Will HotS succed - an in-depth look and a comparison to LoL

[Deleted]

I would like to start off by saying that I have been playing League of Legends for over 4 years now. I started playing back in 2010 when season 1 was about to end (and managed to reach gold in one week just before rewards were distributed). Recently I haven't been playing the game as much but my peek division in ranked was Diamond 2 so you could say that I know a thing or two.

Before you say that comparing the two is pointless - no it's not. As of right now, League is the most played game in the world and it pretty much defined the moba genre thus comparing it to HotS is completely natural and pivotal in determining its success.

I managed to get my hands on the technical alpha of Heroes about a week ago or so and been playing pretty much non stop. While the game has its issues and still needs quite a bit of work, I feel like Blizzard is taking the right direction with it because most important of all, the game is VERY fun to play. With that being said, fun does not necessarily mean simplistic. I saw many people complain that HotS is a casual game, far easier than LoL or DotA 2, that takes no skill whatsoever. That is far from true, it is a typical 'easy to get into and hard to master' type of game (and such games are the most successful ones if done right). I will elaborate on the matter in detail shortly.

Will this game be an e-sport? I've heard that question asked so many times. Blizzard is open to the idea and will let the players decide. I personally believe that this game will most definitely be an e-sport and will become as huge as DotA 2 or perhaps with time, even as huge as LoL. Whether I am right or not remains to be seen. Look at Hearthstone though - Blizzard was unsure of how well it would do, they knew that it might hit off and become quite popular but the game has surpassed everybody's expectations. Why is that so?

One needs to define what a game needs in order to be considered an e-sport. Yes, the game has to be competitive and potentially quite complex at a higher level of play - but it also needs to be easy to get into. Lets face it, top tier diamond/master/challenger players that play the game from 6 to 16 hours per day make up only a small portion of playerbase in LoL. Same goes for Hearthstone Legends or any higher ranked/pro players in any game for that matter. These players are a mere 1% or even less than that. LoL's main revenue comes from casuals that play the game just to have fun because they are THE majority. That is why games that strive to become an e-sport need to cater to the masses. If a game is easy to play and hard to master, these casuals might enjoy watching pros compete which would not be the case if the game was highly complex and hard/frustrating to get into. Remember, there is a big difference between a game being purely casual/simplistic and acessible (with potential depth)

Now, lets get into the gameplay of HotS. As I have stated before, the game is extremely fun to play. It is also very innovative and in respect to LoL, very much different. I belive that this is a good thing, innovation is good and besides, lets face it - some people are getting tired of playing the same game with one 5v5 map for 4 years (me being one of them).The first thing that you will notice is that unlike in LoL, you start the game with 4 abilities (by default Q,W,E and D). This adds a lot of dynamic and opens up the possibility of team fighting at very early levels. Later on as you level up in-game, you can choose between 6 abilities every 3 levels. Upon reaching level 10, you can choose between two ultimate abilities (by default R) - given that the XP is shared between all players in the team, reaching level 10 first will give you an immense advantage and will most likely force a team fight. The game is centered around fightning for objectives all over the map, farming lanes is secondary (there is no such thing as last hitting thus pushing the waves of cs onto towers is not necessarily a good idea simply because your opponent can stand behind his tower/gate and soak the xp for free). On the other hand, freezing a lane is not always a best idea either because it allows your opponent to roam around the map or take mercenaries camp (jungle monsters of sort, the difference being that after defeating them they will fight for your team and push one of the lanes). Map awarness and predictive power are absolutely crucial, even more so than in LoL (knowing where your opponent is and being able to anticipate his moves is going to give you a HUGE advantage). I don't understand why some people bash this game claiming that it is too easy. In my personal opinion, at higher level of play, this game is going to require more coordination and teamplay than both LoL and DotA. In LoL, the amount of potential strategies is in reality very limited – when picking a team comp, you can either focus on mid game power spike or heavy late game/wombo combo team fighting.

After the horrid laning phase (which FYI I was never a big fan of) ends, you can either contest for objectives such as blue/red buffs or dragon (and later on – baron). If your team is behind, you may try to split push and outrotate your opponent – that is pretty much it. The worst thing about League is that if you lose the said lanining phase and/or fall behind in mid game team fights, you can very often determine the victor. It is very hard to come back with gold defict of 5k+, even if you outplay the enemy team (depending on the stage of the game that is). What I love about HotS is that you can make a come back very easily if you outplay your opponent. Because of lack of items in the game, you can't get ahead so much and have to constantly stay focused on the objectives and keep on playing equally good throughout the entire match. This opens up the possibility of miraculous turn arounds that are going to be very entertaining to watch. Also, from what little I played, I can see countless more potential strategies to win. In other MOBAs you can carry your teammates to victory by farming on your own and winning your lane - in HotS, such a thing will be impossible. Without constant, proper coordination with your team, you are bound to lose. The next big difference are maps – unlike in LoL, there are FIVE different 5v5 maps (and more are continuously added and I assume that we are bound to see at least one more map before the game is released). The maps feel same in a way but each require a different approach and strategy. In League, I never understood the point of introducing game modes such as dominion or the howling abyss (or even twisted treeline). I suppose that it is fun to play these different game modes from time to time but if you compare the amount of games played on summoner's rift to the other two, the latter is insubstantial. Wouldn't it be better for Riot to focus on classic 5v5 game mode and introduce one or two different variations of summoners rift? I understand that balancing is an issue here but one that can be overcome if resources were not wasted on all the other game modes. I really dig the idea of 5 different game modes and love Blizzard's approach.

While I very much enjoyed playing LoL for all these years, the time has come to turn over a new leaf and try something fresh. I gave League a go yesterday and after spending some time in HotS, I must say that the latter is so much more fun to play that I doubt that I am going to play another LoL game any time soon. I saw every Season 4 World Championship match and I admit that watching LoL at highest level of play is still a very fun experience – that is why I can't contain my excitment when I think of all that is ahead of us with Heroes of the Storm.

[Tziva]

It's interesting to hear the thoughts of a serious league player, but I think I still feel that a comparison to League isn't going to predict the game's success.

Part of this is because we have no way of knowing if its differences will end up hurting or helping the game. Being too similar to League is unlikely to draw people in; why play the knockoff when you can play the original that millions of people already play? But being too different can hurt too, as people who really like the genre will probably the changes to their dissatisfaction.

For example, I personally dislike items; it's a big reason why I dislike the genre. I think they are cumbersome, I think it is artificial complication that isn't very compelling. However, the lack of items is probably the #1 reason why established moba players tend to dislike Heroes, as they like the depth that items bring to the table. The same can be said of things like last hit or shared XP: some people find those things very attractive, while others find them displeasing.

We can analyze the similarities and differences 'til we're blue in the face, but until we know whether those things are going to work in the favour of Heroes or against it, I'm not sure there's much we can safely conclude.

That's not to say it's not interesting to talk about, though!

[zehzao]

You're the first one i see that played LoL/DotA in a more "serious" way and enjoyed HotS, out of my full group we have 2 that enjoyed (me and my wife), most of the others completely hated and a couple are like "well, w/e".

I sill think it can be that game we all go to when we're tired of our main game, but i really dont see HotS getting even close to dota2/lol. (this one is just my opinion tho).

[Ausr]

I can agree with the OP about being able to turn games around when you're 3 levels down compared to being down kills/gold in LoL. Experienced some myself and it's just an amazing feeling when you can turn certain defeat into a 3 level advantage win.

[apepi]

I can see it much easier to get into rather than Lol. I mean besides talent gating and gold making takes too long. Both can be fixed easily though, maybe by making talent gaters only fight other talent gaters, and by either make heroes cheaper or gain more gold.

I am relatively a new moba player(but I was every high rated in wow), I actually have played more Heroes of the Storm more than I have played LoL. Heroes is much more faced paced than LoL, the games feel faster and the maps are smaller(with mounts especially). Besides talent gating it is very easy just to play a game, in League you might have to pull up a guide to play a new hero but in HotS you can just play one and see how things first. It has a much getter ease of access than other mobas.

Another things that it has going for it is that Blizzard is not afraid to try new things. Like lets take Abathur for example, he is one of the most unique hero I have seen in a moba game, I have not found one like him in LoL and is quite my favorite. Another things is that there is more than one map, this can help people getting tired of playing the game(though it is possible it might be harder to balance, we will see).

I don't see this game meant to attract the LoL/Dota audience. Though a few of their audience over laps, this game is to attract people who have not played a moba before, like Hearthstone was to attract people who have not played a card game before. I think this will not hurt LoL/Dota but help them by having Blizzard introduce more audience to the genre and people will want to see what else is in the genre wanting more.

Will this game turn into a esports? Well, it is possible. Blizzard has been willing to push their games into esports, a huge part of esports is not the game itself but the companies themselves pushing their game into one. Like for example lets look at Riot, they help their players from different regions get visa's in that country to be able to compete, they throw away a lot of money make a tournament possible, even though it does not get money from that(Blizzard does this with Blizcon) and offering a good prizepool for the winners, though they do not initially get money from it it really helps their advertising. Making a game sport is more of how you back than the game itself, lets take a look at some other sports soccer(or futbol) for example, the game hardly changes at all. That is because it is a perfect game, but because the backing behind it is so great and because the game is so 'stable' that what you see is what you get.

It could be a great game if they just do some small things and people are willing to see things differently. This game is not LoL or Dota so don't expect it to, you don't want the same game would you? But that does not mean that blizzard can not take and learn from those games.

Crap this post ended up really long, hopefully it was worth it.

[Rooskie1993]

I have around 3300+ hours on dota 2 and played a lot of dota 1 and I just got the alpha yesterday so did a few friends who I play dota with and we all enjoy HoTS so far, there are a few things they could improve on like how much gold you get etc, I personally don't like the idea of grinding for heroes in a moba.

[Rucati]

I have around 3300+ hours on dota 2 and played a lot of dota 1 and I just got the alpha yesterday so did a few friends who I play dota with and we all enjoy HoTS so far, there are a few things they could improve on like how much gold you get etc, I personally don't like the idea of grinding for heroes in a moba.

Yeah this has been my thought so far. It's fun, and it's in a way more team oriented than DotA/LoL, but it's not particularly complex. That's of course good for new players, and as such the game will probably do well, but the simplicity mixed with the fact that you need to unlock the heroes puts me off. Same reason I very rarely play LoL, don't really want to play a game where I need to unlock all the characters, especially since some will never be truly balanced and if you buy one and then he gets nerfed into the ground you just wasted your gold/cash, better luck next time.

Do I think HotS will succeed? Yes, probably at a casual level. I don't think it'll be a competitive game though. And I don't really think it'll pull people away from DotA2/LoL. Guess time will tell though, but Blizzard doesn't have the best track record with competitive games. WoW 3s has been dead for a while now, although it's sort of trying to make a comeback. Starcraft 2 was big for a little while but it's also died way down. Hearthstone is pretty active right now, but it's entirely possibly it'll be dead in a year (from a competitive sense, not the game itself). I suspect HotS will have some tournaments, for example I think at Blizzcon 2015 they'll have a HotS tournament (assuming it goes into beta in early 2015), but I don't think it'll be nearly as big as other games.

[Rafoel]

" League is the most played game in the world"

False. Most mobile games are played by higher amounts of people. Heck, even Hearthstone right now has probably more accounts than LoL. Not even mentioning Angry Birds of Farmville.

Oh, but these are not "real" gamers and "real" games? Guess what, for me the LoL gamers are not real gamers too, at least the vast majority of them. That game requires no time investment, you don't progress by playing longer, it's basically a definition of casuality. My brother made around 5-6 LoL accounts (and they all count for the huge "player number", yet now he logs in once per week on 1 account only. Is this gaming? Or is this simply entertainment? There is a border.

[apepi]

....wat?

This reminds me of a post I saw the other day claiming that fighting games were "casual" because you couldn't "level up" and get stronger attacks and such by playing a lot. /facepalm

I shouldn't expect much from an MMO community in this regard, though.

But you do level up in two ways or thre with both of these mobas...

[deragot7]

I will just link what i already posted in one other thread:

LoL clones will be dead by defaut just like WoW's are.The two games are very simmilar.They came in the perfect time and moment when their model was a hit and worked perfectly.I doubt that HotS can copy any of it.
No working adult has time to grind this game full hero roster in a matter of weeks. It's gonna take months,it took me 3 years for LoL.
So why make playerbase suffer the same endless grind as LoL did?

So what if HotS is still in Alpha stage?Look what is the game against and what concurents it has to face:

http://www.pcgamer.com/league-of-leg...otransactions/
This article shows that in 2013 Riot made ''only'' 624$ millions and were 2nd in the top 10.In 2014 Riot made almost 1$ billion and took the 1st place in top 10.I also want to point that Hearthstone made only 114$ millions.So i don't want to hear from anyone how successfull is that game.I don't know why people love to bring it in discussions.
Being in Alpha/Beta has its advantages and Blizzard are not using them.They are not selling any access to the game.They just give limited random codes.

http://www.lazygamer.net/general-new...d-tournaments/
This articles shows how much more proffitable are Dota 2 tournoments than LoL's.Dota 2 players make more money from the tournoments compared to their LoL equivalents.LoL Proffessionals are on a monthly salary plus they earn money from Riot tournoments.
I don't see none of these to be possible in HotS after the game is released to the public.Blizzard doesn't care enought about its e-sport scene.

http://www.lazygamer.net/general-new...y-the-numbers/
This article shows how big are LoL's and Dota 2's player base.
At this moment in HotS the learning barrier curve and is very low.There will always be competitive players that will crush casuals without mercy and lowering the skill further will make the game so casual that (competitive players and good ones that don't suck) can barely differentiate themselves from a newbie with the limited mechanics they can utilize.

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments
Here is shown a list of prise pools and games.It s indication how much better is the e-sport scene of some games than others.For instance look how far down is SC2 and how even combined it's prises are nowhere near the number the best 2 games have.Or how Hearstone is not even in that list?That says something about how blizzard ''supports'' their e-sport scene.

Blizzard isn't listening to its playerbase. They would have probably kept the Artifacts if it wasn't totalbiscuit to make video of it. Just look at talent gating. Nobody likes it and it's still there, just because some "pro"-youtuber isn't making video to express their opinion about it.

So yea i say it again.It does't matter that this is still Alpha.The game is ready to go in closed beta and blizzard has huge competition against them.Valve's International plus Dota 2's e-sport scene are to big with a lot and huge price pools.
The other enormous game is LoL with huge playerbase that is supporting it.
Hots is entering relly concurent market.If it keeps the current awfull ''F2P''(p2p)model it has,then the game won't survive long.It may attrack players but they won't stay for long.

Also for now the game is just not good enough to be broadcasted as an e-sport.The reason sports are watched is because your average viewers will never achieve the physical fitness of the pro players so it is fun for them to watch pro players doing things they can't do. It also applies to esports. Dota has higher percentage of the playerbase watching competitive games compare to LoL simply because watching pro players pulling off strats and tactics that ordinary players can't do is fun. The more dumb down the game, the less impressive things pro players can pull off because your average player can already do that in a slightly worse manner.

For now i compare Hots to GW2.They both are just not intriguing enought for the viwer. Guild wars 2 PvP is one of the most dumbed down games I have ever played and a lot of people agree with that opinion. Gw2 has "pro" teams, it has tournaments, arenanet even throws thousands of dollars at it. It dosnt matter. No one considers that game an esport, people have to want to watch it. Who wants to watch hots esports where people run around in a 5 man ball for 20 minutes and teamfight.

On twitch Dota and LoL don't move from the top 3.Hots is far behind on 32nd place.I doubt the game will be in the top 10 even when it is released.Someone may say - Hots is in alpha.
My answer is.Streamers want to stream games that are actually liked and that have sponsored tournaments to gain viewers. Hots was #1 for 2 weeks straight when it first came out, after that the top streamers stopped streaming so they could go back to the usual streams they provide and the game fell down to 32nd place.

[Scandral]

Would you compare Street Fighter or Marvel V Capcom to Super Smash Bros? It's not your conventional MOBA and it has a lot more flexibility for creative ideas to keep the game different and interesting. It's less toxic because you deal with 4 other "idiots" instead of 9 since it doesn't have All chat, and you actually get to choose your hero before queuing so you actually get to play what you want to play. My only issues with the game is Talent Gating and Hero pricing, both of which are outrageous, but maybe they're both there to make sure testers don't have too much of a headstart when the game hits Beta.

Heroes has way too many advantages to call it dead on arrival, but Heroes is also missing elements keeping it from being elevated to League/Dota popularity. There still needs to be some sort of system put in place to measure yourself and see how you're progressing. XP contribution can only do so much.

I will just link what i already posted in one other thread:

You do realize that out of Riot/Valve/Blizzard, Blizzard is the one that loses the most money supporting eSports right? While Riot makes $1 billion a year on microtransactions and Valve makes ~$200 million, Blizzard makes virtually nothing on Starcraft 2 since there's no microtransactions in SC2. Not sure how Heart of the Swarm sold, but it was definitely not $200 million this year, and it certainly hasn't reached that mark in the year and a half it's been out.

And using Twitch numbers as a way to gauge interest for the game is a horrible thing to do, considering when Dota 2 was in beta it was getting pretty pedestrian viewership as well IIRC. I find it very difficult to use that as a point when the player pool is so, so limited.

But that's something that I think Blizzard dropped the ball on. In my circle of friends, I was the only person to actually get a alpha invite. This game relies heavily on team work, and not having someone to play with and enduring solo queue was a dreadful experience that I'm sure many other players had to deal with.

[Nikkaszal]

When discussing whether or not a game will make it onto the scene, the most important aspect is - "Is this game entertaining for the viewers?"

The answer is a definitive yes. As MOBAs go, it's very fast paced with a LOT or objectives. The action happens early and there is VERY little downtime.

That is enough to push it into eSport-worthy status

[Eats Compost]

I predict that HotS will be quite successful. Just how much attention the game has now is largely irrelevant, as there are only so many players with access and it's in an alpha stage.

The big thing about HotS is that it's very easy to just pick up and play. It has shorter games with less time investment and one-sided steamrolls that still take 20-40 minutes to complete are uncommon. Mistakes, while still having an impact, generally matter less and the game has a much more relaxed atmosphere. Loads of people that are somewhat intimidated or disgruntled by the LoL/Dota 2 structure will find themselves comfortably at home with HotS, and it manages to do this without totally destroying the competitiveness. I still regard Dota 2 as the king of competitive gameplay between the three (by a large margin at that), but I've been playing way more HotS just because it's so easy to play a game whenever.

Big things reliably happening from the get-go is also a boon. A robust spectator system for all matches currently going (in the style of Dota 2's) would be fantastic, and I'd happily just use the client to spectate random games in that way. It goes without saying that spectating professional matches should be at least somewhat interesting as well. The specialists also create some nice asymmetrical gameplay, which is something I personally love and serves as the opposite of something like the LoL meta.

Add a dash of Blizzard cross-promotion (free advertising to the entire playerbase of every other Blizzard game is nothing to scoff at) and you've got yourself a recipe for at least a modest success once it's out of alpha.

[apepi]

Would you compare Street Fighter or Marvel V Capcom to Super Smash Bros? It's not your conventional MOBA and it has a lot more flexibility for creative ideas to keep the game different and interesting. It's less toxic because you deal with 4 other "idiots" instead of 9 since it doesn't have All chat, and you actually get to choose your hero before queuing so you actually get to play what you want to play. My only issues with the game is Talent Gating and Hero pricing, both of which are outrageous, but maybe they're both there to make sure testers don't have too much of a headstart when the game hits Beta.

Heroes has way too many advantages to call it dead on arrival, but Heroes is also missing elements keeping it from being elevated to League/Dota popularity. There still needs to be some sort of system put in place to measure yourself and see how you're progressing. XP contribution can only do so much.



You do realize that out of Riot/Valve/Blizzard, Blizzard is the one that loses the most money supporting eSports right? While Riot makes $1 billion a year on microtransactions and Valve makes ~$200 million, Blizzard makes virtually nothing on Starcraft 2 since there's no microtransactions in SC2. Not sure how Heart of the Swarm sold, but it was definitely not $200 million this year, and it certainly hasn't reached that mark in the year and a half it's been out.

And using Twitch numbers as a way to gauge interest for the game is a horrible thing to do, considering when Dota 2 was in beta it was getting pretty pedestrian viewership as well IIRC. I find it very difficult to use that as a point when the player pool is so, so limited.

But that's something that I think Blizzard dropped the ball on. In my circle of friends, I was the only person to actually get a alpha invite. This game relies heavily on team work, and not having someone to play with and enduring solo queue was a dreadful experience that I'm sure many other players had to deal with.

I actually think it does have all chat? I have seen it used once. And LoL does not get any money from esports either.

[Nikkaszal]

On the note of Starcraft "profitability" - it doesn't NEED microtransactions to make it a worthwhile investment, due to Blizzard pulling in obscene amounts of money from WoW and Hearthstone.

On the flipside, LoL is Riot's primary source of income.

[apepi]

On the flipside, LoL is Riot's primary source of income.

Yes, but they do not gain money from the tournaments themselves, it just serves as a huge advertisement.It is like Blizcon.

[Scandral]

I actually think it does have all chat? I have seen it used once. And LoL does not get any money from esports either.

There's no way to talk to the other teams except for emotes, which they added in a recent patch.

And no one directly gets money from eSports. Blizzard just loses money from supporting it because SC2 doesn't have the cash flow the other games have, which results in lower tournament prize pools.

On the note of Starcraft "profitability" - it doesn't NEED microtransactions to make it a worthwhile investment, due to Blizzard pulling in obscene amounts of money from WoW and Hearthstone.

Valve got it right with CSGO. I'd love to see SC2 adopt the CSGO model. Cheap game to buy that comes with a system of silly cosmetics you can purchase. I think we've entered a time where competitive games need that system for supporting the scene so that players can live off of being a full time player.

[Deleted]

Short answer : Yes

[Museigen]

I'd really prefer not to adapt to the general micro-transaction model. The reason LoL and DotA are popular is because they are free, being free allowed them to get a playerbase which then expanded based on it being free, rather disconnected from them being a decent games from a design perspective. Beyond that, LoL and DotA are 30 minute "Competitive PvE farming" games that end with 1-2 team fights to decide the game, can you possibly get more boring if you tried? I'm willing to accept I might be in the minority here but this feels like the WoW world PvP group, which is 9/10 max levels ganking low levels or many max levels gang'ing up on on one max level. People want artificial advantages to secure their wins rather than actually being competitive, which is directly contrary to the "Competitive" scene of the games.

Again, I may just be in the minority, but can't there be a game out there that isn't popular based on artificial gating, real money or just general boring ass farming? Oh we have 1,000 heroes and 10,000 items, but only ~20 heroes and ~30 items are actually useful...the rest are there just to make it appear to have choices. /rant

Being different from LoL and DotA is a good thing, even if it kills the game, at least it died trying to do a good thing rather than just subjugating itself to the mediocrity that is the current gaming industry. Maybe I'm just that, "Get off ma lawn!" old man at this point in time, which means I need a new hobby.

[Kaleredar]

I'd really prefer not to adapt to the general micro-transaction model. The reason LoL and DotA are popular is because they are free, being free allowed them to get a playerbase which then expanded based on it being free, rather disconnected from them being a decent games from a design perspective. Beyond that, LoL and DotA are 30 minute "Competitive PvE farming" games that end with 1-2 team fights to decide the game, can you possibly get more boring if you tried? I'm willing to accept I might be in the minority here but this feels like the WoW world PvP group, which is 9/10 max levels ganking low levels or many max levels gang'ing up on on one max level. People want artificial advantages to secure their wins rather than actually being competitive, which is directly contrary to the "Competitive" scene of the games.

Again, I may just be in the minority, but can't there be a game out there that isn't popular based on artificial gating, real money or just general boring ass farming? Oh we have 1,000 heroes and 10,000 items, but only ~20 heroes and ~30 items are actually useful...the rest are there just to make it appear to have choices. /rant

Being different from LoL and DotA is a good thing, even if it kills the game, at least it died trying to do a good thing rather than just subjugating itself to the mediocrity that is the current gaming industry. Maybe I'm just that, "Get off ma lawn!" old man at this point in time, which means I need a new hobby.

All heroes in heroes of the storm are "viable" for casual play, and there are no items in the game.

The rest of what you're talking about really isn't applicable at all. Heroes of the Storm is free to play, as is LoL... you can always play the heroes on free rotation, or buy heroes you want with in-game gold, which is not particularly difficult to earn.