6.0 PvE Ret Paladin Theorycraft & Discussion

[thunderdragon2]

tho fyurie? dose it matter wither i go for mastery or multistrike since if they work together they should have the same weight as a stat?

[Toejam]

Hello, old lurker here. Just returned to WoW after a 3 year hiatus, and I'm looking to get back into Ret, but I'd like some clarification on the rotations. Thanks to anyone who answers.

First off, for General AoE you said to use Seal of Righteousness on two targets. Is that the case for FV AoE as well? Would not double dotting with Seal of Truth be better?

Second, again with General Aoe, you said that with 3 targets or more you swap Templar's verdict with Divine Storm completely. With Final Verdict, I assume you're still supposed to be weaving Final Verdict and Divine Storm so long as there are more than 2 targets?

At the moment I'm still running the outdated haste build and I noticed that I couldn't quite use a HoW > filler > HoW > filler > HoW rotation without it being slightly clunky during Sanctified Wrath. If I swap out all that haste in favour of Master/Crit/Multistrike gear, should I start using HoW > Filler > Filler > HoW > Filler > Filler during Sanctified Wrath because of all the lost Haste?

When pre-potting with Sanctified Wrath, should I immediately pop Avenging Wrath as soon as the boss fight starts as to have the most overlap between the pot and AW at the same time, or should I wait till I have 5 HoP before popping AW?

Also, when using Holy Avenger, should I prioritize Exorcism over Judgement during my CD? I feel that it does more damage overall, and while prioritizing Judgement over Exo for a normal rotation smooths the rotation out to have less down time; when you're generating 3 HoP per ability, using the most damaging spells seems to be the better pick.

Another, is when I just finish using an Empowered Divine Storm during an AoE pack and it immediately refreshes. Should I use it again immediately, or wait till my FV buff is up?

Thanks again in advance for any answers.

EDIT: Also, if you're running EmpSeals, what should you run for the 5th talent for cleave bosses?

[Fyurie]

tho fyurie? dose it matter wither i go for mastery or multistrike since if they work together they should have the same weight as a stat?

I've been sticking to a Mastery > Multistrike policy for now, but if I can get items with both on, then I'm pretty happy about it. We gain 5% more Mastery from our attunement, so it should, ideally, edge out in front.

[Deleted]

Hey guys, I am fairly new to WoW and retpala, and i have a quick question. I dont really understand how Final Verdict can be such a DPS boost. Is the increased damage on divine storm really THAT strong? Or is it something else? I just cant understand at all how this is supposed to be stronger than the attack power and haste boost from empowered seals. Would be nice if someone could enlighten me.

Thank you

[Deleted]

Hey guys, I am fairly new to WoW and retpala, and i have a quick question. I dont really understand how Final Verdict can be such a DPS boost. Is the increased damage on divine storm really THAT strong? Or is it something else? I just cant understand at all how this is supposed to be stronger than the attack power and haste boost from empowered seals. Would be nice if someone could enlighten me.

Thank you

tv is physical dmg being reduced by armor. Fv is holy dmg=true. Also it can make ds hit like a truck

[noepeen]

Hey guys, I am fairly new to WoW and retpala, and i have a quick question. I dont really understand how Final Verdict can be such a DPS boost. Is the increased damage on divine storm really THAT strong? Or is it something else? I just cant understand at all how this is supposed to be stronger than the attack power and haste boost from empowered seals. Would be nice if someone could enlighten me.

Thank you

There are a few things that make FV a good dps boost compared to the other talents.

1. First of all, it makes your TV ignore armor, since Holy Dmg is not affected by armor.
2. It increases the potency of our Divine Storm procc.
3. It increases our 2-target cleave DpS.
4. Unlike the other level 100 talents, it doesn't take globals and/or holy power to activate.
Seraphim costs you 1.5 TV's to activate and requires some level of attention to maximize it's potencial, so let's make that 2 TV's every 30 second.
That's around 45k damage you loose out on every 30s (~50% mastery and 10% crit @630 itemlevel, selfbuffed BoM, using FV),
resulting in a DpS loss of ~1.5k DpS that Seraphim has to cover up, before it's adding any damage. Probably bad math, but you get the point.

EmpSeals are costing you a lot of globals, where you could generate holy power instead. Also, from my limited experience, it's really clunky and requires
a lot of attention to maximize the potential of just 2 buffs, not even talking about fights where 20% movement speed could be worth the globals. With
more haste, we lose more and more empty globals, making this talent worse in higher gear. The scaling of % buffs are probably overshadowing that loss,
but once again, I'm not trying to convince you with numbers, someone else is probably a lot better with math than I am.

[Deleted]

Ok i think i got it now. Thanks guys :P

[Pheros]

Just for the sake of discussion, for those of us in guilds that will most likely not be doing much Mythic - which trinkets should we be pushing for? I realize that right now ilvl = upgrade, but I want to know what to be shooting for. Looks like the arena trinket will be pretty good...

[Deleted]

Don't forget the 10 yard range!
To me that has also been an amazing bonus so far, I didn't even realise that until after a few days.

yep, thats also amazing

[Maegor]

Hello, old lurker here. Just returned to WoW after a 3 year hiatus, and I'm looking to get back into Ret, but I'd like some clarification on the rotations. Thanks to anyone who answers.

First off, for General AoE you said to use Seal of Righteousness on two targets. Is that the case for FV AoE as well? Would not double dotting with Seal of Truth be better?

Second, again with General Aoe, you said that with 3 targets or more you swap Templar's verdict with Divine Storm completely. With Final Verdict, I assume you're still supposed to be weaving Final Verdict and Divine Storm so long as there are more than 2 targets?

At the moment I'm still running the outdated haste build and I noticed that I couldn't quite use a HoW > filler > HoW > filler > HoW rotation without it being slightly clunky during Sanctified Wrath. If I swap out all that haste in favour of Master/Crit/Multistrike gear, should I start using HoW > Filler > Filler > HoW > Filler > Filler during Sanctified Wrath because of all the lost Haste?

When pre-potting with Sanctified Wrath, should I immediately pop Avenging Wrath as soon as the boss fight starts as to have the most overlap between the pot and AW at the same time, or should I wait till I have 5 HoP before popping AW?

Also, when using Holy Avenger, should I prioritize Exorcism over Judgement during my CD? I feel that it does more damage overall, and while prioritizing Judgement over Exo for a normal rotation smooths the rotation out to have less down time; when you're generating 3 HoP per ability, using the most damaging spells seems to be the better pick.

Another, is when I just finish using an Empowered Divine Storm during an AoE pack and it immediately refreshes. Should I use it again immediately, or wait till my FV buff is up?

Thanks again in advance for any answers.

EDIT: Also, if you're running EmpSeals, what should you run for the 5th talent for cleave bosses?

In order of paragraphs:
1)censure is weaker and SoR got it's on hit damage to be buffed to equal sot. So SoR wins at 2 targets now.

2)yes, weave at 2+ targets in FV. If not in FV, use DS over TV at 3+ targets.

3)haste does not make a difference in SW rotation. It is always how>filler>how>finisher>repeat. Reason being, SW cuts how's cd down to 2 gcds from 4 gcds during aw.

4)when prepotting with any t75 talent burst at the beginning (meaning pop it all). Don't wait for 5 hp. So you should prepot>pull>aw>trinkets+ES>rotation

5)don't forget that J procs seal whereas exo does not. Seal damage should make J win in ST. In aoe + mass exo glyph, exo will win. CS will win over both because mastery + seal.

6)this is the trickiest question. If they will not survive another weave, use it. If they will, weave if there are less than 5 targets. If more than 5 targets and they will live longer than 15ish seconds, use it so you don't overwrite EDS procs.

7)I don't use EmpS, so I can't give the best answer here. SW is simming highest with EmpS on ST right now. So if your cleave target target has a main target prio then I would still use SW. For pure aoe, I guess HA, since EmpS eats globals it has to devalue DP.

[Reghame]

i think solcra said this a while back but if you want an overall easy rotation and a way to do both AOE/burstaoe/single target, you should go with HA execution and final verdict. Reason being is that HA is still good for single (slightly behind SW) but way ahead in AOE, ES because the single to AOe ration between LH and ES is so huge and ST is usually more preferred. and FV because it does both AOE and single target ( sometimes at the same time!)

As for gear, just get whatever has more STR on it honestly. i cant find a reason to hate any stat right now, even versatility is great for ret due to increase DR and healing. The difference in dps between a fully optimal ret dps build vs one who gets w/e they want wont be that great. But there will be a very large gap between noobs who will only go for 1 item cause of it's stats and not picking anything up whos gona be like 650ilevel vs the person who takes anything and is already 665. just saying.

[olixobr]

Highmaul BiS Set
Head:Casque of the Iron Bomber
Neck:Ko'ragh's Family Locket
Shoulder:Uncrushable Shoulderplates
Cloak:Cloak of Ruminant Deception
Chest:Chestplate of Arcane Volatility
Belt:Fleshchewer Greatbelt
Legs:Legplates of Fractured Crystal
Feet:Mosscrusher Sabatons
Wrist:Bracers of Mirrored Flame
Hands:Gauntlets of the Heavy Hand
Ring 1:Grunt's Solid Signet
Ring 2:Timeless Solium Band of Brutality
Trinket 1:Tectus' Beating Heart
Trinket 2:Bottle of Infesting Spores
Weapon:Gar'tash, Hammer of the Breakers

How is the bis list before blackrock foundry release? This above is still the best or something changed?
And about darkmoon trinket?
sorry for my english. ty!

[Monolith of Mazes]

In the APL:
9 TV/FV (CD|Exec) Templar's Verdict / Final Verdict Cast during cooldowns, or execute range

This used to Read DP TV/FV. Is that a typo?

[Solsacra]

The original implementation of DP in that position was a flub on my part, so it's been changed to correct that. The simcraft change will come with the next release.

How is the bis list before blackrock foundry release? This above is still the best or something changed?
And about darkmoon trinket?
sorry for my english. ty!

It might not be the best now, that set is old, i'll get it updated soon enough.

[Deleted]

Hey there, first of all awesome thread. I played a few weeks now and wondering about a few things:

1. About the rotation in the OP, is the following Rota in fact Optimal:
ES> DS if FV Buff+Divine Crusader Perk> FV @5HP> HoW > CS > Exo > TV @ 3-4HP
I am just wondering if the EmpDS are still so strong (at least it feels like it). In AOE Scenarios, do you alternate between FV/DS in order to get buffed DS´s going?

2. How large is the difference between Seraphim and FV in practice? From a first comparison it is pretty even with Sera pullin ahead on a per Fight comparison (especially in Single Target Boss scenarios with optimal Burst lined up)

Cant wait for your replies! Regards

[Maegor]

Hey there, first of all awesome thread. I played a few weeks now and wondering about a few things:

1. About the rotation in the OP, is the following Rota in fact Optimal:
ES> DS if FV Buff+Divine Crusader Perk> FV @5HP> HoW > CS > Exo > TV @ 3-4HP
I am just wondering if the EmpDS are still so strong (at least it feels like it). In AOE Scenarios, do you alternate between FV/DS in order to get buffed DS´s going?


2. How large is the difference between Seraphim and FV in practice? From a first comparison it is pretty even with Sera pullin ahead on a per Fight comparison (especially in Single Target Boss scenarios with optimal Burst lined up)

Cant wait for your replies! Regards

1)yes that is "roughly" correct on the rotation. The list in the OP shows a few more of the nuances. Also, yes alternate FV/ds - this is what we are referring to when we talk about weaving.
Edit: you forgot J between CS and exo

2)the talents are roughly equal; the dps charts in OP show roughly 1% difference in ST. In straight ST seraphim will be winning at these ilvl's if you activate the buff on cd.

[Pheros]

Just for the sake of discussion, for those of us in guilds that will most likely not be doing much Mythic - which trinkets should we be pushing for? I realize that right now ilvl = upgrade, but I want to know what to be shooting for. Looks like the arena trinket will be pretty good...

I feel like this may have gotten missed, so adding on this page as well.

[Amil]

First of all, thank you Solsacra for the effort of putting this topic up, you're awesome.

It might not be the best now, that set is old, i'll get it updated soon enough.

I noticed that it's outdated when I put it together on wowhead and only has 300 mastery, I am searching for updates right now and will post it here if you want to use it.

EDIT:
I put together a set in which haste gets a little more under (but that can be corrected with enchants and/or with food), but other higher priority stats get bigger. *Transmog totally optional: (Since I am not allowed to post any links yet, go to wowhead and add this to the end of the URL /list=4683611/paladin-retribution-bis#0-highmaul-bis)

[Velshin]

Is it just me? or retri is shaping up to be one of the best single target damage dealer this patch content? specially when you get lucky streak with DP+ FV.

[Prag]

Is it just me? or retri is shaping up to be one of the best single target damage dealer this patch content? specially when you get lucky streak with DP+ FV.

Probably one of the best for AOE as well.