Not Happy With Mistweavers :(

[Gungrir]

I tried to ignore all the doomsaying and feel it for myself, but nope. Did my first 6.0 raid last night and the rhythm is off. I'm still holding out, thinking this is just transition problems (it will take me time to adjust) and that it will get better in WoD when we all hit 100, but last night was the first time I just didn't enjoy playing our class.

I don't have any alts on my server, but after the raid last night I seriously considered boosting a different heal class (Holy Priest?) to main in WoD instead of the class that up until now I have loved.

Last night I felt like I was overly reliant on keeping up RJW during AoE healing segments. I just couldn't get on board with the new feel to the Renewing Mist/Uplift interaction.

Played around with Holy Priest (no Holy Nova spam) and it's definitely more fluid to play, you have allot of spells that you can use (Priest seems to be the Swiss Army knife) in almost all situations.

It's definitely not like the old MW but i honestly don't care anymore.

Maybe in a few months/years when Blizzard finally get's a grip and figures out where they want to take Monk in general, i will main him again.

What a damn shame.

[Deleted]

I think the saddest thing is that Monk theorycrafters are the best out there. If I try and find resources and discussion about Holy Priest there is a lot less out there than for MWs.

[Spotnick]

You know if they really wanted do to something cool with monks, they could have made it "the" hybrid class and give a healing stance to all 3 specs, brewmaster being ox/serpent, windwalker being tiger/serpent and mistweavers being crane/serpent.

Crane would have been a ranged dps spec then.

Would have made more sense than this 50/50 crap.

Of course they would never do that because it would open the door to a lot of exploiting, but you get the idea.

I really prefer the holy priest approach, if you go dps, you go dps and there is no passive healing going on..

[Shammyspice]

I guess I didn't roll THREE mistweaver monks because they were "ranged" healers like all the other healers...we could fistweave(I kinda liked chillin' with melee) and also weave in normal mistweaving spells(RnM, uplifts if required) and do decently well in both the healing and dps roles. It felt fluid, especially when you've kind of mastered the balance between dps-to-heal and normal healing.

I understand that classes are tuned to level 100 currently and the clunkiness will likely fade once WoD comes around, but I've ALWAYS felt like as a mistweaver monk, I put way more effort into healing than other classes do and the other classes shine by using 1-2 spells. Mistweavers are so complex in their planned healing, along with contributing to DPS, while FUN to play(at least prior to 6.0), it felt like I had to work way harder to climb the meter over say a priest or shaman...

[Totaltotemic]

I understand that classes are tuned to level 100 currently and the clunkiness will likely fade once WoD comes around, but I've ALWAYS felt like as a mistweaver monk, I put way more effort into healing than other classes do and the other classes shine by using 1-2 spells. Mistweavers are so complex in their planned healing, along with contributing to DPS, while FUN to play(at least prior to 6.0), it felt like I had to work way harder to climb the meter over say a priest or shaman...

That's really been par for the course for the Monk class. It has the most complex tank, a deceptively complex DPS, and by far the most complex healer.

There's kind of been an everlasting battle though where people think that just because something is hard to play, it should automatically be overpowered as soon as you become good at it. That has historically never worked though because WoW frankly isn't that difficult of a game and given a few months on a single patch and a lot of people end up becoming experts. Realistically, the only way to balance a super-hard spec is to make it so that at absolute mastery it is only very slightly better than other specs, so that if you're almost perfect (but not quite) you're balanced. This is where Feral Druids have sat for who knows how long (until now anyways), and it seems to work out pretty well.

Honestly though, if you don't like having to put in a lot more effort and be more skilled to achieve comparable results to other classes just because a rock could play them, then maybe Monk isn't really for you. That's kind of been the history of the class for its short existence so far, and it's probably not going to change any time soon. It can be annoying sometimes, but most people that still play MW play it because the fun of playing an actually engaging spec outweighs the easy power from rolling their faces on Holy Nova. If it's not that fun for you, you'd probably have more fun with another healer.

[Keiyra]

I guess I didn't roll THREE mistweaver monks because they were "ranged" healers like all the other healers...we could fistweave(I kinda liked chillin' with melee) and also weave in normal mistweaving spells(RnM, uplifts if required) and do decently well in both the healing and dps roles. It felt fluid, especially when you've kind of mastered the balance between dps-to-heal and normal healing.

The Paradigm has changed and that sort of fluid interweaving of dps and healing in the way you are used to no longer exists. Period. You either have to adapt to the way it is now, or move on (to a new class/spec or new game) - because odds are its never coming back. Not saying you don't have the right to miss the old style and to deplore the new stuff. I understand your frustration (even share parts of it) but in the end you gotta get over it and move on.

it felt like I had to work way harder to climb the meter over say a priest or shaman...

If you had fun playing that spec, if you didn't hold your raid back, and if you weren't benched because of your class/spec, then does it really matter where you are on the meter? Not that I disagree btw, I totally felt like I was working a lot harder on my monk, but I was also having a LOT more fun than healing on some other specs (without hurting my raids progression). Just think sometimes people are too obsessed with meter placement.

[Kuruption]

Honestly though, if you don't like having to put in a lot more effort and be more skilled to achieve comparable results to other classes just because a rock could play them, then maybe Monk isn't really for you. That's kind of been the history of the class for its short existence so far, and it's probably not going to change any time soon. It can be annoying sometimes, but most people that still play MW play it because the fun of playing an actually engaging spec outweighs the easy power from rolling their faces on Holy Nova. If it's not that fun for you, you'd probably have more fun with another healer.

This is why I was planning on sticking with the spec before the Uplift buff when we were pretty bad. I really enjoy the spec, and as long as I'm not a hindrance to my raid, I'll keep playing it.

[Deleted]

Crane stance seems totally off...

I do like MAX 5k dps on dummies, so i heal about the same..

A dps does like 20k+ on dummies.

I thought if was planned to be like 50% of a dps'er and 50% of a healer

EDIT: i have about 560 item lvl (569 weapon)

[Volibear]

Crane stance seems totally off...

I do like MAX 5k dps on dummies, so i heal about the same..

A dps does like 20k+ on dummies.

I thought if was planned to be like 50% of a dps'er and 50% of a healer

EDIT: i have about 560 item lvl (569 weapon)

Level 100 talents smooth things out and bring both healing and DPS aspects of crane stance up to where they should be (if not a little bit higher).

[Deleted]

Level 100 talents smooth things out and bring both healing and DPS aspects of crane stance up to where they should be (if not a little bit higher).

Cant Wait, then they only need to make PvP power affect Crane stance damage, and we are golden

[Geodew]

Our mastery is even worse than 5.4.8. 30% mastery only 5%(always bad luck)-11%(seldom) of your healing done. In wow5.4, 0 mastery could easily do that.

I'm seeing 11-13% +5% from 2set very consistently, actually. Not using Detonate. Looks like about a 50% pickup rate.

I dont know whether our uplift needs a buff or holy nova of Disc Priest needs a nerf.

Almost surely the latter AFAIK.

Our uplift is much worse than Holy nova.

One uplift, 3 gcd in average (the first 2 gcd for 2 chi, the last cast uplift) , 8% mana (2 chi is about 8% mana), 1.5 casting time. 165% Spell power (6 targets) , 165% * 6 = 990%. 1 gcd 330% Spell power .
One holy nova, 1 gcd, 1.6% mana, no casting time, 112.5% Spell power (5 targets). 112.5% * 5 = 562.5 % . 1 gcd 562.5% Spell power .

You're not including healing from generators, which nowadays is nontrivial HPS

[apepi]

I just want to mention something blizzard(celest) has said to you guys:

Mistweaving is a very different healing style from other healers. It isn't the best fit for everyone, and that's fine (even good). I think the biggest difference is the indirectness. That may not suit you, and may suit others.

Fistweaving has never been viable and most likely never will until it does similar healing to atonement. If you have enough time to properly dps (for whatever reason, most likely bored), theres no reason to bring a "fistweaver" to begin with. I can see this working for casual guilds that bring more healers than needed.

But the thing is, you totally could if you had a good response time. Most people don't eve gcd cap themselves as monks, it is the difference from the good and the bad monks. It is very hard to fistweave while healing normally, but it can be done. The gcd thing kind of reminded me of resto druid back in wotlk, you could destroy heal meters if you squeezed every last bit you could get.

[Geodew]

What about the addition of the healing done by the Chi generators?
Say you cast Soothing, and two Surgings on the tank to build your two chi.

Spewing something back out from the 6.0 guide thread here:

0.5sec Soothing GCD ends, cast Surging
1 sec Soothing ticks
2 sec Soothing ticks
2 sec Cast Surging
3 sec Soothing ticks
3.5sec cast Uplift
5 sec Uplift goes off.

You get an extra half a second (3.33GCDs total) but you have 114.75*3% SP healing from Soothing, and 304.33*2% SP healing from Surging.

Total healing for 3.33sec GCD is:

Soothing - 344.25%
Surging - 608.66%
Uplift - 990%
Total - 1942.91%

Total SP% healing for 1 GCD - 583.45%

Feel free to correct any math faults there, but I'm pretty confident I got it right.

You only did one Surging, that's a chi negative rotation :P

[Totaltotemic]

I just want to mention something blizzard(celest) has said to you guys:

Mistweaving is a very different healing style from other healers. It isn't the best fit for everyone, and that's fine (even good). I think the biggest difference is the indirectness. That may not suit you, and may suit others.

That was totally different though. He's talking about playstyle, not simply being harder to play. Someone may like everything about the MW spec but feel disheartened when they have to go all out but results don't look like they were trying any harder than someone else. What he was specifically referring to was the inner workings of the spec itself, not comparing against other players.

Frankly, I don't think healers should ever have comparing numbers to other healers to prove that they are "the best" as their main drive, that's what the DPS role is for.

What we are seeing a lot of is people that simply misidentified what the spec was (and in a lot of cases misidentifying what it is at 100, thinking level 90 things are at all relevant to how WoD will work) and think it should be whatever their vision of it was.

• I should be able to fistweave whenever I want and slip it in between heals

This was never something that mattered when you were trying to be the most effective. No, that random Jab/TP was never very meaningful in terms of damage done, at least no more than someone spamming Wrath in their downtime. It may have felt nice, but probably never accomplished anything. If it did, you would have been abusing CJL, not Jab/TP.

• Well, when I did want to slip in damage CJL did a great job and now I have to go into Crane to do the same thing!

Uh, no. Randomly CJLing was never good damage either. The best "lightningweavers" were the ones that wore the DPS cloak, DPS trinkets, and basically non-stop channeled CJL. This was also only ever viable in 10 man, if someone cared about that in a 25 man they just grabbed another Disc Priest to do the same thing for more healing.

• Healing in Serpent is so slow now, it feels like I have to do everything 10 seconds in advance if I want to heal

I don't even know what to say to people with this concern, it's like they don't realize that in the entirety of MoP a MW without TFT running was worthless. Maybe they're former 10 man raiders now converting to 20 man and realizing that they don't just have ReM up all the time on the entire raid? MW was always about thinking 5 steps ahead of the encounter, most of the buttons you'd press were just building chi and spreading ReM for the 30% of the fight where Uplift didn't suck. Maybe pressing buttons that didn't really do anything the rest of the time was some kind of placebo that made them feel important and now they're so attached to Uplift being the only spell that mattered that they don't realize things like Soothing Mist actually do a lot of healing and that the entire spec isn't just about the chi spenders anymore.

___


Realistically, the main differences to MW are that they removed TFT (I barely acknowledge new-TFT's existence) and took that immense high and immense low based on TFT and spread them out all of the time in Serpent, so MW is no longer bouncing between worthless and "pretty good" based on what phase of the moon you're in at the time.

The other biggest difference was the exact opposite for fistweaving, instead of the ability to do it whenever (which was generally terrible and never useful) it's all condensed into one stance in exchange for being a lot more powerful (with level 100 talents anyways, level 90 can go die in a fire as far as I'm concerned) so that you can look at a fight and make a good decision of whether your healing is needed at the moment or not.

Then the last most significant difference is a general shifting of power away from chi spenders and into literally everything else. Now, Soothing + Surging + Surging does about as much total healing as Uplift does instead of being a fraction of Uplift's healing. The absurd suggestion of glyphing Surging and hard-casting it makes my head spin when a single tick of Soothing (plus the Statue) does almost as much healing as the Surging itself and only costs 0.5 seconds.


People are having a lot of trouble with MW because:

1) This is level 90, and 6.0 was not designed with level 90 in mind. No multistrike, no level 100 talents, no mana restrictions, and SoO being an utter joke all make level 90 totally invalid for design comparisons. No one will care about level 90 a month from now, no one even cares about level 90 balance now because it's not like you can't clear Mythic SoO if you did before.

2) People have warped perceptions of what fistweaving was before and what it is now. Overgearing content or abusing the fact that 10 mans never needed two full healers for most fights never made solely fistweaving "as viable as a real healer", that's a silly idea. The entire design of it is that it would be overpowered if you did as much as a normal healer plus damage on top of that, you should feel like you have weak healing in Crane. As with #1 though, warped perceptions of what Crane is in 6.0 are a problem when you're experiencing it without an entire talent row. All Monk specs feel weird without the level 100 talents because they weren't designed for play without them, even the developers don't care much about level 90 play in 6.0.

3) People have a hard time realizing that "spam chi spenders to get to Uplift" isn't the optimal way to play anymore. I've looked at quite a few logs of MWs in 6.0 SoO and the ones doing almost no healing are also the ones I see using Expel Harm on cooldown (when they have practically infinite mana) or hard casting Surging and thinking that's supposed to do something. Chi just isn't that valuable anymore, you don't need to sacrifice half of your healing just to Uplift more.

4) PvP is just completely screwed. For anyone majorly into PvP annoyed with MW, I'm sorry, but most of this post simply doesn't apply to you. No only is PvP right now extremely messed up anyways, but MW in particular has dumb things like the only dispellable Greater Heal in the game and a core rotational heal that is basically worthless on individual targets (compare ReM to Holy Shock/Penance/Swiftmend on a single target). MW just sucks in PvP, and Healing Sphere being utterly broken was the only thing keeping it afloat. It's not like any of these problems came out of thin air though, they should have been obvious as soon as you saw Healing Sphere being removed.
___

That's about it for my long rant, but please, just chill until you have Pool of Mists as a talent. It literally fixes 90% of the problems with the spec, and as terrible of a design as that is, it's what MW is actually designed to have the option of using instead of no level 100 talent at all. Also try to take off the rose-colored glasses when it comes to fistweaving for damage, it has almost always been terrible.

[Geodew]

Honestly, if they still had uplift as being instant and gave ReM a cast time, and replaced soothing mists with something decent that can effectively and reliably generate chi on a cast, then mistweavers would finally not be the clunkiest healer to have existed since 4.3 holy paladin.

I just explained why I think that's a really bad idea in the post you just quoted, and you didn't counter it at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Last night I felt like I was overly reliant on keeping up RJW during AoE healing segments. I just couldn't get on board with the new feel to the Renewing Mist/Uplift interaction.

Really? That was already true in 5.4. It feels almost the exact same except we're doing somewhat less overheal because of the new healing model and smart-heal jumps. Plus SooM-Surgings feel powerful now. With the hard nerfs to SoO though, absorbs will take the cake again until BRF/HM.

It doesn't even feel that much slower for me because in near-BiS I have 30% Haste (forget if that's raid buffed or not, but I think not), where 50% is the GCD cap. That will, of course, change in a matter of weeks, even for players in Mythic gear.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the saddest thing is that Monk theorycrafters are the best out there. If I try and find resources and discussion about Holy Priest there is a lot less out there than for MWs.

a bit off-topic, but try howtopriest.com I think

[Pucek]

4) PvP is just completely screwed. For anyone majorly into PvP annoyed with MW, I'm sorry, but most of this post simply doesn't apply to you. No only is PvP right now extremely messed up anyways, but MW in particular has dumb things like the only dispellable Greater Heal in the game and a core rotational heal that is basically worthless on individual targets (compare ReM to Holy Shock/Penance/Swiftmend on a single target). MW just sucks in PvP, and Healing Sphere being utterly broken was the only thing keeping it afloat. It's not like any of these problems came out of thin air though, they should have been obvious as soon as you saw Healing Sphere being removed.

This makes me feel totally worthless in any PvP now (not sure if only MW case or healing model in general), but what you're saying is that in case of PvP it doesn't get better for MW even at 100?

[Deleted]

carried 5 man heroics all the time as fistweaver... Heal - dps - tank top of all on recount HOOH

I /could and still can solo 5 man heroics. That doesn't mean much man.

[Volibear]

You only did one Surging, that's a chi negative rotation :P

There's two there? First cast at 0.5sec, second cast at 2sec.

304.33% * 2 = 608.66% SP healing from the two.

[Deleted]

Crane stance seems totally off...

I do like MAX 5k dps on dummies, so i heal about the same..

A dps does like 20k+ on dummies.

I thought if was planned to be like 50% of a dps'er and 50% of a healer

EDIT: i have about 560 item lvl (569 weapon)

Show me DPS doing 20k+ on dummy lvl 90. Please do. No cleaving or aeo. If you can't I call it BS.

[Volibear]

Show me DPS doing 20k+ on dummy lvl 90. Please do. No cleaving or aeo. If you can't I call it BS.

I can do one better, Iron Juggernaut. Single target, with movement.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...e-done&fight=7