (Best at the top)

    Warrior / Monk
    Druid / DK
    Pally

  4. #1084
    Deleted
    An indirect buff to warriors is that 3 set bonuses on healers which are about tank healing; and the trinket which gives leech, which should make the self healing problem of warriors less evident.

    Our set up is warrior druid so I'm fairly confident. I feel most sorry for paladin dk line ups, dat mobility.

  5. #1085
    It's not as if our lack of self healing makes improved external healing any better compared to other classes. If certain tanking classes were expected to and could keep themselves up with no external healing, then you could argue that it's a buff to specific classes such as warriors.

    The leech trinket, while a nice bonus, is not going to make any major difference in how much dedicated healing a tank needs when a hard-hitting boss is wailing on you. Keep in mind that even the mythic version of it only converts 0,52% healing to leech. If a boss can kill you in a few hits, having 5k extra HPS is unlikely to have any significant impact.
    Last edited by Toroq; 2015-05-29 at 01:09 PM.

  6. #1086
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Toroq View Post
    It's not as if our lack of self healing makes improved external healing any better compared to other classes. If certain tanking classes were expected to and could keep themselves up with no external healing, then you could argue that it's a buff to specific classes such as warriors.

    The leech trinket, while a nice bonus, is not going to make any major difference in how much dedicated healing a tank needs when a hard-hitting boss is wailing on you. Keep in mind that even the mythic version of it only converts 0,52% healing to leech. If a boss can kill you in a few hits, having 5k extra HPS is unlikely to have any significant impact.
    Well the way that tanks dealt with damage and healing before largely is with themselves, and with beacon healing, since every guild has a holy paladin and its mostly enough for most every day damage for all but warriors.

    However, with druids getting a buff, monks and holy paladins even more of a buff, then I do think it will help warriors specifically.

  7. #1087
    Thoughts on our Level 100 talents once we have our 4-set? I think we can all agree that Anger Management strengthens with our 2-set, and even more so with our 4-set, but will it be stronger than Ravager or Gladiator's Resolve?

    If I had to answer my own question, I'd plan something along these lines

    • Ravager - In multiple-mob tanking situations, I think that Ravager will still be king due to the Revenge proc's that it fosters, allowing you to pump out good damage (both from the Ravager and Revenge uses) and rage generation is through the roof
    • Anger Management - In situations of magic damage and infrequent large hits where a larger effective health pool will serve you well. Getting Last Stand down to a 60-65ish second CD will be quite good, as you can potentially have 25% uptime on it (which in turn may very well account for a much larger portion of your active-tanking uptime on tank-swap fights).
    • Gladiator's Resolve - I used Gladiator's Resolve to offset big hits (mostly only on Oregorger because the entire raid got the benefit on Acid Torrent, and on Blackhand for Smashes just to be safe (though it's not really needed anymore with the 25% nerf to them in P2)), but it seems like Last Stand + 2/4-set are taking care of those situations and directly benefited by Anger Management, so maybe AM pushes GR off to the sidelines in HFC?

    Just my thoughts, would love to hear others (especially if someone has some math on Anger Management, potentially a Mastery/Haste build)
    Jjmackey - Protection Warrior
    WCL Rankings | Incarnate of US-Ner'zhul
    7/7M EN - US 20th | 3/3M ToV - US 15th | 10/10M NH - US 16th

  8. #1088
    Quote Originally Posted by Jjmackey View Post
    Getting Last Stand down to a 60-65ish second CD will be quite good, as you can potentially have 25% uptime on it (which in turn may very well account for a much larger portion of your active-tanking uptime on tank-swap fights).
    I bolded the important part. Anger management with Last Stand is only useful if you can bring the cooldown to below 60 seconds. Blizzard's favorite time stamp for tank swapping mechanics is 30 seconds and this holds true for HFC. I looked through my PTR logs and I would say most, if not all, of the "forced" tank swap mechanics happen at 30 second intervals. If you do not get your Last Stand CD below 60 seconds to deal with these tank swap mechanics then there is minimal benefit.

    Napkin math follows:


    To drop below 60 second Last Stand CD you need to use 900 rage in that 60 second window.

    (Rage per second from AM talent * # of seconds CD is reduced) -> (30 * 30) = 900 rage

    This means we would have to generate 15 rage per second. (Note: if you start with 100 rage that is 100 less rage that you would need to "generate," but it's not realistic to assume 100-120 rage at the beginning of every cycle)

    (Rage needed to reduce CD / 60 Second window for rage to be generated) -> (900/60) -> 15 rage per second
    (Starting with 100 rage) -> (800/60) -> 13.3 rage per second

    In current gear setups we see around 9.0-9.3 rage generated per second. I didn't run a sim for rage generation in Hellfire Citadel gear, but at 715-720 ilvl you would expect to see 10-10.5 rage generated per second. (Note: A mastery/haste build generates 0.2-0.4 more rage per second than a mastery/crit build, but it does not significantly effect the numbers)

    Realistically, you're looking at a Last Stand Cooldown of 65-70 seconds when using Anger Management. The assumption here is that you're using Heavy Repercussions instead of Sudden Death or Unyielding Strikes. Both Sudden Death and Unyielding Strikes give you "free rage" that counts towards Anger Management. Sudden Death doesn't give you enough "free rage" from it's 2.5 procs per minute to get Last Stand below 60 seconds, but using Unyielding Strikes somewhat conservatively (only using Heroic Strike at 3+ stacks) would bring Last Stand close to/below 60 seconds.

    Conclusion:

    Everyone loves to talk about synergy between Anger Management, Last Stand, and the T18 2/4 piece, but in practice it's not very strong. It might see some situational uses on fights with oddly timed boss mechanics or in combination with Unyielding Strikes.

    For me, it's not worth dropping Ravager or Gladiator's Resolve. All Anger Management + Last Stand allows you to do is be less reliant on external cooldowns. This is somewhat a moot point, because in most raids there is a surplus (6+) of tank cooldowns that are available.

  9. #1089
    Pretty funny, I wanted to get an idea of how much anger management reduces a warrior's CDs and the last post was here waiting for me!

    Seems pretty underwhelming of a talent sadly, I always felt warriors needed some help in the defensive CD department but it seems it's not really worth it. At least you guys are getting insane set bonuses and class trinket that will be even better than runetap for magic damage!

  10. #1090
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    Insane set bonuses? I haven't been too up-to-date, but as I recall they got nerfed rather hard.

  11. #1091
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Insane set bonuses? I haven't been too up-to-date, but as I recall they got nerfed rather hard.
    well from what i read with my google fu, which could be outdated, you can get about 50% magic damage reduction with a combo sblock + sbarrier with set bonuses and class trinket.

  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by Emancptr View Post
    I bolded the important part. Anger management with Last Stand is only useful if you can bring the cooldown to below 60 seconds. Blizzard's favorite time stamp for tank swapping mechanics is 30 seconds and this holds true for HFC. I looked through my PTR logs and I would say most, if not all, of the "forced" tank swap mechanics happen at 30 second intervals. If you do not get your Last Stand CD below 60 seconds to deal with these tank swap mechanics then there is minimal benefit.

    Napkin math follows:


    To drop below 60 second Last Stand CD you need to use 900 rage in that 60 second window.

    (Rage per second from AM talent * # of seconds CD is reduced) -> (30 * 30) = 900 rage

    This means we would have to generate 15 rage per second. (Note: if you start with 100 rage that is 100 less rage that you would need to "generate," but it's not realistic to assume 100-120 rage at the beginning of every cycle)

    (Rage needed to reduce CD / 60 Second window for rage to be generated) -> (900/60) -> 15 rage per second
    (Starting with 100 rage) -> (800/60) -> 13.3 rage per second

    In current gear setups we see around 9.0-9.3 rage generated per second. I didn't run a sim for rage generation in Hellfire Citadel gear, but at 715-720 ilvl you would expect to see 10-10.5 rage generated per second. (Note: A mastery/haste build generates 0.2-0.4 more rage per second than a mastery/crit build, but it does not significantly effect the numbers)

    Realistically, you're looking at a Last Stand Cooldown of 65-70 seconds when using Anger Management. The assumption here is that you're using Heavy Repercussions instead of Sudden Death or Unyielding Strikes. Both Sudden Death and Unyielding Strikes give you "free rage" that counts towards Anger Management. Sudden Death doesn't give you enough "free rage" from it's 2.5 procs per minute to get Last Stand below 60 seconds, but using Unyielding Strikes somewhat conservatively (only using Heroic Strike at 3+ stacks) would bring Last Stand close to/below 60 seconds.

    Conclusion:

    Everyone loves to talk about synergy between Anger Management, Last Stand, and the T18 2/4 piece, but in practice it's not very strong. It might see some situational uses on fights with oddly timed boss mechanics or in combination with Unyielding Strikes.

    For me, it's not worth dropping Ravager or Gladiator's Resolve. All Anger Management + Last Stand allows you to do is be less reliant on external cooldowns. This is somewhat a moot point, because in most raids there is a surplus (6+) of tank cooldowns that are available.
    Hey Eman, thanks for your thoughts and information regarding the rage needed to get Last Stand down to a 60 second CD. One thing to note though is that if a fight is short enough (extremely unlikely on progression, I'll admit), even if Last Stand were 65 seconds, it wouldn't necessarily be bad for 30 second intervals of tanking since the first one will cover 0 to 15 seconds, the second will cover from 5 to 20 seconds, third from 10 to 25 seconds and the fourth from 15 to 30 seconds of the interval. But you're right, if it's not 60 seconds or lower, then there will be a portion of tanking during the fight that you can't get a full 15 seconds of Last Stand in during.

    I think a steady damage intake is more important than overall damage reduction, and I would say Last Stand + set bonuses aligns more with lowering TMI, while Gladiator's Resolve is more of a DTPS thing. Again though, the amount to which AM strengthens Last Stand is something that you've outlined; it's something, but not necessarily super significant unless it's readily available for every active tanking situation. Everyone can probably agree that Ravager will still be the go-to in situations where it shines, but the potential of going Unyielding Strikes + Anger Management is a bit more enticing at the very least in situations that we used to only consider Gladiator's Resolve (which isn't super often anyway, depending on the rate at which you progress to the harder hitting bosses of course and the mechanics of the fight)
    Jjmackey - Protection Warrior
    WCL Rankings | Incarnate of US-Ner'zhul
    7/7M EN - US 20th | 3/3M ToV - US 15th | 10/10M NH - US 16th

  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Jjmackey View Post
    One thing to note though is that if a fight is short enough (extremely unlikely on progression, I'll admit), even if Last Stand were 65 seconds, it wouldn't necessarily be bad for 30 second intervals of tanking since the first one will cover 0 to 15 seconds, the second will cover from 5 to 20 seconds, third from 10 to 25 seconds and the fourth from 15 to 30 seconds of the interval.
    I'd say that somewhat falls under the "oddly timed boss mechanics" which he mentioned.

    I remember having a discussion in this thread about US + AM at one point, and I'm sad that it seems like we will mostly stick to Ravager again. AM is definitely the most fun choice in that tier imo (who doesn't love pressing more buttons?) and I've actually ended up using it twice in T17, although they were both occasions where I wanted a slightly shorter CD on Mocking Banner and didn't particularly care much for the shorter mitigation CDs.

    You can't focus solely on our 4p when considering AM though, it still lowers the CD on Demo Shout and SW as well, and makes up for a bit of the damage lost from Ravager with the shorter BB/Ava/BS cooldown. Of course then you again have to consider whether those seconds on Demo and SW actually make any difference with the specific timings of the boss you're fighting.
    Making any clear comparison between AM and Ravager just seems difficult to me - the decision between Ravager and Gladiator's Resolve is always pretty clear because Gladiator's bonus is so simplistic.

    If there's a situation where you want more CDs, perhaps it will be worth considering, but as stated by Emancptr you will most likely have enough external CDs that you won't need those extra personals and can simply stick to Ravager.

  14. #1094
    Deleted
    This makes me so sad Eman I would say that this tier at least should provide us with more opportunity to play around with talents than the last as there are quite a few situational bosses towards the end

  15. #1095
    As I said, my post was mainly about how I will value Anger Management next tier. It was also to give people a clearer picture of the CD of Last Stand when used with Anger Management.

    I think there are fights/situations where some people will still highly value AM + Last Stand. I also think there's a lot of fights where people are going to try using AM and it may work out well. Mostly because there are a lot of fights with non-parry-able damage in Hellfire Citadel (especially on later bosses) that greatly devalues ravager.

    AM + Unyielding Strikes is still a very potent combo for reducing CDs. If you're going to use AM you're most likely going to take it with Unyielding Strikes because it simply gives you too much free rage. As mentioned earlier, if you use Unyielding Strikes at 3+ stacks a conservative estimate gives you 270 "free rage" at the cost of using 90 rage on Heroic Strike. That means 9 seconds off Last Stand CD for "free."

    Still, my greatest concern is the replaceability of Last Stand as a CD. For me, Disc priest Clarity of Will and/or external cooldowns from your raid are just as strong as Last Stand + 4 piece.

  16. #1096
    Well, and here i was hoping they would change the prot set bonus. it just blows my mind how they let the monk one that reduces Guard CD throu but give us one of the worst ive seen in a long time.

    sure, the last stand barrier has its time and uses, but in comparision is just feel left out and get the feeling that they never player a prot warrior.

  17. #1097
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadros View Post
    Well, and here i was hoping they would change the prot set bonus. it just blows my mind how they let the monk one that reduces Guard CD throu but give us one of the worst ive seen in a long time.

    sure, the last stand barrier has its time and uses, but in comparision is just feel left out and get the feeling that they never player a prot warrior.
    Well the trouble with Monks right now, is that their stagger got nerfed a decent amount and got the decent exemption of 'unblockable stuff', so at face value it is still a nerf, but of course they are still strong because they are riding the Guard gravy train, but its pretty much one single spell they currently get large parts of their strength from.

    I would not be surprised if within the final balacing pass it got nerfed a decent amount too; lord knows it should.

    As for warriors, I think it is a good set bonus, last one was very good, too good perhaps but this one is just good. It might make anger management viable in some fights, but it also makes shield barrier close to around half of what a regular guard is for monks, that isn't too bad.

  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyuben View Post
    Well the trouble with Monks right now, is that their stagger got nerfed a decent amount and got the decent exemption of 'unblockable stuff', so at face value it is still a nerf, but of course they are still strong because they are riding the Guard gravy train, but its pretty much one single spell they currently get large parts of their strength from.

    I would not be surprised if within the final balacing pass it got nerfed a decent amount too; lord knows it should.

    As for warriors, I think it is a good set bonus, last one was very good, too good perhaps but this one is just good. It might make anger management viable in some fights, but it also makes shield barrier close to around half of what a regular guard is for monks, that isn't too bad.
    my problem with it is, that the 4 set bonus is only active when one of our CDs is active.

    As Eman pointed out, most tank swaps occur at the 30 sec mark, and even with anger management, you cant make last stand be ready for all of them, so glad stance will still be king in mythic.
    Maybe im just salty because of monk-guard in general and it will indeed be a good addition to our normal kit.

  19. #1099
    I'm not sure I understand the big push to get last stand under 60 seconds with anger management (based on 30 second taunt cycles).

    30 second taunt swaps already have:
    • shield block uptime of 80%
    • demoralizing shout to plug the gap every time
    • shield wall available every other
    • last stand available every other (based on 2 set)

    Gladiator's Resolve provides a 6.67% damage reduction all the time (5/75), or Ravager already provides a 36.67% uptime on 20% parry for those cycles.

    Paying the combined survivability cost of US and AM just so you can use last stand every time, when it already alternates very well with shield wall, seems like you're trying to force something that isn't needed for a cost that is too high.

    This is all independent of ironbarks that would be available every taunt cycle, and slews of other externals that are in the raid.

  20. #1100
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadros View Post
    my problem with it is, that the 4 set bonus is only active when one of our CDs is active.

    As Eman pointed out, most tank swaps occur at the 30 sec mark, and even with anger management, you cant make last stand be ready for all of them, so glad stance will still be king in mythic.
    Maybe im just salty because of monk-guard in general and it will indeed be a good addition to our normal kit.
    Even so, you can use last stand every other time, instead of every 1/4 of the time, and instead of last stand being shit, (if you'll pardon my french), it will be actually good.

    And as was mentioned before, tank healing is getting buffed in this patch, so the self healing weakness of warriors is getting addressed. An overall good set of bonuses for warrior I think, I would maybe put it something like DK=Monk>Warrior=Druid>Paladin with no obvious big power gaps.

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