6.0 PvE Ret Paladin Theorycraft & Discussion

[cowbear]

well for a chance to listen thoughts the ret archimond trinket is insane does it have some kinda of proc or its just static 22%? i guess since no way to be 220% dmg inc
most of those trinkets look insane but ret in my eyes looks better than the rest and it does stack 3 times? or is that also a lie

[Deleted]

well for a chance to listen thoughts the ret archimond trinket is insane does it have some kinda of proc or its just static 22%? i guess since no way to be 220% dmg inc
most of those trinkets look insane but ret in my eyes looks better than the rest and it does stack 3 times? or is that also a lie

The decimal point is in the wrong place. With the three stacks up it is about 20% (depends on which version of course). However, it's far from static. If you switch target for your CS then the stacks are reset. If you don't CS at least once per 10 seconds, the stacks will drop off. With the way the fights are panning out from looking at a few on the PTR so far, it won't always be a straightforward trinket to get the best out of.

[MarshallX]

What makes ret different from ferals in terms of CDs? They are single target Jesus' but aren't being touted as insane in PVP like ret is when we actually have the tuning we need.

I think they should just give Holy %DMG devo, give Ret back our %magic devo and be done with this.

[anaxie]

Paladin is a popular class, must be fine, no need to fix.

Evident by the usual last minute token attention all our specs get every single beta, every single ptr.

Excuse me are you pandering to me? Guess my presence seems to have waned. Regardless ret is in a fucked up place right now. Our only consolation is we return to our strength and as a consewuence our biggest weakness. In 6.2. Exceptional single target damage with non existent aoe or cleave. Next tier anything but isn't an option sadly

[RagnorZ]

Popularity =/= Quality

Excuse me are you pandering to me? Guess my presence seems to have waned.

Yes I channeling some Anaxie sarcasim.

So ready for Emp Seals next tier boys....

[anaxie]

The decimal point is in the wrong place. With the three stacks up it is about 20% (depends on which version of course). However, it's far from static. If you switch target for your CS then the stacks are reset. If you don't CS at least once per 10 seconds, the stacks will drop off. With the way the fights are panning out from looking at a few on the PTR so far, it won't always be a straightforward trinket to get the best out of.

Uh yeah it will. Lol? Scaling % mods especially mostly passive ones are nuts

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We already have all the abilities we need; I really see no point in asking for even more. The main problem Rets face is the tier bonuses we get that make it such a nightmare to balance our core abilities around. I wish they would stop trying to give us short duration God mode which then means we end up struggling if we are unlucky or the flow of the fight doesn't suit our cooldowns.

50% uptime is hardly short duration

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Popularity =/= Quality

Yes ret is viable but as we discussed last night on Finalboss we're not good at anything and quite close to bottom for cleave and single target. It gets tiering being the worst for everything! We need at least ONE strong reason to bring us to raids.

"Our ret is doing well."
Yes, rets can perform decently if you're not in the best of guilds- what the problem is that at higher levels of raiding where there's already harsh competition for raid spots you can't expect raid spots as a ret, especially when you don't shine at anything.

The current thoughts of ret from "others" is simply ''what do they do that others can't?'' and the answer is simply "nothing".
This can be said about Shadow Priest as well but at least they got multidotting to shine with.

I hope we get buffed to a point where we compete with Arcane Mages and Feral Druids for ST.

Well gets worse next tier go from average cleave and aoe to literally none.

Also after you asked me to be on show why didn't you respond back. Show was clearly missing the anaxie factor and POV. Not to toot my own horn or say I'm godmode since that hasn't been the case for awhile now buuuut. Cmon now who's one of the most iconic rest never mind the community my silly threads helped bulk up to the active levels they are today. My legacy is the community <3 you all

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Yes I channeling some Anaxie sarcasim.

So ready for Emp Seals next tier boys....

Its not really bad and the 15% bulk on how with all the % mods and double dipped haste multiplier is going to go a long long way. Was surprised how good seraph felt in highmaul in play and may be surprised here was aswell. Guess you could call overwhelming success on latest talent tree since they all had their own raid tier

[RagnorZ]

I get that ret has a lot of issues and I get that people are frustrated about it, but claiming something like "being the worst for everything" without solid proof is literally the worst kind of feedback you can give to anyone.

Assuming that you (or anyone) link me logs and prove that we really are the worst at everything, can you tell me why? (spoiler: It has to do with the core design of ret)

Well my wish list is

Un-nerf: Sword of Light, HoTR, DS
Remove: EmpDS, FV bonus to DS (FV weaving), Emp Seals
Re-balance/Change: All T100, and T90 Lights Hammer (shorter duration, more damage in shorter time), Make exo proc mastery and/or seals. Make new set bonus add duration to wings instead of reduce cd.

... but that's a lot, no way they would make that many changes.

[Deleted]

Uh yeah it will. Lol? Scaling % mods especially mostly passive ones are nuts

Sorry, not sure what you're saying here. I didn't say the trinket wasn't good I said it will not be a natural process to use; very much like the Empowered Seals we'll be likely having to use.

50% uptime is hardly short duration

Uptime does not equal duration. Besides, even the standard AW will pale into the background compared to the few seconds when you have ridiculous damage from the 4-set.

Also on that note, playing to our strengths is not necessarily what we will have to do for the good of the raid; so the uptime is variable from fight to fight.

[MarshallX]

Well my wish list is

Un-nerf: Sword of Light, HoTR, DS
Remove: EmpDS, FV bonus to DS (FV weaving), Emp Seals
Re-balance/Change: All T100, and T90 Lights Hammer (shorter duration, more damage in shorter time), Make exo proc mastery and/or seals. Make new set bonus add duration to wings instead of reduce cd.

... but that's a lot, no way they would make that many changes.

+remove target requirement on HotR

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

if you want proof that ret is the worst dps class you just go to warcraftlogs and select statistic and set it to a specific fight, 90thnpercentile and only 695+ ilvl.

Things like Frost mage, Gladiator Warrior etc might be under us but the same class has 1-2 other dps specs that outperform us. I'll post some lonjs when I get home.

[Deleted]

if you want proof that ret is the worst dps class you just go to warcraftlogs and select statistic and set it to a specific fight, 90thnpercentile and only 695+ ilvl.

Things like Frost mage, Gladiator Warrior etc might be under us but the same class has 1-2 other dps specs that outperform us. I'll post some lonjs when I get home.

Overall dps isn't proof of anything though. Not all DPS classes are doing the same job, much as with healers.

[Akromax13]

Hey Akro. Got a few things for you.

Looking at your recent Blackhand kill here ,....., you can see several important things. You didn't use a second combat pot, you only used AW twice in a near 6 minute fight, and you only used execution sentence twice. You also were in seal of righteousness the entire fight despite not using empowered seals. Fix issues like that in your play and you will certainly gain that 4k extra dps, and probably more.

Actually on this fight, I did not feel at ease seen that it is one of first one time that I down it.

But thank you for these advice(councils).

I thought more of fights as Blast furnace or of iron maiden.

And for my string , it is good ?

[threads]

Well my wish list is

Un-nerf: Sword of Light, HoTR, DS
Remove: EmpDS, FV bonus to DS (FV weaving), Emp Seals
Re-balance/Change: All T100, and T90 Lights Hammer (shorter duration, more damage in shorter time), Make exo proc mastery and/or seals. Make new set bonus add duration to wings instead of reduce cd.

... but that's a lot, no way they would make that many changes.

i agree with remove empDS but why remove FV weaving? The other talents on the row don't help aoe/cleave at all. i would just remove empDS and buff DS to compensate

[RagnorZ]

Overall dps isn't proof of anything though. Not all DPS classes are doing the same job, much as with healers.

What different jobs are dps doing on Gruul and Kromog for example... basically every class has a spec that's 10% better than ret at worst... and at best much much better especially on aoe/cleave.

Gruul
90th percentile https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&bracket=7
75th percentile https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=75&bracket=7

Kromog
90th percentile https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&bracket=7
75th percentile https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=75&bracket=7

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i agree with remove empDS but why remove FV weaving? The other talents on the row don't help aoe/cleave at all. i would just remove empDS and buff DS to compensate

Too much ramp up time build hp FV build hp DS is a long time without T17 set bonuses... did you play in 5.4? AoE was SoR at 2 or 3+ then exo, hotr, other generators, ds... and it was fairly competitive with other dps because those abilities weren't dog tier nerfed to the ground.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Overall dps isn't proof of anything though. Not all DPS classes are doing the same job, much as with healers.

Specific fights...
Frost Mages, Frost DKs and other non played specs are removed for obvious reasons... (they got better performing specs)

Set to 90th percentile, last 2 weeks- current standings (meaning parses recorded the last 2 weeks) - 695 ilvl or higher
Gruul
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Shadow Priest, Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin

Oregorger
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin, Unholy DK.

Blast Furnace
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Feral Druid (by a mile), Hunters (all specs), WW Monk.

Hans'gar & Franzok
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Shaman (both), Assasin Rogue, Ret Paladin

Flamebender Ka'graz
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Shadow Priest, Ret Paladin, Assasination Rogue.

Kromog
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Combat Rogue, WW Monk, Retribution Paladin.

Beastlord Darmac
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - WW Monk, Combat Rogue, Retribution Paladin / Fury Warrior (less than 100 dps from eachother)

Operator Thogar
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Shadowpriest, Druid (both), WW Monk

Iron Maidens
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Enh Shaman, Retribution Paladin, MM Hunter

Blackhand
Bottom 3 dps Classes (low to high) - Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin, Fury Warrior.
Obviously Blackhand is a disgrace to all melee and it's no surprises there.

To sum up.
We're in the bottom 3 dps class for 7-8 encounters out of 10. If we flip it around and look how many times we are in top 3- hang on make it top 5... and we are on the list 0 out of 10 fights, closest we get is on Operator Thogar with 6th spot class-wise. If you then also consider how harsh BRF has been towards melee? Yes there's nothing wrong with bringing rets because we have useful tools and so on, plus you can always bring whatever if you're not pushing too hard/early on.

If we compare ourselves to the other really poor performing classes we find:
Shamans at 5 placings in bottom 3. However we find them in top 5 dps on the other 5 fights (slighly depending on spec)
Shadow Priest at 3 placings in bottom 3. However we find them in top 5 dps on 4 other fights.
WW Monks at 4 placings in bottom 3. However we find them in top 5 dps on 4 other fights.

So what's gonna change in Hellfire Citadel compared to the rest?
Well our cleave gets reduced because we won't use T17 bonuses anymore.
Our Single Target might go slightly up with the new tier bonuses, too early to say for definite still.

How people don't see the problem here is beyond me... Yes BRF is horribly made for Ret with all but 2-3 encounters heavily based on cleave and aoe (and being melee unfriendly) but we're bad outside the cleave and aoe as well. What does all this tell us? We got no niche- we can do everything... mediocre. Like mentioned on the Finalboss show I hope we get a clear answer through tuning (or just answers in twitter/blueposts) in regards to what we're supposed to be good at. It's not a good state to be in when your damage is heavily impacted by RNG (which is bad for progress) and you have no "Omg we need ret, X, Y for this encounter". I mean- if you were a raid leader and you had a ret on roster that you know can't pull the same numbers as a warlock or a warrior- why would you gear the paladin?


*if you're gonna quote this just remove the entire thing and put "Bear rant" or something to avoid thread flooding*

[RagnorZ]

+remove target requirement on HotR

Yes, why can't it work like Blood Boil plz

[Deleted]

What different jobs are dps doing on Gruul and Kromog for example... basically every class has a spec that's 10% better than ret at worst... and at best much much better especially on aoe/cleave.

On Gruul, nothing; just a straight up single target fight. On Kromog, DPS varies massively with assignment as it does on many fights in BRF.

[rahkarn]

Anyone seen maegor in a while? Used some weak auras he/she shared and haven't been able to find them again through search feature.


could have been xenocidic's wa not 100%

[Deleted]

How people don't see the problem here is beyond me... Yes BRF is horribly made for Ret with all but 2-3 encounters heavily based on cleave and aoe (and being melee unfriendly) but we're bad outside the cleave and aoe as well. What does all this tell us? We got no niche- we can do everything... mediocre.

Well, I've said where I think we're strong on lots of the fights before. Well, by that I mean 'were strong' as we are considerably weaker in the same situations now (comparatively speaking). But when did you think it was ever not like this?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Well, I've said where I think we're strong on lots of the fights before. Well, by that I mean 'were strong' as we are considerably weaker in the same situations now (comparatively speaking). But when did you think it was ever not like this?

Go through logs and find the so called "strong" fights for us dps wise. Yes I know (and agree) that our utility shines on a couple encounters but Hellfire Citadel doesn't show the same love for those (so far anyways) and what we're left with then is our damage- that's why I'm pushing the point of our lackluster dps and lack of niche. It's a real problem for those who want to be competitive in a 20man guild where melee rosters have shrunk...