6.0 PvE Ret Paladin Theorycraft & Discussion

[decyphier]

Just wondering if any rets that have tested BRF have figured out what talents they'll probably take on each boss, or the bosses seen so far? I just got the PTR downloaded but haven't gotten a chance to go in yet.

[Draekan]

I have a 0.2 second clash setup in my clcret for CS and Hammer to be pushed ahead of the others if they are coming off at relatively the same time. Works okay.
If you're wondering just spam one or the other - realistically our brain goes through more than 0.3 seconds of hesitation.

See now you've taught me something here, with the "clash setup" thing. I noticed on Mythic Ko'ragh progress for the first time that instead of waiting a split second for HoW the addon prio'd an exorcism instead. I was running SW so the order was more like HoW > Other Filler > Other Filler > HoW instead of HoW > Other filler > HoW. Thanks very much!

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Also, for anyone clued up with Simcraft. Can anyone confirm that it has been updated with the new values of the PvP 4 set? Obviously this happened a while ago, but I see ALOT of people now saying in other threads that they're simming higher with a few HC pieces and a Mythic piece than they are with the 4 set. Now I suspect that they may have an older version or something, but I was wondering if anyone can clear this up for me?

[Reghame]

So many better ways to get our burst under control, namely nerf AW to 10% instead of 20%, and buff the other abilities accordingly. Less burst, more sustained.

Which, in that vein, @Reghame - I feel our set bonuses are intended to increase our sustained. That's why I say if people think we need a buff, then moving our set bonus proc chance back to 30% would be nice. It isn't an uncontrollable increase in our burst and it doesn't affect pvp balance like a SoL buff would. It would just be a flat buff to our sustained damage.

It does increase our ST with that change, However, regardless of how much damage wings gives, it still enables the use of hammer of wrath, simply because of that factor alone does the tier set lose weight on fights where wings is up longer. The buff you would want would actually not do much for us in an overall scheme of things, even more so for progression where you tend to use wings for important things if it is possible to not lose uptime.

We are certainly in a weird spot for number tuning balancing right now as in we cant go too much higher without major repercussions on PVP. In a world where burst is a big thing for pvp ( always will be) and we have the conditions to do high burst, but little sustain just because of how the spec was built, you cant go much higher for the sustain because it almost always directly impacts the burst too.


Its prolly why i have such a gripe with holypower and zealotry. The system we had ( which has not changed one bit) is one where a cooldown like zealotry can bypass and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing. We rely on hammer of wrath and a big hitter ability with many filler spells. Thats all great and all, but when you get to spam both of your strongest abilities back to back, of which one is even ranged. it can be a problem.


The only immediate change i could see for ret that would not destroy the fabric of PVP balance would be to lower the amount of haste needed to lower Sanc of battle and or change our mastery by some level that reduces burst and supports sustained damage. Making our mastery stronger but turning it into a semi short duration dot would support this i would think. but im not sure if people would like more little numbers flying around their screen.


of course they could always do nothing or infact nerf us. so with all that said. I think the easier and most likely thing to do would be to nerf us ( because it seems like thats what they want from what i keep seeing/hearing)


As for forcing empowered seals on us. Yes they absolutely do want to force it on us. Not because they think it's "cool" but because it shifts our damage to a more sustained type damage. as we all know, using this talent is purely awkward in the fact that although it promotes sustained dps, you end up using a lot of time using non damaging GCDs, which lower sustained dps. and infact STILL buffs our burst by a fair amount.

the spec has a hard time doing it's main function when the spec gets thrown multiple new tools and methods which both promote and destabilize itself. we have now hit a critical point where there is no longer much blizzard can do because of all these clashing tools without directly destroying pvp balance or making the spec unplayable for PVE.


As solcra said its time to play a little game we all really really hate. Wait and see

[Deleted]

Hello guys.

I've been looking at the new alchy trink. Has anyone done any sim's on how it should compare to Scabbard and Mythic BRF trinkets?ptr.wowhead.com/item=122604

[TomatoBisque]

Maybe I'm stupid but if they wanted to buff our sustained damage and nerf our burst couldn't they shift that damage into Judgment or Crusader Strike to compensate?

[Grognard]

They could, but they haven't. Not to say that such a change isn't coming, however; still too early in the PTR, I think.

[Xs]

Also, for anyone clued up with Simcraft. Can anyone confirm that it has been updated with the new values of the PvP 4 set? Obviously this happened a while ago, but I see ALOT of people now saying in other threads that they're simming higher with a few HC pieces and a Mythic piece than they are with the 4 set. Now I suspect that they may have an older version or something, but I was wondering if anyone can clear this up for me?

All of my tests done earlier, ran PvP 4 set vs HC gear on the current SimC version (603-24) and I conclusively proved that you would do more DPS across the board with the PvP set than with Heroic or basic Mythic gear. If they're simming differently than they're doing something to the results to change that and if needs be I can rerun the tests or provide all the code required to do them yourself.

In the interests of being as transparent as possible, my test's eccentricities beyond default SimC are, 5 minute boss timer to more accurately reflect HM, 25ms to more accurately reflect myself and it used my gear at the time, which included the normal (665) neck, 690 legendary q ring, mythic (685) earthfury band and Scabbard. All Sims ran at 1000 Iterations, because who has the kind of time to run 10k for an graph.

http://imgur.com/a/HC4wA#0

[MBDTF]

WHELPH:

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...67653964058624


"@mbdtfvow @Celestalon @holinka It's a known bug and not an intended change. We plan to address this in 6.1"

[Marrel]

Guys, we should just go over to official forums, this is where all the REAL theorycrafting is happening.


Also,

WHELPH:
https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...67653964058624
"@mbdtfvow @Celestalon @holinka It's a known bug and not an intended change. We plan to address this in 6.1"

phew

[Solsacra]

WHELPH:

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...67653964058624


"@mbdtfvow @Celestalon @holinka It's a known bug and not an intended change. We plan to address this in 6.1"

so it was either:
bugged from the start and the 'nerf' eg; No Sword of Light interaction was the intended design, and they're just getting around to it now.
or,
The bug on the PTR is known, and HoW is intended to benefit from Sword of Light and will be rectified for 6.1.

Much confuse. If it's the former of the two then i can only face palm at this. They should've just nerfed it during Beta when it was 'known' either way this kind of statement doesn't make sense, they could've addressed this in a hotfix, or 6.0.3. The latter of the two, well, thats what i'm hoping is the case, this doesn't need a nerf, unless they want to create even more balance issues.

Maybe i'm just reading that tweet wrong. It still seems open ended. I realize it can be hard to relay a complex idea/statement while attempting to condense that into 150 characters without sounding like an idiot, but damn.

Looks like a follow up tweet clarified the strange wording, its #2.

[MBDTF]

followup tweet.

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...71282720669696

"@mbdtfvow @Celestalon @holinka To clarify, it's currently a bug on the PTR which will be fixed in the next build."

[Reghame]

Maybe I'm stupid but if they wanted to buff our sustained damage and nerf our burst couldn't they shift that damage into Judgment or Crusader Strike to compensate?

thats something of which comes at a cost. What do they nerf? if they nerf finishers then you have the issue of finishers not actually being a finisher. if they nerf hammer of wrath then the nerf is too great (since hammer is too important in it's current standing) This is what i was talking about with the conflicting mechanics of the spec. you either dull it our to be where your pressing different buttons that do the exact same thing, something that does not actually work, or an incredibly over powered beast.

Another reason why i dont like just buffing generators is because HA increases them by another 30% AKA there is a point to which you will then be specced HA to actually never end up using said finisher because it actually does less damage under said coolie.

lots of repercussions when trying to buff ret right now unfortunately. Not sure how to fix without a major change honestly.

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WHELPH:

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...67653964058624


"@mbdtfvow @Celestalon @holinka It's a known bug and not an intended change. We plan to address this in 6.1"

Not surprising. Considering HoW was bugged we might want to take a look at other like spells in our kit incase they overlook those as well. Things like judgement come to my mind might also be having the same issue.

[TomatoBisque]

I don't think it's really as all or nothing as you're presenting it. For me, Hammer of Wrath is something like three times as much damage as my Crusader Strikes (and I'm looking at minimum hit, so this should be outside of pots/procs/wings). If they nerfed Hammer of Wrath by 20% they could buff CS/Judgment/Exo by like 20-25% each and Hammer would still be hitting for twice as much.

[Draekan]

All of my tests done earlier, ran PvP 4 set vs HC gear on the current SimC version (603-24) and I conclusively proved that you would do more DPS across the board with the PvP set than with Heroic or basic Mythic gear. If they're simming differently than they're doing something to the results to change that and if needs be I can rerun the tests or provide all the code required to do them yourself.

In the interests of being as transparent as possible, my test's eccentricities beyond default SimC are, 5 minute boss timer to more accurately reflect HM, 25ms to more accurately reflect myself and it used my gear at the time, which included the normal (665) neck, 690 legendary q ring, mythic (685) earthfury band and Scabbard. All Sims ran at 1000 Iterations, because who has the kind of time to run 10k for an graph.

http://imgur.com/a/HC4wA#0

Thanks Xs for clarifying

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Guys, we should just go over to official forums, this is where all the REAL theorycrafting is happening.


Also,


phew

I had to change boxers 3 times because this made me piss myself so much xD

[MarshallX]

Today on how not to play Retribution ... spot the unnoticed misclick.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=14

[Draekan]

Today on how not to play Retribution ... spot the unnoticed misclick.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=14

*Puts on inspector glasses* I'm not 100% confident here, but I think ya dun goof'd.

[Spacehunter]

Oh dear

Was expecting something a little innocuous like when i LoH our (dps)DK instead of one of our Tanks one time.

[Serani]

Today on how not to play Retribution ... spot the unnoticed misclick.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=14

Stout Augmentation 1 89.85%

My favourite part, you noticed you didn't have an Aug rune up shortly into the fight but not the seal. RIPerino your chance for ranking this week.

[Deleted]

Today on how not to play Retribution ... spot the unnoticed misclick.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=14

Must have been the night for it; we got our first Imperator kill last night and it was literally my worst of all the pulls we needed to progress on it - which did include my being in SoR from first intermission until the end without me noticing #justbad. At the end of my kill video, everyone is cheering but I'm just shouting 'Noo!' as I realise what I've done far too late.

[Deleted]

Today on how not to play Retribution ... spot the unnoticed misclick.

I like the fact that you did the same thing the week before