Shaman future grim?

[Deleted]

After looking through several threads and some simcraft logs(yeah i know) it seems Shaman, both Enhancer and Elemental, seem pretty bad on WoD.

Is the situation really that bad? How is resto?

[Raiju]

Meh, as far as enhancement goes we had a good second half of the expansion. Blizzard is now going to right that wrong and put us in our rightful place where we always were beforehand.

[skribzy]

Shaman has always been lowish on damage for the first tiers based on Blizzards idea that hybrid classes should not be as powerful as the pure classes.

All the healers are in a strange place, just be glad you're not a mistweaver.

Shaman should be fine, simcraft is simcraft, and they are not that far behind the other classes.

[Anetulan]

Keep in mind that simcraft is only for single target without any movement, so for ele it doesn't take into account their aoe which when they can take advantage of chain lightning and earthquake should be amazing, which should help offset a lower single target damage.

[Hekili]

Shaman has always been lowish on damage for the first tiers based on Blizzards idea that hybrid classes should not be as powerful as the pure classes.

This is not the current design philosophy at Blizzard. Hunters would like to talk to you about being very low DPS across 3 DPS specs.

Keep in mind that simcraft is only for single target without any movement

No, that's not true. While that may be the most commonly run simulation, you can certainly do non-Patchwerk simulations with movement, adds, and other dynamics. We may be learning that the expectation is that few fights, if any, will be single-target Patchwerk deals.

I'm pretty confident that Enhancement DPS is balanced around the idea that you'll be cleaving a large percentage of the time, and Fire Nova adds absurd damage when used effectively.

[Oopsmezedya]

This http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16M.html shows ele at top, and another report show enh in top 5 specs , i think it really just depends on the fight and gear

Hunters are doomed to low dps for their new mobile dps niche

[Nebria]

This http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16M.html shows ele at top, and another report show enh in top 5 specs , i think it really just depends on the fight and gear

Hunters are doomed to low dps for their new mobile dps niche

this is a sim (and there was a lot of talk recently that sims are not good to realy measure raidperformance), and it is for lvl 90 in t16, which lasts only 4 weeks. much important will be (if you use sims as reference) the t17 lvl 100 sim

and for hunters, well, if there is no real patchwork fight they don't have a real disadvantage if every fight contains movement.
we will see.

[Deleted]

Shaman has always been lowish on damage for the first tiers based on Blizzards idea that hybrid classes should not be as powerful as the pure classes.

All the healers are in a strange place, just be glad you're not a mistweaver.

Shaman should be fine, simcraft is simcraft, and they are not that far behind the other classes.

Well 10-30% behind is very much. Too much for a progress guild where even 3 or 4 % constantly would be bad. Especially since both dps specs lack raid utility that would make them "necessary".

Well for the moment, we will ahve to wait if they fix shaman dps after obciously everyone will see how bad they are or if they wait for 6.1.

If they wait for 6.1, i'm out. I still have no clue why e.g. warlocks once again are 20% stronger than elementals.

This has to be intentional for some reason.

- - - Updated - - -

This http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16M.html shows ele at top, and another report show enh in top 5 specs , i think it really just depends on the fight and gear

Hunters are doomed to low dps for their new mobile dps niche

Well fire mages have the same mobitity as hunters and look where they are. Of course they still have insane scaling,that's why they look so good in highend gear, probably not THAT good in low crit gear. But still, once again mages and locks dominating the ranged front and probably of all dps, just like all MOP.

and those are the T17 results:
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...d-10-9-14.html

[MrExcelion]

Well fire mages have the same mobitity as hunters

Scorch was nerfed to 25% SP, so we'll avoid casting it at all in PVE now, just the occasional Ice Floes, proc usage, and Blink to react to mechanics, so its current mobility is closer to that of our Frost spec. We'll be keeping our feet planted [especially if you take RoP]. Arcane remains the least mobile, but yeah Fire is more like Frost now instead of doing nearly full DPS on the move like on live.

[Deleted]

Scorch was nerfed to 25% SP, so we'll avoid casting it at all in PVE now, just the occasional Ice Floes, proc usage, and Blink to react to mechanics, so its current mobility is closer to that of our Frost spec. We'll be keeping our feet planted [especially if you take RoP]. Arcane remains the least mobile, but yeah Fire is more like Frost now instead of doing nearly full DPS on the move like on live.

They don't need scorch, with the right crit chance, they will have tons of instants, more than anyone else, and they will have talents for those rare situations. Plus high mobility to have more cast time and still, scorc deals some damage and can proc, so they can use it to get pyroblast proccs even while moving.

It's still extremely mobile, that's what we are going to see in the coming weeks. It's not like there's a fight you have to move all the time. Fire mages can react to any situation that happens in real raiding just close to 100% perfectly.

[F4ulty]

I've never been one to geek over the numbers until I get there. Plus, as long as I can keep up, my guild won't be mad, and understand the problem probably isn't between the chair and keyboard. I've been top dog ever since I came back and rerolled from Resto Druid to Enhancement.
I'm looking forward to playing with some of the changes in a few days, and even more so to starting the expansion

[Zigzagzoom]

Hunters will be paying a motility tax which in the end will balance out as patchwork fights don't exist anymore.

[Yagyu4k]

ele was always better for pve (since we dont have wft anymore)
enhance is actually extremely bad for pve, just for aoe it seems a bit op, but all in all enhance is an pvp spec right now

[Blithe]

Regardless of whether it seems grim or not, adjust to the meta or re-roll. That's how it's always been, and that's how it will continue to be. Besides, there isn't many things we can do at this stage, considering a lot of the other classes are discussing the exact same thing and when we did outcry at the opportune time, absolutely nothing was done.

Either way, I'm done with Elemental, as removing the ability to cast Lightning Bolt on the move feels as if it's completely broken the spec, regardless of whether it was for balance or not so it looks like I'm going back to Enhancement, I just hope my frame-rate can hold out.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I haven't see enough numbers for Elemental on the warcraftlogs website and now it seems as though I can't find any more to check but here's to hoping that Blizzard is right to call out SimCraft for being inaccurate and that Elemental is actually pulling decent numbers under live performance when all aspects of the fight are factored in.

I'm more inclined to believe that they simply undertuned Shamans as a whole again though. The problem with this expansion and waiting a content tier to apply a band aide fix is that we may only have two content patches and we'll simply hit the reset button much sooner to go through all this again in 7.0.

[hYrsch]

Sims are sims. These are patchwork fights too. In a realistic fight you have a) Movement b) Aoe phases c) Cleaving.

The problem is for elemental shamans: we are bad at all that stuff except AOEing, with the requirement 1) that the adds live long enough so that we can CL and then EQ for a few seconds and 2) the adds stay in the earthquake for as long as possible. We can theoretically precast earthquake for short living adds, but it would deal little dmg without casting CL once before (due to the chain lightning perk).

The other classes suffer from movement, too. But most of them have good tools to deal with that, elemental shamans, for the most part, don't.

Cleaving: Except 2 Target earthquakes, flame shock dotting and chainlightning cleaving (given again that the enemies stand close together) theres not that much that we can do there to.

Given to that we dont have that much off-healing anymore, for me as a "hard core" raider, it's hard to justify the raid spot for an elemental shaman.

Enhancement Shaman: biggest flaw: they are melee, they have good aoe dps though (highest dd in sustained aoe on many targets) which can justify their raidspot. Same thing with offhealing as elemental shamans.

Restoration Shamans: Are not too bad, but with cutting healers in progression i think you'd want to bring 1-2 druids, 1-2 paladins and one extra healer, that could be a priest, shaman or monk. (opinion based on beta testing) They are not too bad imo. meaning a viable healer for not too hardcore raids

[Hekili]

Sims are sims. These are patchwork fights too. In a realistic fight you have a) Movement b) Aoe phases c) Cleaving.

You can write a simulation profile for movement, AOE phases, cleaving, immunity phases, and a whole lot else. Then you have a profile that ends up applicable to one specific boss. It'd almost be worth it, just to improve our ability to compare logs vs. simulations.

But the whole, "it's Patchwerk, it means nothing!" is almost worse than pretending SimC output is pristine gospel. It just reflects that the writer is using the tool improperly. (See also: "AskMrRobot/ReforgeLite is dumb!")

[MrExcelion]

It's still extremely mobile

It is, just like Frost, just not like its current state on live where it's equal to hunters, that's all I was getting at.

[hYrsch]

You can write a simulation profile for movement, AOE phases, cleaving, immunity phases, and a whole lot else. Then you have a profile that ends up applicable to one specific boss. It'd almost be worth it, just to improve our ability to compare logs vs. simulations.

But the whole, "it's Patchwerk, it means nothing!" is almost worse than pretending SimC output is pristine gospel. It just reflects that the writer is using the tool improperly. (See also: "AskMrRobot/ReforgeLite is dumb!")

Thats true, but i was referring to the sim chart that was posted in another thread (my bad, though it was also posted here ._.) which was a patchwerk only fight. Based on that i also explained what you can expect in a realistic fight and the outcome of a more realistic sim.

Simcharts i was reffering to: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

[Deleted]

It is just sad that enhancers are once again over 10% behind most other melees. It really is a shame...

And once again it is warlocks and mages dominating all other ranged specs by 10-20%.

Really ridicolous. This is completely intentional. They know exactly that it is like that. And they dont act.

It is like in 5.4 where we asked them why they buffed warlocks although thy were so high on live servers. And they responded, that their testing showed that warlocks were too weak.

Yeah sure... even after buffing other specs and nerfing warlocks they are still that much ahead. And actually 5.4 sim results arent even as good as 6.0 results for warlocks.

Warlocks and mages will be dps kings once again, especially once you consider how good they are at exploiting mechanics.