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  1. #521
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Killface1 View Post
    So like, Blizzard is all about talent choices right? They felt there was a little bit too much bloat with all of the talents, and so they went to a 6 tier 1/3 choice per tier. I like that. And they did a nice job for the most part of keeping similar talents or things you might want on the same tree, so that you had some real choices to make. Do you want single target or AoE? Do you want to break your own cc's, or do you want to be able to stun others? But here's the problem: Mannoroths fury is completely worthless now, and KJC was worthless earlier. It doesn't really seem fair. So I think my proposal to Blizzard will be supported by the lock community and is in the best interest of locks everywhere: Nerf Archimonds Darkness to a 5% crit buff. It hardly seems fair to have one mediocre talent sitting with two terrible talents, making such an obvious choice. The only way to save locks everywhere right now is to nerf AD across the board. I shall send Blizzard, and my congressmen a sternly worded letter in hopes of a positive change.
    that doesnt make much sense tbh, nerfing a talent that works down to 2 talents that doesnt work, seems a bit counter productive to me. what i feel they could do now that they have removed the ember generation from RoF, is to make mannoroth's fury into mainly an ember generator, so that it causes RoF to generate 1 ember pr tick pr target hit and twice that on crits for 10 secs, ofc removing the increases aoe range and halving the increased dmg buff, that will make it very strong in conjunction with CR for aoe CB spamming but alright for ST and then just further reduce the cd on kjc for destro, so you have a clear cut option for ST in Dserv+AD, for AoE in MF+CR and heavy movement fights in kjc+Dserv. ofc the problem with cataclysm still remains tho but i can see it being quite good on multitarget fights on occasion.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Kromus View Post
    So I'm not sure if the changes were live last night when I was playing (EU) but I noticed my AoE damage absolutely stank in heroics using my normal stuff, mainly being MF and RoF. I was ROCK bottom during trash packs and was barely breaking 10k, it was embarrasing.

    After a few packs I changed from MF/Servitude to AD/Cataclysm. Major improvement.

    I'd only started putting in the Shadowburn + Havoc spam yesterday, but I was comfortably top of the meters for the rest of the fight.

    My DPS on Single Target bosses was also noticably higher then it had been over the course of the last five days.

    I'm going to stick with AD/Cata for now, while I wait to see if there is any tangible data advising otherwise.

    Heroic dungeons is where I'm at while waiting on raiding (not even bothering with CM's) so need to burn down trash quickly and do decent on bosses, which on last nights evidence I seem to be doing.

    VERY interested to see how Demo ends up after this latest rounds of changes. My favourite spec and would drop Destro in a second if I could go back to it.
    After the nerfs i can say that i dont give two shits about trash damage anymore. Even when I try I cant beat out the tank. I can beat out other dps (sometimes) but never the tank on trash. Single target its great. Trash, I am fine with giving other people their moment in the sun now lol.

  3. #523
    Since some people didn't get it, I was kidding. I think the level 90 warlock tier is an absolute fvcking mess and the fact that this change was implemented in live blows my damn mind, when it would have made so much more sense to simply make it not generate embers on <3 targets.

    But whatever. It's live now. It is what it is and I'm going to deal with it the best I can. So I have a few questions:

    Previously, our stats were simming like this:

    ST:
    Int
    SP
    Crit
    Multi
    Haste
    Vers
    Mastery

    at 5+ targets, that changed to
    Int
    SP
    Mastery
    Haste
    Crit
    Vers

    having not run the sims, with no time to in the next few days, I imagine that means that mastery is now our absolute worst stat in all situations because if you ever plan on doing your regular AoE rotation you can gtfo. I assume we now run charred remains if there are consistently going to be 5+ targets, and cataclysm and havoc will be our only "AoE" otherwise. As such, it seems like crit/haste is going to be the gear were looking for even for AoE because we'll be forced into taking CR, no?

  4. #524
    Confusing changes, do we still spec supremacy or go sacrifice now? Wouldn't mind the latter, I hate pets.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Killface1 View Post
    having not run the sims, with no time to in the next few days, I imagine that means that mastery is now our absolute worst stat in all situations because if you ever plan on doing your regular AoE rotation you can gtfo. I assume we now run charred remains if there are consistently going to be 5+ targets, and cataclysm and havoc will be our only "AoE" otherwise. As such, it seems like crit/haste is going to be the gear were looking for even for AoE because we'll be forced into taking CR, no?
    Assuming the sims I ran on my warlock (645 ilvl, link in sig) are correct my stat weights are currently:

    GoSup/DemServ: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Haste > Vers > Mastery || 19,480DPS
    GoSac/Cataclysm: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Mastery > Haste ~= Vers || 17,871DPS

    Keep in mind this is still casting Rain of Fire in my single target rotation (on that sim) - working on fixing that. Funny to see mastery fall so low tbh.


    edit:

    Simcraft with updated (thank you Ghaddo)

    These are what I get for my warlock.

    Destro GoSup/DemServ: http://i.imgur.com/wriif9h.png
    Destro GoSac/Cataclysm: http://i.imgur.com/yPmE7EF.png
    Destro GoSac/CharRemain: http://i.imgur.com/fIgY2G9.png
    Destro GoSup/CharRemain: http://i.imgur.com/GpAWEGy.png
    Last edited by Novx; 2014-11-26 at 06:17 PM.

  6. #526
    So basically the 2 most boring talents (which provide nothing but passive dps increase) give the highest dps. What about GoSup & cataclysm, that's how I'm specced atm.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    So basically the 2 most boring talents (which provide nothing but passive dps increase) give the highest dps. What about GoSup & cataclysm, that's how I'm specced atm.
    GoSup/Cataclysm: http://i.imgur.com/UhCJQ9w.png

    Well...my mind is blown. Somehow that is my 2nd best single target build >_>

  8. #528
    Deleted
    It's a huge shock to see that the more Passive we get in the game... the more rewarding it is.

    Like skill and timing are non-existent.

  9. #529
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagerinsho View Post
    It's a huge shock to see that the more Passive we get in the game... the more rewarding it is.

    Like skill and timing are non-existent.
    And basically the complete opposite of what Ion (I believe it was him) said at blizzcon, that passive talents would probably be options for people to pick for an easier rotation, while active talents would provide more dps since they required more effort - that the talent system could function as an "opt in" for a slightly harder, more rewarding rotation.

    Can't say I'm hugely shocked though. I like the new talent system, I've applauded the change over the old once since it was first implemented, but it's always struggled to deliver on the fantasy of meaningful choices, especially the warlock's dreaded lvl 90 and now arguably worse lvl 100 tiers.
    Last edited by mmoc1571eb5575; 2014-11-26 at 07:44 PM.

  10. #530
    I ran a HC dungeon (Everbloom) with gosup/AD/demserv and on the first boss (tree one) I stayed purely single target and only had to side step out of ground AoE a few times and with ilvl 629 I pulled 23k (with dungeon 15% buff) that does seem better than before the tuning. On trash with 4 embers I managed about 7 F&B before having to go single target again, it didn't feel as bad as I was expecting. I'm just glad RoF is not part of our ST rotation but I do miss it for AoE.
    Battletag: Chris#23952 (EU)
    Warlock

  11. #531
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    You write off Charred Remains too fast... It's scaling is pretty insane, at Mythic gear levels it's much closer to other options than you think and the AoE and cleaving it gives is superior as well. For example already at heroic/mythic mix levels it overtakes Cataclysm as ST option especially if you enchant and gear mastery.

    Now it's like 10% lower on pure ST, but it's superior in just about anything else. At Mythic gear it's about 6% lower at pure ST, but again - everything else besides ST is much better. I'd say it makes it a preferred spec of choice for me, really.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Novx View Post
    Assuming the sims I ran on my warlock (645 ilvl, link in sig) are correct my stat weights are currently:

    GoSup/DemServ: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Haste > Vers > Mastery || 19,480DPS
    GoSac/Cataclysm: Int > SP > Crit > Mult > Mastery > Haste ~= Vers || 17,871DPS

    Keep in mind this is still casting Rain of Fire in my single target rotation (on that sim) - working on fixing that. Funny to see mastery fall so low tbh.


    edit:

    Simcraft with updated (thank you Ghaddo)

    These are what I get for my warlock.

    Destro GoSup/DemServ: http://i.imgur.com/wriif9h.png
    Destro GoSac/Cataclysm: http://i.imgur.com/yPmE7EF.png
    Destro GoSac/CharRemain: http://i.imgur.com/fIgY2G9.png
    Destro GoSup/CharRemain: http://i.imgur.com/GpAWEGy.png
    I think you have to be careful about your stat weights. Your profile, you're actually carrying quite a bit of mastery already. Now, I'm not entirely sure how the sim model works (internally, and how it actually determines the stat weights).

    The way I think it works is the comparative addition or subtraction of stats to your profile, then re-simming that result (but I'm not sure). By this, I mean it adds more mastery to your profile dynamically by reducing one of the other stats (at least that's how it should do it...). So, in your case, the model is able to find room to add more crit at the expense of your mastery (does it do this???, I have no idea), which would suggest to me that is why it's favouring mastery so little.

    Mastery buffs the FnB spells, and since you're looking only at single target, I wouldn't suggest dumping much mastery at all.

    Anyway....

  13. #533
    So basically the 2 most boring talents (which provide nothing but passive dps increase) give the highest dps. What about GoSup & cataclysm, that's how I'm specced atm.
    Seems to be second best, as Novx demonstrated. And it doesn't seem to be that far away from GoSup and Servitude which appears to be simming highest for me. It's about a 700 dps loss in sims between the two. Seems worth it to just go GoSup and Cata for that burst aoe damage, with our aoe being such piss with GoSup and Servitude.

    But charred remains is a huge dps loss in single target no matter how you deal with the talents it seems. Nearly 2000 below GS/Serv for me. That may change with gear scaling though.

  14. #534
    The other weakness of gosac CR is how hard it gets hit by movement. I still see it as a good scaling option that itemizes well with a demo build.

  15. #535
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The other weakness of gosac CR is how hard it gets hit by movement. I still see it as a good scaling option that itemizes well with a demo build.
    GoSac+CR feels like a Turret, punished very hard for moving, since you are usually midway casting a CB when you have to move asap. The 1st boss in the Train instance was horrible...

    Do not have simcraft (does not work for some reason), thanks for the links

    Did some 10 min single target tests at my training dummys with my shitty gear (~630)
    GoSac+CR was about 10k dps
    GoSup+DS was about 12k dps

    no RoF and i still had to struggle with getting oom, only 10% crit punishes me really hard

    guess i have to stick with a pet until i reach a good amount of ilvl's to push GoSac+CR dmg

  16. #536
    The Patient Kromus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novx View Post
    GoSup/Cataclysm: http://i.imgur.com/UhCJQ9w.png

    Well...my mind is blown. Somehow that is my 2nd best single target build >_>
    That's my build at the moment and about the same stat prioirty I have at 630ilvl. Ran a few heroics last night since the updates and was comfortably top of meters single target, and now employing shadowburn/havoc correctly was doing really well on aoe. But it was just number bumping if you get what I mean. Like I'd get 30-35k on trash packs, but it was during a shadowburn spamming phase. Other classes providing much more sustained aoe.

  17. #537
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eierdotter View Post
    Guess i have to stick with a pet until i reach a good amount of ilvl's to push GoSac+CR dmg
    I decided to fully transition to GoSac + CR already, it is only behind on pure Single Target really, the moment you can cleave GoSac pulls ahead and the moment you can AoE - CR fully kicks in.

    If the current iteration holds, by the time we start getting Mythic gear I expect it to be the used setup, since the gap between the cookie cutter ST Destruction setup and GoSac/CR shortens to about 5% difference assuming you gear Mastery/Crit, considering all the advantages of CR that gap is something I can reasonably sacrifice.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I decided to fully transition to GoSac + CR already, it is only behind on pure Single Target really, the moment you can cleave GoSac pulls ahead and the moment you can AoE - CR fully kicks in.

    If the current iteration holds, by the time we start getting Mythic gear I expect it to be the used setup, since the gap between the cookie cutter ST Destruction setup and GoSac/CR shortens to about 5% difference assuming you gear Mastery/Crit, considering all the advantages of CR that gap is something I can reasonably sacrifice.
    I've been messing around between GoSac/CR and Sup/DS builds and the former is a lot more fun while the latter only pulls ahead by a bit. The cleave with CR is incredible; the way we pull UBRS on CM is to pull like the first four rooms, lust, and burn. Doing this with CR is infinitely better than even Cataclysm I'd wager.

    Gear will make CR a lot more viable but I believe that the reduced damage should be 40%.

  19. #539
    High Overlord Cabbe's Avatar
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    I'm running GoSup + DemServ right now but I'm considering using dual spec to switch to another setup to use in-between bosses, for "trash-clearing", with AoE as the main priority. I'm leaning towards either GoSup + CharRem or GoSac + Cataclysm. They seem to be pretty even when it comes to single target damage but which one do you guys think would pull ahead in terms of "in-between bosses trash-clearing"?

  20. #540
    There have been so many hundreds of posts since the hotfixes so forgive me if it has been clearly said but can anyone say it really simply about how we should AoE now? Yes people have said take CR and GoSac but then what do we do? Is it the same rotation with CB now taking priority in FnB? Do we still use all spells when in FnB? With how many targets should we go to the AoE rotation? I've tried playing with it but so far my AoE is little past my ST dps with havoc cleaving. Thanks in advance for any help.

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