Kuni's WoD Frost Mage PVE Guide 6.2

[Frost1129]

Then you are doing it wrong.

[Arctagon]

It might be due to the short duration, but that I'm doing it wrong is also likely. I haven't played my mage since Cataclysm, so I'm as good as new to it. Haven't played as frost in PvE before, either.

This is how I open: Pre-cast Frostbolt -> Prismatic Crystal -> Frozen Orb -> Icy Veins + Ice Nova -> get rid of all the FoF procs with Ice Lance -> 2nd Ice Nova before PC ends -> WJ -> clear all FoF and BF procs before IV fades -> normal rotation

I use Water Jet as soon as it comes off cooldown unless Frozen Orb or any FoF procs are up, I make sure Ice Nova never caps on charges, I save all my Frozen Orb cooldowns for Prismatic Crystal, I try to generally waste as little FoF procs as possible, I try to get two Ice Novas in on Prismatic Crystal where I can, which ends up being approximately every other. Is anything of what I'm doing wrong?

I suppose there's also the chance that it's gear related. My gear is worse than shit.

[kirielle]

http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1110

^^^ a more in-depth writeup for frost mage rotation

Assuming that you PC on cooldown, you can always get in two Ice Novas on the crystal, and then two in between crystals, without ever capping Ice Nova. Also, as long as you are a decent amount of distance from the boss, it's better to fire Frozen Orb before PC since Frozen Orb has travel time.

I believe TV > PC on multi target fights regardless of gear level. Technically at your gear level Frost Bomb is probably better than Ice Nova as well in most situations, but it's more complex to play properly and something you probably need never learn since by the time you are comfortable with frost you will likely have tier/trinkets and can just play Unstable Magic.

[Arctagon]

I have already read that, but his Prismatic Crystal + Ice Nova cycle is wrong. Like I said two posts back, PC and IN don't really line up. Their cycle is 900 seconds long, which is longer than the vast majority of fights. IN comes off coldown at second 103 if you use it two GCDs after setting up PC during the opener like I currently do, and at that point PC has already been on cooldown for around 11 seconds (assuming you hold off on using it for two seconds to ensure you get a second IN in before it fades), unlike in the start. Which means you will end up capping on charges if you want to get two IN in during every PC.

[Deleted]

That guide gets needlessly messianic with the diagrams. It makes some sense to develop such guides. But after a point he's saying things that are common sense or could be summed up with a "don't keep it on 2 charges for long".

[Frost1129]

You would be amazed with how stupid some people can be. It's far better to be as clear as possible with a guide than to assume your reader knows anything at all.

[Arctagon]

So, judging by what I wrote earlier, am I doing it wrong?

[kirielle]

I have already read that, but his Prismatic Crystal + Ice Nova cycle is wrong. Like I said two posts back, PC and IN don't really line up. Their cycle is 900 seconds long, which is longer than the vast majority of fights. IN comes off coldown at second 103 if you use it two GCDs after setting up PC during the opener like I currently do, and at that point PC has already been on cooldown for around 11 seconds (assuming you hold off on using it for two seconds to ensure you get a second IN in before it fades), unlike in the start. Which means you will end up capping on charges if you want to get two IN in during every PC.

PC lasts for 12 seconds. Its cooldown is 90 seconds. You can reliably Ice Nova once at the beginning of your PC and once at the end every single time, using 2 charges in between crystals so as to never cap. This is shown in a very pretty diagram in the link I provided.

PC at 0 seconds --> Ice Nova at 1.5 seconds --> Ice Nova again before trinket effects expire --> PC expires at 12 seconds --> Ice Nova anywhere before 51.5 seconds --> Ice Nova again before capping --> PC at 90 seconds --> Ice Nova at 91.5 seconds --> charge is available at 101.5 seconds, before PC expires at 102 seconds --> repeat this cycle ad infinitum

Obviously if you are firing everything exactly on cooldown it doesn't give you much leeway, but reality is you will probably be delaying crystal slightly during fights anyway for optimal placement. As I mentioned before you should Orb before you PC, so there is no reason not to Ice Nova as your first GCD on the crystal (which is necessary if you do happen to do everything precisely on cooldown).

[Arctagon]

PC lasts for 12 seconds. Its cooldown is 90 seconds. You can reliably Ice Nova once at the beginning of your PC and once at the end every single time, using 2 charges in between crystals so as to never cap. This is shown in a very pretty diagram in the link I provided.

It is, but what the diagram doesn't mention is that, the only way that will work, is if one delays PC by ten seconds after the second usage, essentially making PC a 100 second cooldown, rather than 90. That doesn't line up with Icy Veins and pushes the usage of FO back even further. Is PC really that strong of a talent to outweigh all this DPS loss?

[Tyze]

Question about the tier set once again. Do you guys still go Frostbolt into Ice Lance or Frostbolt Fire Proc? Or do you "ignore" the frostbolt and just spam the procs? Because doing rotaion on the ptr feels like im missing alot of procs and it gets stressful to do Frostbolt before casting anything else

[kirielle]

It is, but what the diagram doesn't mention is that, the only way that will work, is if one delays PC by ten seconds after the second usage, essentially making PC a 100 second cooldown, rather than 90. That doesn't line up with Icy Veins and pushes the usage of FO back even further. Is PC really that strong of a talent to outweigh all this DPS loss?

This is plain wrong. I literally put the interval times in my post. Please re-read more carefully. I know you're thinking that gosh, 100/25=4 but that's not the way it works.

[Arctagon]

You did, for the first cycle. You will see that when you reach second 180, when the third PC will be ready to use, you will have around 21 seconds left until the second charge of Ice Nova comes off cooldown. One has two choices at this point if one wants to include a second Ice Nova during PC, and two choices only, and that's either to cast Ice Nova one time less after the last PC, which leads to Ice Nova staying capped for five seconds, or to delay PC by ten seconds in order to make sure the second charge of Ice Nova comes off cooldown right before the crystal disappears. Only the latter option adheres to the practise of casting Ice Nova twice between each PC. There is no other option.

[Oziemaster]

New to mage in general and looking to gear it up for some raiding. Really enjoy all 3 specs currently. Arcane being the huge single target, Fire being the cleave/aoe and also good at single target. But, what is Frost's purpose? If it's cleave wouldn't fire be better at that while also being better at AoE? And if it's single target just go Arcane. Just trying to find out the purpose of Frost.

[isRobin]

New to mage in general and looking to gear it up for some raiding. Really enjoy all 3 specs currently. Arcane being the huge single target, Fire being the cleave/aoe and also good at single target. But, what is Frost's purpose? If it's cleave wouldn't fire be better at that while also being better at AoE? And if it's single target just go Arcane. Just trying to find out the purpose of Frost.

Frost is the most forgiving spec in terms of rotation. It is based on procs but it is not as RNG as fire. And it is not as crucial of a rotation as arcane. Frost will beat fire out on 2 target aoe I believe. I forget honestly. Fire is sustained cleave with the occasional combust. Where as frost 30-40% of its damage can hit 2 targets.

[Deleted]

Frost is the cleave-1-extra one. AOE in mass numbers is fire. Arcane is single.


Of course all that is a bit hazy lately because of PoF and some unintended shenanigans with the end-game gearing of Fire, but in general terms that's how it is. Main exceptions are related to utility, e.g. needing interrupts, or more short term burst from arcane, or being bored and trying fire or the fight is only 1 minute because your guild has ilevel 999 so you can play whatever gives the best in 10 sec.

[darkblitzrc]

how come in most hfc fights u cant stand still and this guide tells me to use rune of power? help

[Keiyra]

how come in most hfc fights u cant stand still and this guide tells me to use rune of power? help

For most of the fights, proper placement of your runes means that you rarely loose the buff while moving for mechanics (maybe you need more practice with placements). For the fights where there really is a lot of movement, use Incanters. Or just use incanters all the time if you don't want to deal with the hassle of rune - it's only a small loss.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Glyph of Icy Veins is currently mandatory. It also has a hidden 20% modifier to Fingers of Frost generation from Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt to make up for the slower cast speeds. 15% to 18% isn't huge, it just keeps it equal.

Thought this wasn't true?

[Deleted]

Thought this wasn't true?

What part?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Thought this wasn't true?

Wasn't removed as far as I'm aware.