Maybe Stealth is Outdated I would Surrender it.

[Jdance]

Yeah, please don't change stealth.

[Packing an i5]

Yeah, please don't change stealth.

dont worry they wont and blizzard doesnt read this forum just like they dont read their own forums.

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Just wish it was more useful when not playing Sub. Sub gets a burst window every reset because of find weakness you can open eviscerate, mfd eviscerate again and the target will be near death usually.

[ymirsson]

FF and Flare are iconic.

fixed it for you

[Deleted]

*While a rogue is a melee class the rogue is forced to retreat and regain the stealth effect constantly to survive a rogue cannot survive long out in the open, we have great active survivability but very little passive survivability and healing.

Excuse me? Have you seen the new recuperate? Rogue not only can survve "out in the open", he can do so very very very successfully.

*Primary active defensive cooldown: Vanish not always usable, can be stunned immediately after its activation by an AOE stun effect wears off its wasted and your vulnerable again.

It can be used 2 times. Glyphed it has one of the shortest cooldowns in the game. Very Very Very few characters a) have an AoE stun and b) have the reaction time to apply it to a vanishing rogue.

* Evasion, Great Defensive cooldown boop hit by unavoidable stun now rendered useless.

Timing a cooldown like Evasion is a skill-question.

Stealth is No longer Unique. While Rogues and Druids have always both had stealth lately other classes have been given versions of stealth as well. mages, hunters, priests. These 3 classes I just named also have Pets and other dandies Rogues lack so I feel they should not get stealth at all but taking it away would be too detrimental they would need to be compensated in other ways for their loss of survivability.

Yes it is. Hunters don't have effective stealth 1) a camouflaged hunter is easily detected and unstealthed, 2) his stealth has a time limit. Even 1min is a very short time frame, if you want to stalk someone in open PvP, or ward an objective in a BG. They need a glyph to even be able to move around, and then they CRAWL across the map. Mages also don't have effective stealth...its based on a long Cooldown and lasts only 20 seconds. Priests ... are you joking? Requires a Talent, lasts 6 seconds or 3 attacks on the target, and you can't do anything while stealthed other than running anway.

I would not be Opposed to taking the approach other MMOs have and just dump the idea of a stealth class if that were to happen Rogues would have to be given other Dandy Spells to work with in the areas of Illusion and Hardiness because clearly it is too hard to balance stealth classes/abilities in an online MMO RPG game.

No, simply no. Stealth is an integral part of the design approach.

OR Only one Spec focuses on stealth (Sub) As it is sub already benefits the most from stealth just make Combat/Assassination far less reliant on it for damage and protection.

And then what are we reliant on? Shieldwall? A cast-able heal? Plate Armor? You do realize, that Warriors, Paladins, Monks and Shamans already exist?

The MONK Class is already a vision of a rogue without stealth except that is also a hybrid capable of healing and Tanking. I am Not proposing making the Rogue Class a Hybrid Class.

1) No, he isn't. The monk is a hybrid. He has castable heals and Tank CDs, which allow him to cope as a low-armor melee. 2) Yes you are, as that is the only way to make a stealth-less rogue viable, which brings us back to the aforementioned point: Monks and Shamans already exist.

So instead of fixing Rogue the class got shelved and they just made a new leather wearing, energy class. I am and always was insulted by this.

The rogue doesn't require "fixing". "Fixing" is required if something is broken, if it doesn't work. The rogue not only works, but works so perfectly in its design, Blizzard even admits to it being the ONLY class, which is exactly in the spot where they want it to be.

Opposite direction would be to remove stealth from the classes that have temporary stealth abilities and beef up the Rogue and Druid stealth but everyone who doesn not play a rogue or druid would oppose this.

No, why? It makes perfect sense that Mages can become invisible, or Shadow priests can play mind tricks, or hunters can use Camouflage. You are arguing: "Stealth either unique or go away"...why? Why does a mechanic have to be unique? Should paladins not be allowed to use Shields to block attacks, because Warriors are already doing it? Should Ascendence go away because Druids can already shapeshift?

And how exactly would you "beef" rogue stealth? Rogues are nigh undetectable, suffer no movespeed loss. We can CC from stealth, we have a multitude of openers, can stealth in combat. We can move INDEFINITELY at high speed in stealth, provided BoS. We can heal while stealthed, using MfD or Prem + Recup. We can stay stealthed indefinitely. Our stealth is not reliant on a specific stance, which locks us out of using certain class abilities. There is no "beefing" required.

Conclusion. Stealth is always a weakness or crutch in this game people will always complain that stealth is what makes Rogues Overpowered or that because of stealth they are un worthy and un needing of any buffs, additions to the class.

If we start basing design decisions on the incoherent ramblings of the Mob on the official PvP forums, we can turn off the WoW Servers.

[Hinansho]

I think Wildstar's stalker has the best incarnation of stealth I've ever seen. There are two versions which work like stances, one is defensive(for tanking) and the other offensive. The defensive gives a bit of life steal as well as movement speed(iirc), and the offensive version offers a guaranteed crit on your next hit and a static DPs increase.

I'd say the removal of stealth would be unnecessary but a redesign would be more than welcome. Maybe specifically the removal of stealth only abilities and instead having stealth modify the way our current abilities work(think demo lock metamorphosis). Maybe have a cool down reduction based on full combo point finishers and make it usable in combat.

[lifteez]

Playing rogue throughout the years, and similar agile dps in games like GW2/aion/etc, I think the way stealth should play out is not have it permenant. Yeah I'd miss walking around BGs/pvp zones and afk stealthing, picking the fights I want. But I think stealth could have a more satisfying role.

The use of stealth as a temporary cd, on a shorter cool down would give more rewards to good choices by rogues, and less consequence to RNG cc landing right as the rogue vanishes etc. It would also mean if the rogue vanished, he couldn't just peace out, because it wouldn't be permenant.

[Deleted]

Playing rogue throughout the years, and similar agile dps in games like GW2/aion/etc, I think the way stealth should play out is not have it permenant. Yeah I'd miss walking around BGs/pvp zones and afk stealthing, picking the fights I want. But I think stealth could have a more satisfying role.

The use of stealth as a temporary cd, on a shorter cool down would give more rewards to good choices by rogues, and less consequence to RNG cc landing right as the rogue vanishes etc. It would also mean if the rogue vanished, he couldn't just peace out, because it wouldn't be permenant.

I like the games you pick as examples...all of them so incredibly successful, and with such a large, stable playerba.....rg.reativsht98a! *Reboot* Sorry, I can't even write that one with a serious face

Please elaborate my good man...whats the RNG component in permanent stealth? YOu know that you have some way of stealthing, similar to vanish, in a "short stealth" game as well, right? And how would a short stealth give "more rewards to good choices"? Answer is: It wouldn't you are just writing something, trying to make it look like an argument. If I use the tactical advantage of stealth correctly, its rewarding, if I unstealth next to three warriors instead, I'm dead, end of story, duration has nothing to do with it. The only thing short stealth would do in WoW: It would make it incredibly hard to make a good move, so where is the "more" in rewarding?

Yes, short stealth can work...in a game WHICH IS DESIGNED FOR IT. WoW, with its large BGs, long-term plays and open world scenarios, isn't. If I know that a rogue cannot stay stealthed indefinitely, I can easily abuse it...run away, or hide in my flare until its gone. So what's the plan? The only way this could work, is again to give rogues such good survivability, initiation and control OUTSIDE of stealth, that they will either be completely OP (since they still have stealth in some form) or become just another melee.

[Malithar]

Just recently returned to the game (fresh account!), having not played since Ulduar in WotLK. Loved stealth then and now.

Had a question though and with this topic being about Stealth with some mentions of Vanish, figured I'd ask here. Back then, Vanish had a very slim window where you'd be immune to incoming AoE damage. Remember using it very often in the Wintergrasp Vault for those bosses, and some others in various other raids. Is that still the case? My Google-fu might be a bit weak, but all I can find concerning a Vanish nerf is references to a time when Vanish wasn't putting the Rogue into an Improved Stealth state.

[Deleted]

Yes, Vanish still does that. You are not immune to AoE damage, but it doesn't unstealth you for the few seconds the actual Vanish-Buff is there.

The OP was refering to several abilities which could AoE STUN. Since a stunned unit cannot be stealthed (if you sap a stealthed rogue, he becomes visible for all), this gets you out of stealth, ignoring Vanish.


HOWEVER: What the OP conveniently left unmentioned: There are only two classes ingame (monk and warrior) who can actually do that, Monks and Warriors. Warris have to skill it, and hit it, Monks leg sweep has a ridiculous range and is easily avoided.

[lifteez]

I like the games you pick as examples...all of them so incredibly successful, and with such a large, stable playerba.....rg.reativsht98a! *Reboot* Sorry, I can't even write that one with a serious face

Please elaborate my good man...whats the RNG component in permanent stealth? YOu know that you have some way of stealthing, similar to vanish, in a "short stealth" game as well, right? And how would a short stealth give "more rewards to good choices"? Answer is: It wouldn't you are just writing something, trying to make it look like an argument. If I use the tactical advantage of stealth correctly, its rewarding, if I unstealth next to three warriors instead, I'm dead, end of story, duration has nothing to do with it. The only thing short stealth would do in WoW: It would make it incredibly hard to make a good move, so where is the "more" in rewarding?

Yes, short stealth can work...in a game WHICH IS DESIGNED FOR IT. WoW, with its large BGs, long-term plays and open world scenarios, isn't. If I know that a rogue cannot stay stealthed indefinitely, I can easily abuse it...run away, or hide in my flare until its gone. So what's the plan? The only way this could work, is again to give rogues such good survivability, initiation and control OUTSIDE of stealth, that they will either be completely OP (since they still have stealth in some form) or become just another melee.

All I see are walls of texts, with numerous words shoved into my mouth and explanations I didn't use. Beautiful strawman writing friend.
I'll expand.
Claim - rogues as a class has low survivability, and a stronger heal/shieldwall change wouldn't feel satisfying.

*To say we can stay out with the big boys in a fight without healers with recupe alone is a opinion, but not a widely accepted one. Recup is not a good heal in pvp.
*Feint is our only good defensive cd. Talented of course, you could also say. Evasion can be a very solid CD, but gets nullified after a stun. To argue that it's a skill based cd is valid, but if you are dieing and waiting for them to stun you, but they won't, your reduced to popping it, praying not to get stunned, nullifying evasion as a cd, kiting and spamming feint.

Conclusion: so if you beleive we have the lowest self survivability when it comes to staying in the fight, than you may agree a change in stealth would be satisfying. Yeah we can survive forever in theory currently with vanishes, but then we do 0 dmg. So since I don't think any of us rogues want a fast or spamable heal, and it wouldn't feel good to just get a shield wall button, why not change stealth to something that is used more in pvp, and can be something we look forward to more than just on vanishes, and the uncommon re stealth in competitive pvp(sure in bgs u get them allt but no good team willingly let's a rogue restealth in constructed play).
Why not make vanish a temporary stealth, until next hit, that could be empowered? Obviously any changes could be subjective, I don't honestly care how you'd like to think of it, sub only, all specs, 1 min cd, or 15sec. The idea is that right now we can't survive and maybe it's time to look at what we would like that's realistic

[Packing an i5]

All I see are walls of texts, with numerous words shoved into my mouth and explanations I didn't use. Beautiful strawman writing friend.
I'll expand.
Claim - rogues as a class has low survivability, and a stronger heal/shieldwall change wouldn't feel satisfying.

*To say we can stay out with the big boys in a fight without healers with recupe alone is a opinion, but not a widely accepted one. Recup is not a good heal in pvp.
*Feint is our only good defensive cd. Talented of course, you could also say. Evasion can be a very solid CD, but gets nullified after a stun. To argue that it's a skill based cd is valid, but if you are dieing and waiting for them to stun you, but they won't, your reduced to popping it, praying not to get stunned, nullifying evasion as a cd, kiting and spamming feint.

Conclusion: so if you beleive we have the lowest self survivability when it comes to staying in the fight, than you may agree a change in stealth would be satisfying. Yeah we can survive forever in theory currently with vanishes, but then we do 0 dmg. So since I don't think any of us rogues want a fast or spamable heal, and it wouldn't feel good to just get a shield wall button, why not change stealth to something that is used more in pvp, and can be something we look forward to more than just on vanishes, and the uncommon re stealth in competitive pvp(sure in bgs u get them allt but no good team willingly let's a rogue restealth in constructed play).
Why not make vanish a temporary stealth, until next hit, that could be empowered? Obviously any changes could be subjective, I don't honestly care how you'd like to think of it, sub only, all specs, 1 min cd, or 15sec. The idea is that right now we can't survive and maybe it's time to look at what we would like that's realistic

excellent post fully agree. I would rather have stealth become vanish with a 30 second cooldown or stealth being removed but vanish becoming a 30 second cooldown to be use often for both offense and defense instead of being forced to reset over and over, sit out and wait doing 0 damage.

whenever your running away trying to reset your not peeling for your team or doing damage same thing if your spamming feint your also lower your damage output to basically nothing.

[Fiska]

Why remove stealth? if you don't like the rogue playstyle of hit and run go play another class.

I would surrender stealth the day I died, stealth is the reason I made this character back during vanilla and is the reason I've played only one character my entire wow career. With the upcoming lack of flight in WoD, stealth is going to be more powerful than ever, so no, stealth is not outdated and no I would never surrender it. Those of you who think we should, should probably go play a different class because you aren't true rogues.

This.
Stealth remains prominent in outdoor PvE, and it has gotten a lot of quality of life changes over the last expansions. Removing the movement speed penalty was a big one, and now you can actually be faster in Stealth with Nightstalker than you are un-stealthed. On lvl 60 you'll get three solid mobility talents to choose from which all work in Stealth. Glyphed Stealth allows you to enter Stealth again quicker after quick kills, making sure you can always open a fight from Stealth without having to wait. Using Stealth during outdoor PvE is a solid benefit these days for most activities. Personally I can't understand how it's possible to disregard it.

I can't comment on PvP since I don't participate in it, but in raids Stealth is less emphasized during boss fights. Mainly because time spent in combat is much greater than when questing. Though I will say that you're likely to be the person surviving a wipe due to Vanish, which is effectively Stealth. How can you turn this into a negative aspect? If every class had the option to prevent their deaths on a wipe I can assure you they'd use that button every time.

Honestly I don't understand why Rogues complain about their Stealth. It's one of our best abilities, has great gameplay associated with it, and contributes a lot to the uniqueness of the class. I see arguments that other classes have better stealth equivalents every time this topic comes up, but it's simply not true. Those classes do not excel at stealth on as many levels as the Rogue does. Sadly, people will find the *one* level where a class is better and make that their holding point. Previous thread about Stealth I saw a guy arguing that Prowl was better than Stealth due to Cat Form having potentially 30% faster movement speed at the expense of Wild Charge. Would you give up Shadowstep for 15% movement speed?

[Mectrid]

I'd just like some form of bonus whilst stealthed, maybe Recup ticks are increased or we gain some defensive bonus, then put Vanish on a 2 charge system with it's current CD, keep Prep and let it give 2 charges on use.

All in all though, I'm fine with the mechanic behind it atm, but I do feel that other classes having alternatives is a bit weak. Druid makes sense to me but Camouflage went a bit too far especially when you take into account it's CD, even with just a 6 second in combat effect, that's potentially 100% of damage you're avoiding for that duration in PvP. We just don't get broken out of stealth for 3 seconds and take full damage if it's located on us.

Just feels like Hunter's shouldn't be able to disappear from a fight more often than a Rogue, the only way I'd let that pass is if they hid in bushes and walked around Looney Toons style.

[Fiska]

Just feels like Hunter's shouldn't be able to disappear from a fight more often than a Rogue, the only way I'd let that pass is if they hid in bushes and walked around Looney Toons style.

I think one of the challenges Blizzard face with Rogues and Hunters is that the two archetypes actually share the same concept in some areas. It makes sense for a Hunter to camouflage and hide. I think they've done a good job with Camouflage without outshining Stealth. The ability has to be some kind of benefit, otherwise it has no reason to exist.

[Deleted]

Best iteration of a stealth mechanic I have yet seen got the Stalker class in Wildstar.
Tbh, the whole combat is the best I have seen in any mmo, but the Stalker really shined for me as a rogue class fan since DAoC.
Basically you have perma stealth, like in WoW, but with no cooldown. You can even use it in combat, but when you do, it applies a 20 second cooldown. No need for stuff like Vanish.
Playing as a Stalker with the right "talent" choices felt like what a shadowdancer really should feel like. Dancing around your enemy, always in between visibility and stealth.

I would never surrender stealth and as much as pvp was and is imbalanced in WoW, it should not go, because it is iconic and fun.

[Deleted]

Stealth is still a really valuable tool. Yes, if you get attacked you lose a lot of damage. But if you are patient and a bit smart about how you approah people you can really get an advantage right off the bat.

This isn't really a problem with stealth, probably more with how you use it.

[denisgsv]

the main reason i play rogue is stealth , there are many but this is one of the core if not the most important what i like about rogues .

Even during pve missioning or some other scenario

[Deleted]

I've got the very same "problem".
Especially in raid-PvE stealth is almost useless but in PvP it is overpowered.
Meaning Rogues have to suck(relatively speaking) at PvE to not be totally OP in PvP.
I am basicly saying: Rogue is a PvP class, am I right with that?

[Greylan]

I agree with OP, stealth as it is iterated it outdated and should definitely be looked at. I guess that statement applies to a lot of rogue mechanics though.

[Packing an i5]

I've got the very same "problem".
Especially in raid-PvE stealth is almost useless but in PvP it is overpowered.
Meaning Rogues have to suck(relatively speaking) at PvE to not be totally OP in PvP.
I am basicly saying: Rogue is a PvP class, am I right with that?

your not wrong, rogues have always been designed with pvp in mind but rogue crowd control use to also be very useful in dungeons you had to take a rogue or mage with you to every raid in TBC or you were doomed to fail.