Pros and cons in between DKs and Paladins in PVP?

[Ragaflask]

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons between DKs and Paladins for Rated battlegrounds,arenas and the Ashran area. My friends normally roll with a rogue, feral druid and a warlock. I want to know at 100, in between the two. Who has the biggest toolset to survive, assist friends or team mates and still be able to put a hurtin' on someone?

[Saverem]

DKs have better self survivability and burst, Pallies have better group utility.

So, I'd take Pally for 3s and 5s and DKs for 2s or if you wanna go solo queue.

[Ragaflask]

DKs have better self survivability and burst, Pallies have better group utility.

So, I'd take Pally for 3s and 5s and DKs for 2s or if you wanna go solo queue.

I know there is a HUGE debate in between Frost and unholy right now about who has more survivability and burst. What's your take on it? From what I've seen so far, Frost DKs definitely have it all at the moment but having a pet to do a ranged kick and what not would be a bad idea.

[Laeryn]

In terms of survivability, I'd say both specs are even. UDK seems to have the edge when it comes to PVP because they can really chase someone down with deathcoil, pet charge/stun etc, where as frost doesn't have that added bonus of having a pet. Frost is basically the same as it's every been, very easy to play and easy to master, but not so good when playing against people who know what they are doing. UDK is still easy to pay, hard to master, but very rewarding.

This is all my opinion of course. Not hard fact.

Paladins.. have amazing off healing. At least right now. Their off healing at level 100 is OK, not on par with feral, but still OK. They have better team utility, with BoP and other things like that. Where as DK's can't really help teammates at all.. unless you want that deathcoil glyph.. which..is a waste, imo. As a pally you have the safety net that is bubble, which is always nice.

Utility and off healing with decent burst vs Great burst, meh team utility.

[Ragaflask]

In terms of survivability, I'd say both specs are even. UDK seems to have the edge when it comes to PVP because they can really chase someone down with deathcoil, pet charge/stun etc, where as frost doesn't have that added bonus of having a pet. Frost is basically the same as it's every been, very easy to play and easy to master, but not so good when playing against people who know what they are doing. UDK is still easy to pay, hard to master, but very rewarding.

This is all my opinion of course. Not hard fact.

Paladins.. have amazing off healing. At least right now. Their off healing at level 100 is OK, not on par with feral, but still OK. They have better team utility, with BoP and other things like that. Where as DK's can't really help teammates at all.. unless you want that deathcoil glyph.. which..is a waste, imo. As a pally you have the safety net that is bubble, which is always nice.

Utility and off healing with decent burst vs Great burst, meh team utility.

Thank you for the help and information. I think I will try out the paladin utility since I will be out in Ashran with my friends. I've seen offhealing save many of matches, games etc...

[Deleted]

What I don't like about dk:
*Blood Tap. Something to watch for in addition to runes and rune power? Just what I wanted, even more crap to think about. The worst part is that it's mandatory as the other options are bad choices.
*Blood Stance. Sure, always wanted to gain resources a lot slower and in a not fun way. Also mandatory to be in blood stance 24/7 unless you got a healer or you're not focused, which in casual PVP is highly unlikely.
*Conversion. Excellent, in addition to being in Blood Stance and getting death runes and resources a lot slower, now I have to spend what little rune power I get on a self buff that continually drains it, meaning I'm probably not gonna get any rune power dumping attacks. Thank goodness Death Pact is better today but I wouldn't count on Blizzard not trying to shove Conversion down our throats again.

Ret paladin has a way more straightforward gameplay, more similar to warrior gameplay, while dk gameplay is similar to sub rogue in complexity and, imo, not that fun. I would play ret paladin, in fact I think I will too.

[Hand Banana]

Ret paladin has a way more straightforward gameplay, more similar to warrior gameplay, while dk gameplay is similar to sub rogue in complexity and, imo, not that fun. I would play ret paladin, in fact I think I will too.

I would HEAVILY disagree with this statement. Dks are damage bots, more than warriors even. Literally the only thing you need to worry about besides doing damage is not being out of position (because of their crap mobility) and dark sim'ing useful stuff. They are also nigh-unstoppable now with disarm removal, desecrated breaking roots, and not losing any of their 4 trinkets. Rets have to be more aware of things in general since they are squishier and have to have offhealing or peeling ready for teammates. Dks rotation and rune management may be more difficult, but thats a good thing.

Rogues are nothing like either of them also.

[Gigana]

DKs: better dmg, more survivability. Death grip is invaluable for RBG targer caller.

Retri: more healing on team and support abilities, better mobility.

[Rucati]

If you want to do RBGs roll DK, they're by far the strongest melee spec because of Death Grip and that won't change. Other melee is still strong, don't get me wrong, but Death Grip alone makes at least one DK just about mandatory for RBGs.

In arenas I'd say both are strong, Ret is good with off healing and good damage, while DK is a bit more consistent damage, arguably more survivability (ret has bubble, but DK can live longer with shorter CD abilities), and is has TSG which will almost definitely be strong in 3s in WoD because cleaves are gonna be quite good.

[Skarssen]

What I don't like about dk:
*Blood Tap. Something to watch for in addition to runes and rune power? Just what I wanted, even more crap to think about. The worst part is that it's mandatory as the other options are bad choices.
*Blood Stance. Sure, always wanted to gain resources a lot slower and in a not fun way. Also mandatory to be in blood stance 24/7 unless you got a healer or you're not focused, which in casual PVP is highly unlikely.
*Conversion. Excellent, in addition to being in Blood Stance and getting death runes and resources a lot slower, now I have to spend what little rune power I get on a self buff that continually drains it, meaning I'm probably not gonna get any rune power dumping attacks. Thank goodness Death Pact is better today but I wouldn't count on Blizzard not trying to shove Conversion down our throats again.

Ret paladin has a way more straightforward gameplay, more similar to warrior gameplay, while dk gameplay is similar to sub rogue in complexity and, imo, not that fun. I would play ret paladin, in fact I think I will too.

BT is not anywhere near mandatory anymore. It was previously due to NS, which is gone. What exactly do you need on demand death runes for now? Death Siphon? It still sucks.

And blood presence isn't anywhere near mandatory either. It is far weaker than it was, and it considering how badly it hurts your resources...and how much slower resoruces regen now....you are trading a tiny bit of survivability gain for a huge damage loss. Even for unholy BP hurts too much now, since DoTs, DC and ghoul are all much weaker and unholy relies more on strike damage. By all means swap to BP if you are being trained, but sitting in it 24/7 is a dead give away of a bad DK.

[rda]

DKs: always viable, sometimes OP. Safe bet.

Palas: holy only. Rets have been fine in just a few seasons. Not a safe bet.

[Deleted]

DKs: always viable, sometimes OP. Safe bet.

For arena maybe. In wpvp and duels dks were mid tier in both cata and mop, and frost always sucked ass.

[Gigana]

For arena maybe. In wpvp and duels dks were mid tier in both cata and mop, and frost always sucked ass.

Duels are irrelevant, and any class can dominate in world pvp or random BGs simply because 99% of the opponents suck or are undergeared.

As far as actual pvp goes, DKs got it great when it comes to RBGs (a good DK TC is worth his weight in gold), and they usually have at least a few viable comps for 3v3 each season.

[rda]

For arena maybe. In wpvp and duels dks were mid tier in both cata and mop, and frost always sucked ass.

Yes, that was for arenas. I don't care at all for "wpvp" and don't care much for duels (not with this balance).

[Gigana]

Arena-wise DKs have had *bad* seasons. Season 15 for example was harsh on DKs. But then, the same season was harsh on paladins too (any spec).

Just make sure that, whichever class you chose, you roll a human.

[Monkz]

It´s two very different playstyles.

[Deleted]

BT is not anywhere near mandatory anymore. It was previously due to NS, which is gone. What exactly do you need on demand death runes for now? Death Siphon? It still sucks.

It's still mandatory for burst. It's one thing to just mash scourge strike whenever RNG decides, if you took any of the other talents, and a whole other thing to have a high BT stack and turn it all into death runes and chain 4 or 5 scourge strikes into something, your damage is less steady and more bursty if you take BT which is basically for pvp, and more steady if you take the others.

About Blood Stance. I've seen some rogues whine that dks become immortal the moment they switch to Blood Stance, they may be exaggerating but it goes to show BS does something and quite a bit of it if it makes rogues whine.

[Skarssen]

Can't say why they feel that way. My guess is its hyperbole. BP gave a big advantage when using conversion, but conversion is so pathetically weak now I can' t imagine anyone taking it. Both the stamina and armor gain are lower (particularly armor) for BP, just doesn't seem worth the damage loss unless you are trying to survive burst, but then you swap of of it when going offensive anyway.

And I totally get that BT has advantages; its all I use in PVP. But I don't think it is truly mandatory anymore, especially for frost. Seen plenty of good players who aren't using it anymore.

Anyway, ret and both DK specs are great right now, I just don't know how long it will last.