Mythic Garrosh Issues.

[Deja Thoris]

Except when your 80% test person would have failed anything that required 81% or greater, such as maintaining a certain GPA for scholarships or avoiding academic probation. That was my point with that comment. Comparing to the entire playerbase doesn't really mean much when the majority of the playerbase is very casual in terms of performance, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

You'd be better off comparing yourself to everyone else on a boss by boss basis as able by achievement dates so as to account for hotfix boss adjustments. This excludes nearly all pre-Mythic stuff in SoO since there are no achievements for non-Mythic bosses besides Garrosh.

This is getting a bit anal now. 80% for most tests is way above average for the vast majority of real world examples and therefore isn't bad. Sure, go pull a niche example out where 81% is required to pass, thats certainly the norm! Stop grasping at straws.

[Deleted]

Here's an isolated WG from thok THIS week:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...65&end=8370118
234K with a 27.5% overheal, meaning about 322K healing. Split between 6 raiders, that's about 53K healing per, or *also* half their healthpool.

The relative strength of WG hasn't really changed in any way - you just see it working now rather than overhealing due to absorbs/strength of spamming heals.

Woah stop right there.

You had a healthpool of merely 644k before and your healthpool now is 106k? Don't know what's wrong with your character, but I have below 100k hp right now and I had around 750k before.

More importantly... that druid was using Soul of the Forest before but not on the mythic kill. That means these numbers are not even comparable.
So please, let's stop with the exaggerations and oversights to fit your argument.

Wild Growth relative strength has definitely changed. It has become stronger and because of the healing changes it has become far more noticeable as well. Wild Growth being the top heal is not ridiculous in any way. With Soul of the Forest, A single Wild Growth HoT is currently as strong as a rejuvenation for each target that it hits (which is either six or seven). Additionally it heals that amount way faster than a rejuvenation would ever hope to do, so it's way better at sniping the damage.

[Trubo]

This is getting a bit anal now. 80% for most tests is way above average for the vast majority of real world examples and therefore isn't bad. Sure, go pull a niche example out where 81% is required to pass, thats certainly the norm! Stop grasping at straws.

It's really not that farfetched. Suppose someone wants an A/B/C in a class and they have to meet a minimum grade on their final to get that grade. Do they deserve the grade if they get below the minimum? College applications, both undergraduate and graduate levels, have minimum requirements to be considered before one gets accepted as a student. How about a minimum years worked/job performance example for employment, particularly specialized jobs such as Machinists, Engineers, Doctors, etc? Plenty of cases in the real world where considering the vast majority of people doesn't really mean anything when only X% or less of them are capable.

[Dracodraco]

Woah stop right there.

You had a healthpool of merely 644k before and your healthpool now is 106k? Don't know what's wrong with your character, but I have below 100k hp right now and I had around 750k before.

More importantly... that druid was using Soul of the Forest before but not on the mythic kill. That means these numbers are not even comparable.
So please, let's stop with the exaggerations and oversights to fit your argument.

Wild Growth relative strength has definitely changed. It has become stronger and because of the healing changes it has become far more noticeable as well. Wild Growth being the top heal is not ridiculous in any way. With Soul of the Forest, A single Wild Growth HoT is currently as strong as a rejuvenation for each target that it hits (which is either six or seven). Additionally it heals that amount way faster than a rejuvenation would ever hope to do, so it's way better at sniping the damage.

I had 750K on my priest pre-patch, and 103K now. Bit of a difference, I'll admit - I thought it was smaller, and in that case, yes, the relative strength of WG seems to be slightly stronger. On the other hand, but either way you were far more likely to overheal pre-patch, which makes WG seems a lot stronger now.

Likewise, he isn't using SOTF now because ToL is stronger for burst which is the only thing that matters now (he did get a 400K+ healing WG during ToL aswell). I'll admit that it seems to be slightly stronger, but in all honesty, it doesn't matter - if people do not realise that they do less powerfull and efficient AOE healing now than before the patch, no matter how the numbers are tuned (just because WG overtakes Rejuv for someone does not mean WG is a ton better than before - just that rejuv is a fuckton weaker), then I wish them luck on progress. Either way you cut it, the obvious reason why 3 healing a 30 man heroic raid is more difficult than 3 healing a 20 man mythic, is because there's far more targets and AOE healing is capped at X amount of targets. Same reason healing in 10 man was relatively easier for druids/priests (could blanket the raid with rejuvs / PoH actually had a noticeable effect on the raid) in the previous tiers.

And while WG seems to be comparatively stronger (1.8K avg tick vs 7.6K), Effloresence is a shitton weaker, at 2.1K average vs 32.2K average, which probably makes up for the difference <.<.

Sustained throughput is basicly what you can't manage anymore - output was squished far more than HP, so you have to burst more/longer to heal everyone up - as evidenced by 750K healthpools (down to 103K), so a 1:7.5 ratio, and the best Malkorok druid being at 55.3K (minus tranquility) now, and 670K (minus tranquility) before the patch. If the output was supposed to have followed health linearly, the best Malkorok log should have been at around 415K pre-patch (minus tranquility).

Even accounting for Tranquility in both kills, it's 83K vs 840K - or a 1:10 ratio.

[Thalur]

No one is arguing that healing wasn't reduced much more than HP, that was the whole point of the healing changes. So, most healing abilities were nerfed, some of them massively, but the resto druid's AoE spells were buffed instead. It's good that we can agree on that. The reason for this is also obvious, druids were great in 10 man but not so great in 25, because we didn't have a non-target-capped AoE spell like most other classes.

I looked up the numbers in WoL and it looks like we were both right: the overall incoming damage was roughly the same on average (adjusting for fight length) for 20M and 30H, so the reason why it felt more difficult is that as a druid, it's much easier to heal the same amount of damge spread over fewer players that over a larger number. However, mythic only doing 33% more damage to the raid than heroic is way way less difference than before the patch. But I still don't know if heroic has been nerfed afterwards or not. Siegecrafter had ~40m HP on 30H and ~23m HP on 20M, if someone would like to check. Actually, looking at those numbers, on heroic the boss had more HP/player than on mythic. So it really was more difficult.

[Deleted]

Minor derail on the same topic... wondering if you guys can help me out with something for Garrosh. We got our first heroic/mythic kill tonight (got to phase four prior to patch but couple people went on holiday so we had a break as we lost our setup to try and push the end). But on fourth malice it appears that our two people we had to soak the malice on the 2nd bombardment didn't stop malice exploding on the raid. Do we need three people on that fourth malice to stop it popping the raid?

[Aquamonkey]

Minor derail on the same topic... wondering if you guys can help me out with something for Garrosh. We got our first heroic/mythic kill tonight (got to phase four prior to patch but couple people went on holiday so we had a break as we lost our setup to try and push the end). But on fourth malice it appears that our two people we had to soak the malice on the 2nd bombardment didn't stop malice exploding on the raid. Do we need three people on that fourth malice to stop it popping the raid?

Malice goes on 4 pple other than the actual person. If there aren't 4 other pple in the circle, it will explode on raid.

[Frozendekay]

Minor derail on the same topic... wondering if you guys can help me out with something for Garrosh. We got our first heroic/mythic kill tonight (got to phase four prior to patch but couple people went on holiday so we had a break as we lost our setup to try and push the end). But on fourth malice it appears that our two people we had to soak the malice on the 2nd bombardment didn't stop malice exploding on the raid. Do we need three people on that fourth malice to stop it popping the raid?

This is what logs were made for. Check to see how many people Malice hits each time (it's 4).

[Deja Thoris]

Minor derail on the same topic... wondering if you guys can help me out with something for Garrosh. We got our first heroic/mythic kill tonight (got to phase four prior to patch but couple people went on holiday so we had a break as we lost our setup to try and push the end). But on fourth malice it appears that our two people we had to soak the malice on the 2nd bombardment didn't stop malice exploding on the raid. Do we need three people on that fourth malice to stop it popping the raid?

A more pertinent question is how the 4th malice happens? :P We had 2 dead carries and killed it before the ironstar was meant to impact. You should save lust for p4 now.

[Wilderness]

A more pertinent question is how the 4th malice happens? :P We had 2 dead carries and killed it before the ironstar was meant to impact. You should save lust for p4 now.

We still used hero during P3 and we also killed it before the Ironstar should've hit as well. No carries this week but there's not much of a reason to get that 4th malice anymore.

[TrollShaman]

Looking at how everyone else handled Garry mythic, seems like our overall dps were subpar :P originally a 10m 13/14H guild, our guild merged with another originally 10/14H 10m guild.

downed him after about 20 wipes. from P1 to P2 the second wave of warbringers come out half of the time during the attempts. he usually enters P3 after the 3rd desecrated weapon. P4 occurs before the second empowered MC. adapting to P4 was the most chaotic to us, between people derping malice on the move from bombardment, wrong star fixate targets or spawning double stars :P. we bloodlusted and potted as soon as we could attack. Garry eventually died at the 4th malice, nearly half the raid died due to double star explosion back to back and malice stack derps. we used 4 heals 1 tank, too.

sure we're late, but at least I'm glad we didnt kill him after WoD is live. winning the mount made it all the better too.

[Wythel]

Looking at how everyone else handled Garry mythic, seems like our overall dps were subpar :P originally a 10m 13/14H guild, our guild merged with another originally 10/14H 10m guild.

downed him after about 20 wipes. from P1 to P2 the second wave of warbringers come out half of the time during the attempts. he usually enters P3 after the 3rd desecrated weapon. P4 occurs before the second empowered MC. adapting to P4 was the most chaotic to us, between people derping malice on the move from bombardment, wrong star fixate targets or spawning double stars :P. we bloodlusted and potted as soon as we could attack. Garry eventually died at the 4th malice, nearly half the raid died due to double star explosion back to back and malice stack derps. we used 4 heals 1 tank, too.

sure we're late, but at least I'm glad we didnt kill him after WoD is live. winning the mount made it all the better too.

If 20 people answered a ready check, I don't see how you can have a second wave of warbringers. Just ignore the star, ignore weapons, ignore everything.

[Ogait]

Looking at how everyone else handled Garry mythic, seems like our overall dps were subpar :P originally a 10m 13/14H guild, our guild merged with another originally 10/14H 10m guild.

downed him after about 20 wipes. from P1 to P2 the second wave of warbringers come out half of the time during the attempts. he usually enters P3 after the 3rd desecrated weapon. P4 occurs before the second empowered MC. adapting to P4 was the most chaotic to us, between people derping malice on the move from bombardment, wrong star fixate targets or spawning double stars :P. we bloodlusted and potted as soon as we could attack. Garry eventually died at the 4th malice, nearly half the raid died due to double star explosion back to back and malice stack derps. we used 4 heals 1 tank, too.

sure we're late, but at least I'm glad we didnt kill him after WoD is live. winning the mount made it all the better too.

Gratz on the kill and the mount ^.^

Like Wythel said, just ignore everything and DPS the boss as much as possible.
All the adds will be dead when he goes to the middle (which should be when the 1st Ironstar is rolling) and next week you can reduce 1 healer in order to have higher DPS and ignore more stuff from the fight.

We did the boss with 1 tank and 3 healers and most of the stuff were ignore.

• 1 Desecrated Weapon on 1st Phase
• 1 Ironstar on 1st Phase
• 2 Desecrated Weapons on 2nd Phase
• 1 Whirlwind on 2nd Phase
• 1 Desecrated on 3rd Phase
• 0 Whirlwinds on 3rd phase
• 2 Malice on 4th phase - Boss died a few seconds after bombarment.

Keep in mind that Ironstar checks for proximity every 10 seconds, so just make sure no one is close to it when the kiter is running around.

[TrollShaman]

those are super fast o-o it's definitely a player's individual issue then. i was a 583 marks hunter sitting around 14-15k dps at 7th place, i'm not so sure if that is a good ballpark for hunter dps before the hotfix buff, though i will check in the hunter forums to be sure. one of our ele shaman's comp froze in p4 during the kill attempt, as well as there were 2 dps below our solo tank, a bear.

regardless, some got nice upgrades last night, and we only had a few fotm specs in the raid (only 1 fire mage, no demo lock/fury war). the buffs after maintenance + the upgrades should make things better and faster.

[Moshots]

Heroic Lei Shen is currently the hardest boss in the game. Who would have thought that he would reclaim his spot on the top this late in the expansion, LOL!

Heroic Rag was still the hardest boss at end of Cata. We sold Heroic rag mounts still for 125k in full DS gear. We couldn't give Deathwing mounts away we left like 20 on the boss.......

[Raiju]

Heroic Rag was still the hardest boss at end of Cata. We sold Heroic rag mounts still for 125k in full DS gear. We couldn't give Deathwing mounts away we left like 20 on the boss.......

That's more because the deathwing mount looked utter shit compared to the ragnaros one, since post nerf ragnaros didn't really pose any problems to anyone capable of doing spine hc.

[Dracodraco]

That's more because the deathwing mount looked utter shit compared to the ragnaros one, since post nerf ragnaros didn't really pose any problems to anyone capable of doing spine hc.

If I recall correct, Ragnaros mount also only dropped 1x per kill, while Deathwing was the first boss ever to drop 2x mounts per kill, no?

[Raiju]

Possibly, it only dropped 1 on 10man, but likely multiple on 25 whereas ragnaros was 1 on both

[Trubo]

If I recall correct, Ragnaros mount also only dropped 1x per kill, while Deathwing was the first boss ever to drop 2x mounts per kill, no?

It depended on raid size for the Madness (not the Blazing Drake) and Garrosh mounts, one for 10 man and two for 25 man. But yeah, those are the only two mounts that had varying amounts based on raid size/difficulty, all other mounts only dropped one per kill regardless of size/difficulty.

[IxilaFA]

This is getting a bit anal now. 80% for most tests is way above average for the vast majority of real world examples and therefore isn't bad. Sure, go pull a niche example out where 81% is required to pass, thats certainly the norm! Stop grasping at straws.

Except in a real academic sense, 80% is not "way above average." Since most Graduate programs require at minimum a 3.0 GPA (though they might state a lower requirement, you're kidding yourself if you think you can get in with anything lower), the absolute minimum grade you can get in a class is a B, AKA, 80%.

If we consider raiding Mythic / Heroic as a Graduate program, those who killed Garrosh a month before the patch are in the 80th percentile, meaning they barely made it into the program. Are they better than the other 80% of people who didn't make it? Probably, nobody is debating that issue. But they definitely don't measure up to those who made it in with a 3.8 or 4.0 GPA.

You're simply kidding yourself if you think that killing a boss after upgrades / nerfs is the same thing as killing it pre-nerf. Pre-nerf, my guild had to actually do Phase 2 Intermission, kite adds, and deal with multiple Empowered Whirling Corruptions (usually 2 in each phase). Post nerf we skipped Phase 2 and had to deal with 2 Empowered Whirling Corruptions total. So you can't tell me that the boss was anything near similar at that point.

- - - Updated - - -

Heroic Rag was still the hardest boss at end of Cata. We sold Heroic rag mounts still for 125k in full DS gear. We couldn't give Deathwing mounts away we left like 20 on the boss.......

No he wasn't. My shitty, 8/8 Heroic Dragon Soul guild that was ranked like, 10,000th in the world went in and downed Rag after a night's worth of attempts. The reason Rag mounts sold well is because most guilds didn't kill Rag back when he was relevant and couldn't be assed to go back and try later. It had nothing to do with his difficulty at the time.