Am I getting this right?

[madmanx]

A lot of players are scrubs, they don't raid. A lot of players are veteran players and they usually don't raid anymore. A HUGE amount of players just pay their bill to play for 15 min a month...they haven't even heard about raids.


1 million seems high.

[Apexis]

Not surprised in the least and it just goes to prove that just how many people are completely out of touch with the game in which they play. This more than also proves the point why so many flock into the LFR, mostly because they don't want or waste the time with people that bitch and complain about, it is someone else fault that we wiped, having to endlessly sit around wait on people the show up late constantly, still yet to keep their spot, I could go now for the many reason the some 5 or million chose not to raid. Mostly it is time and having to deal with people that have the common sense of a pea. They might be able to press some button better than most, but they truly lack in many other area far more important.

Many that venture to the forums and tell people that they are the best and you are crap are but a actual small minority in this game. This game live and breath because of the people that don't raid, yet they always get the short end of the stick when it comes to actual world content. They usually get the launch of the expansion content and little bit of drip drip stuff to keep them playing. While the people that raid get the actual content. It is not a wonder why so many bitch and complain about a whole of things in this game. Blizzard makes sure they take care about the 1% or so and tell everyone else they really don't matter.

I am sure if most were asked if they would prefer world and dungeon content to the LFR, the LFR would be left in the dust. They were forced into in MoP, because other than dailies the LFR was their main source of both gear and play. Many did not care for the scenarios after first or so times. They offered little in both gear and content, because most people they would join up with were there to grind VP and nothing else.

Problem with dungeons, they have a relatively short life cycle and are about to be overcome in short order do to higher gear, so designing and implementing them cost more than just forcing a bunch of people into the LFR and making them farm it out for a year to get some gear. I personally hate how Blizzard implemented the LFR and the way they sold it made it into the crap it is today.

I would venture to say that pvp is probably not as high as many think it is, the two biggest US PVE realms more than prove that. Queue times are way up as even more flock to them to get off the various PVP ones. They still have to deal with all the dickheads, but at least they don't have sit and waste their time being constantly ganked because someone finds it enjoyable to corpse camp them.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, most people don't raid. There is a common misconception about how raids are so important/vital for an mmo yet its just a vocal minority who makes it that way.

I'm sure WoW could attract/retain more players if it stopped focusing 98% of their resources into raiding.

I am sure far more people would give raiding a chance, but there are far to many people that just don't want to spend there time being rake over the coals for the simplest of mistakes whether they actually made them or not. I know, I just stopped altogether because I could not deal with endless bitching and complaining over the very smallest of things. My child when the young acted better than most of the people I had to raid with. I have done both guild and pug raiding over time and I can say that most of the pugs I were in did less complain and far more raiding.

I guess, I got a bit spoiled in late BC through Wrath in that I was in one guild that did all kinds of things together. From quest/leveling to dungeons and pvp and/or raiding and heroic raiding. That guild was constant capped out and we did something every night together. It did not matter how bad or good you were, everyone was treated with decency and respect. We all got to participate in a slew of activities.

I was sad to see the guild go away, like so many did at the end of Wrath. Many did not like the way the content was shaping up in Cata and the guild/raid leaders quit the game and no one wanted to carry one and slowly we fell apart. That felt like loosing a best friend with this went down and I been looking for such a guild ever since and I have yet to find across 3 realms. I am sure there are a few still out there, but I am not sure where they reside.

This game on a large scale used to be fun, now it more of something you have to do because you are so invested into it, it makes no sense to stop playing. I am getting to the point though that I simply can't take the BS all the numb nuts in this game want to dish out, so maybe WoD will be my last, not sure depends on how it goes going forward. Not hold out much hope given what I been seeing getting closer to launch.

[Maudib]

I am curious what games you think do those things better? I used to raid but haven't since Naxx (aside from a very rare LFR)...I mostly level alts, craft, mog, pet battle, archaeology, achievement hunt, etc. and have yet to find a game that feels as polished or complete in these areas that is F2P or P2P. My closest would probably be GW2, but it still didn't feel like it had as many options and with the frequent updates it was frustrating when you missed a couple weeks whereas most WoW things are around longer before being removed if removed at all. Also, most of the updates play very similar to one another...I've not logged in for several months so maybe they have improved it? Not saying I've tried all the games out there - my internet is too slow to download big MMOs willy nilly but if you've got some suggestions I'd love to look into more.

Main ones I have tried: GW2, Wildstar, TESO, Rift (also decent, but same beefs with variety of activities probably my #3), SWtOR, LoTRO (my #4), probably some others I am forgetting.

Edit: ...totally wasn't making a debate, just asking for some game recommends. /Sigh.

No... WoW is the PERFECT game for you.... and that's my point!!!! Blizzard is constantly giving you those things you love! LOTS of non group related entertainment. The raiding content doesn't take away from that.

Yet people complain that it does take awya form the part of the game the like. It's like sitting down at a Poker table... then constantly annoying the dealer with requests... next thing you know you hear: "Do you have any sevens? Go FISH!"

This game started as a raiding game and evolved into a very large buffet of things to do. But for the love of God, let's not trash raiding because there are LOTS of people that only like that aspect of the game.. myself included.

[Marise]

I am by no means saying trash raiding, I loved raiding Vanilla to Wrath and would not wish it gone just because I don't take part anymore - not sure if you were directing it at me or just quoting me for another reason but wanted to clarify just in case!

[Apexis]

A lot of players are scrubs, they don't raid. A lot of players are veteran players and they usually don't raid anymore. A HUGE amount of players just pay their bill to play for 15 min a month...they haven't even heard about raids.


1 million seems high.

Just because people chose not to raid, does not make them a scrub. I'll bet some don't raid because of people like yourself that calls them scrubs. Being one of these veteran players. There are many reasons I do not raid anymore, but those reasons mostly revolve around people's attitudes towards other people and the ways the choose to treat those people. It is far easier to be an a**, than to extend a hand to help another person out that is obviously having a hard time doing whatever. I am it a point to constantly help others in this game. I am so tired of the people that can't seem to answer a simple questions without raping the person for asking in the first place. Attitude would probably be first on many people's list why they choose not to raid, most say its time just not to get into a pissing contest with some that get all butt hurt when they get called out for always being the dickhead, because they been always allowed to get away with doing so.

- - - Updated - - -

No... WoW is the PERFECT game for you.... and that's my point!!!! Blizzard is constantly giving you those things you love! LOTS of non group related entertainment. The raiding content doesn't take away from that.

Yet people complain that it does take awya form the part of the game the like. It's like sitting down at a Poker table... then constantly annoying the dealer with requests... next thing you know you hear: "Do you have any sevens? Go FISH!"

This game started as a raiding game and evolved into a very large buffet of things to do. But for the love of God, let's not trash raiding because there are LOTS of people that only like that aspect of the game.. myself included.

See the problem is there are a lot of people like yourself that only raid, but get this whole god complex and think they some steer this train forward and keep the wheels greased, when that is far form the case, but yet many thread I have read over time form people that only raid think it is that way and they should somehow be treated differently when they make up so small of the actual populous of the game. It would be one thing if there was not this whole "I am entitled to stuff" complex some chose to have, but we are dealing reality and in real life in the virtual game world. They don't mix well, not to mention all the other baggage that comes with people of various races, nationalities, ethnic background, etc.

The undisputed fact is this game went very casual because the majority of the player base went that way, its very surprising to see Blizzard giving the whole Cata 2.0 another shot, I am sure it will end about the same. People don't want to spend 5 hours doing dungeons for blue quality gear anymore, well at least the majority don't. These HC people think that they run the show and should be the only ones to be able to dictate who get to see that content, it fails so badly mostly because Blizzard has to give these people something or they leave and don't come back and they are they main source of keeping this game going on an on after the raiders have mostly left until the next content patch comes out.

[Tharkkun]

Well considering how massively successful it was for the games first 6(?) years... despite supposedly catering almost entirely to the minority vs these days where they cater predominately to the casual and yet we're still hemorrhaging subs.

anyway...

Still curious if anyone knows if the wowP data is accurate, or if there is a more accurate sources somewhere.

Guy claimed he saw an official post saying wowP data was inaccurate, which I haven't found but would very much like to.

Pretty sure if you dig back through the MMO-champion news pages you'll find the statistics gathered when they crawled the armory pages. There's pie charts and everything.

[MoanaLisa]

Pretty sure if you dig back through the MMO-champion news pages you'll find the statistics gathered when they crawled the armory pages. There's pie charts and everything.

It helps to search the News Forum for the phrase Armory Stats. That will narrow it down a little.

There are a number of charts for how many have completed SoO progression and one that details it all out at all of the difficulty levels.

This one: Percentage of Players that defeated Siege of Orgrimmar bosses.

This one is interesting as it shows the percentage of characters that got to 85 after 10 months of Cataclysm. Probably much lower than one would expect.

You would expect percentages to change as time passes of course. Most of these are months old at the very least. You'll need Javascript enabled to see them. Keep in mind how the data was parsed which is explained in the post and the age of the post before jumping to conclusions.

[SidFwuff]

I'm not sure, this thing in my bank is confusing.

So your proof that you were in Vanilla and can legitimately claim that '[Raiding] was the entire endgame'

...is to link a picture of an item from Vanilla's Endgame that wasn't from raiding.

Okay then. Carry on.

[Marise]

Considering most don't read forums and such I would say publicity is a big issues with getting other games into their pool of potential games to play. It's mostly word of mouth from friends. I read forums and check game sites, but perhaps that's a leftover from my raiding days and I am often the one who recommends a new game to my friends.

I can only speak for myself, but the dealbreaker with ArcheAge for me is PvP, and I don't think I am alone in that. PvP tends to be a very love or hate it subject, and I would say 80% of my casual wow friends hate it. That's just anecdotal given my small circle of friends but at least we've heard of it. That said though I wouldn't consider ArcheAge casual PvP at all. Casual to me would be largely if not entirely optional, does not impair your ability to craft, farm, collect, etc. Another subject entirely. Still a good recommend for many though, no doubt. Almost makes me wish I did like to PvP!

[Miley]

Many in this thread have asked what do people do other than raid. Not everyone unsubs the moment they take a break from the game. My current sub started mid FL and I quit shortly after killing h death wing and didn't even buy mop till mid ToT but never unsubbed. I haven't killed any mop bosses on normal or above. The ~6 months I've played throughout mop I spent doing lfr for the legendary on 2 toons, got those toons almost max geared from flex, got my blood dk to 90, and got my priest max geared from lfr. I spend my other time camping huolon or just not playing. I play a lot of LoL instead. I could easily raid mythic but I don't want to play according to a guild schedule. Many think it's so simple just find a 2night 3hr raid guild. If my guild raided wed/Thursday well what if I just don't feel like playing this Thursday etc. my last guild in DS was m/t/w/th 15hrs a week. I don't want that again.

Before lfr- in TBC raids were only one difficulty - hard. My guild could not even kill the first boss in Kara before the trash respawned. In WotLK raids were very friendly to pugs. I pugged 25ToC normal many times. Pugs could kill at least up to festergut in ICC. Dungeons were incredibly more rewarding. I ran many 5mans for tabard reps, Jp for gear back when you could get tier and pvp sets, jp could be sold as gems, vp could be used to sell bracers or primordial saronites, the chaos orbs at the end boss. Now there is zero reason to do dungeons.

[Sury]

1/7 players choose some form or organized raiding. In an online gaming community that seems surprisingly high to me. If I had to play the guessing game I would put my money on there being far more than 1mil of the active playing base that would frankly be terrified of putting themselves out there in a social aspect regardless of the anonymity that comes with being in the comfort of their own home.

The reason it might not make sense to the part of our community that loves to log in kill some bosses and have a few laughs on vent is simply we don't share that same social anxiety.

Look at the bigger picture and ask this question. Why does anyone chose to pay to play an online game rather than pay to play offline in a more social setting?

There are countless reasons to pay Blizzard for the rather polished product they have to offer. Those reasons must make fiscal sense to those not seeking a formally organized gaming experience.

[ablib]

1 million seems high to me as well.

I don't raid at all, yet I will never run out of things to do in the game. Ever. Even if we go another year without content, I couldn't run out of things to do in the game. The amount of things to do in the game are endless.

I remember a stat Blizzard released semi-recently was that the majority of characters are not at level cap.

[Baconeggcheese]

It helps to search the News Forum for the phrase Armory Stats. That will narrow it down a little.

The thing I never liked about those is it bases it off of 2.5 million accounts.

Unless there's only 2.5 million accounts with 90 toons which is possible, and potentially insane.

[Deleted]

LFR accomplished three things:

1) It provided the raid-like experience for everyone and made it easy to access

It's one of chief reasons Cata & MoP led only back to end-of-Vanilla sub numbers instead of forcing Bliz to make WoW go freemium before MoP.
In a way it's awesome but I still think it would be more appropriate for the game to be freemium.

2) Reduced the desire to clear the content on a higher difficulty

BS. People don't join you because of what you are and how you behave, not because you no longer offer a chance for them to get something desirable.
Even if I felt like running SoO HC a year ago, I'd never come close to you to get that.
Before LFR if I wanted something that would require joining a psycho guild to achieve while current, I'd just wait out and cheese it later. Fortunately back in WotLK progressing and farming ICC did not require that.
Also: back in Vanilla/BC raiders were even tinier minority than they are now.

3) Reduced the number of potential raiders in game for raiding guilds to remain healthy

You and I have a very different definition of healthy. Psycho guilds with militaristic culture and strict hierarchy are a sickness. LFR as a way for casuals to have a taste of content normally available only through that sickness is absolutely awesome. It is the cure. The cure got poisoned by you and yours just like the whole community, but that's a very different story.

The problem was that you could completely gear in LFR with exact models with maybe slight color changes. You rarely saw something someone else had and said "Ohhhh I want that. Hey you! Where did that come from?" Back at the beginning of BC, when I first started playing, I would see raiders in the main cities and I would oooh and aweeee about the gear... it was SOOOO much better than mine and LOOKED epic.

The scrubs paid the same money as you for the content they never consumed and now they have choices. Whoopsie. Much sadness. What an INJUSTICE has been done to the poor snowflakes, who, while still fully subsidized by the casual majority, have lost some means of shoving that fact down their throats.
What a wonderful thing it is that they now regain some of that ability. It will SURELY improve Bliz's ability to produce more high-end content <3

That part of the game is gone.

Hallelujah. All that fucktardery with snowflakes, wannabes and groupies was one big reason I didn't start playing until WotLK despite loving the franchise and being quite interested in trying out the genre. It was depressing to see some of my friends, great people normally, join up and lose several levels in humanity.

However, with WoD there is 20 man Mythic... with UNIQUE models and stats you cannot achieve other than being in a raiding guild. I am hoping this change will build the desire to once again raid.

It won't. As long as the necessity to suffer people like you is the real gate, the numbers won't jump. If mythic becomes something of a middle ground between old normal and heroic, so that casual guilds can progress in a non-discouraging manner, it might end up considerably more used - which won't change your situation in the least however.

To see other people again with loot I cannot easily mimic in LFR... to look at the server #1 progressed guild and think.. man I'd like to earn a place there.

And with all the casuals just sitting in their garrisons and queuing up for LFD/LFR where will you strut in all that hot shit on? I guess you'll just go back to leaving your toon logged in in front of capital city's AH.
Every once in a while our GM will point out a toon to me and say something like "omg look at his gear; of course, he's with XXXX!". So my response is always "and XXXX are who?" because I couldn't care less about ranks and I tend to forget who is currently the shit among those who care. Got my Curve by solotanking Garry in 560 gear and after being asked by the rest of the group if I'm sure I'm geared for that - this and sincere grats from guildies are all the fame I crave.
Also, considering how snowflakes behave in group finders (well, anywhere tbh), the first thing casuals will learn is that a player in rare gear is almost certainly a complete asshole and should be avoided. Why ever come close and suffer them? For somewhat differently looking pixels? No, thanks.
In short, those crowds of scrubs who want to become epic-clad pr0s under your illustrious direction ain't gonna happen. "Sorry".

On the other hand there are so many negative things that are happening with the expansion that it's likely to drop even more subscribers... and in turn more potential raiders. This game hasn't resembled the game I love since Wrath... I sure do miss it.

Awesome. Hopefully those few changes that are not pathetic snowflake pandering on Bliz part will frustrate you and yours enough to make snowflake-centric design completely pointless and a pure cost for the company. Nah, ain't gonna happen. Fret not.

[Otimus]

LFR accomplished three things:

1) It provided the raid-like experience for everyone and made it easy to access

2) Reduced the desire to clear the content on a higher difficulty

3) Reduced the number of potential raiders in game for raiding guilds to remain healthy

The problem was that you could completely gear in LFR with exact models with maybe slight color changes. You rarely saw something someone else had and said "Ohhhh I want that. Hey you! Where did that come from?" Back at the beginning of BC, when I first started playing, I would see raiders in the main cities and I would oooh and aweeee about the gear... it was SOOOO much better than mine and LOOKED epic.

That part of the game is gone. However, with WoD there is 20 man Mythic... with UNIQUE models and stats you cannot achieve other than being in a raiding guild. I am hoping this change will build the desire to once again raid. To see other people again with loot I cannot easily mimic in LFR... to look at the server #1 progressed guild and think.. man I'd like to earn a place there.

On the other hand there are so many negative things that are happening with the expansion that it's likely to drop even more subscribers... and in turn more potential raiders. This game hasn't resembled the game I love since Wrath... I sure do miss it.

The interesting take away there, though, is that more people are doing non-LFR raiding than ever, in the entire history of the game. So I don't really know what you're going on about.

Most people don't want to do organized activities in WoW. They never have. The participation has always been low. The best thing to happen to raiding was flex. The second best was LFR. The third best was tuning down the ease of access in WOTLK.

I think you just have a skewed understanding of how most people play the game, or something. Unless it can be reasonably pugged, very few are gonna raid. (and I Imagine it's all down to social reasons more than anything!)

- - - Updated - - -

The thing I never liked about those is it bases it off of 2.5 million accounts.

Unless there's only 2.5 million accounts with 90 toons which is possible, and potentially insane.

That'd be real interesting to note if true: If it were, one would have to really wonder why Blizzard has spent the last 10 years focusing almost entirely on the endgame, save for Cataclysm.

[Anzen]

I think it's skewed as it doesn't pick up players who aren't in guilds (I don't know how much that constitutes but I'd imagine it adds a good 5-10%).

[Sidewalker]

Agreed. I play a lot, and I stick to LFR for raiding. I don't have the flex time in my schedule to raid consistently. I wish I was a part of that 1 million though!

[Maudib]

It's one of chief reasons Cata & MoP led only back to end-of-Vanilla sub numbers instead of forcing Bliz to make WoW go freemium before MoP.
In a way it's awesome but I still think it would be more appropriate for the game to be freemium.


BS. People don't join you because of what you are and how you behave, not because you no longer offer a chance for them to get something desirable.
Even if I felt like running SoO HC a year ago, I'd never come close to you to get that.
Before LFR if I wanted something that would require joining a psycho guild to achieve while current, I'd just wait out and cheese it later. Fortunately back in WotLK progressing and farming ICC did not require that.
Also: back in Vanilla/BC raiders were even tinier minority than they are now.


You and I have a very different definition of healthy. Psycho guilds with militaristic culture and strict hierarchy are a sickness. LFR as a way for casuals to have a taste of content normally available only through that sickness is absolutely awesome. It is the cure. The cure got poisoned by you and yours just like the whole community, but that's a very different story.


The scrubs paid the same money as you for the content they never consumed and now they have choices. Whoopsie. Much sadness. What an INJUSTICE has been done to the poor snowflakes, who, while still fully subsidized by the casual majority, have lost some means of shoving that fact down their throats.
What a wonderful thing it is that they now regain some of that ability. It will SURELY improve Bliz's ability to produce more high-end content <3


Hallelujah. All that fucktardery with snowflakes, wannabes and groupies was one big reason I didn't start playing until WotLK despite loving the franchise and being quite interested in trying out the genre. It was depressing to see some of my friends, great people normally, join up and lose several levels in humanity.

It won't. As long as the necessity to suffer people like you is the real gate, the numbers won't jump. If mythic becomes something of a middle ground between old normal and heroic, so that casual guilds can progress in a non-discouraging manner, it might end up considerably more used - which won't change your situation in the least however.

And with all the casuals just sitting in their garrisons and queuing up for LFD/LFR where will you strut in all that hot shit on? I guess you'll just go back to leaving your toon logged in in front of capital city's AH.
Every once in a while our GM will point out a toon to me and say something like "omg look at his gear; of course, he's with XXXX!". So my response is always "and XXXX are who?" because I couldn't care less about ranks and I tend to forget who is currently the shit among those who care. Got my Curve by solotanking Garry in 560 gear and after being asked by the rest of the group if I'm sure I'm geared for that - this and sincere grats from guildies are all the fame I crave.
Also, considering how snowflakes behave in group finders (well, anywhere tbh), the first thing casuals will learn is that a player in rare gear is almost certainly a complete asshole and should be avoided. Why ever come close and suffer them? For somewhat differently looking pixels? No, thanks.
In short, those crowds of scrubs who want to become epic-clad pr0s under your illustrious direction ain't gonna happen. "Sorry".


Awesome. Hopefully those few changes that are not pathetic snowflake pandering on Bliz part will frustrate you and yours enough to make snowflake-centric design completely pointless and a pure cost for the company. Nah, ain't gonna happen. Fret not.

Man was that ever a wall of pantybunching. You have what you want in game.. and now those who enjoy what raiding used to be and the motivations that drive them will rejoice that it is added back in WoD.

I'm sorry you will be upset because you choose to not join a "psycho guild" but want the rewards for doing so. At least I am not upset that people have the insane title and pirate hat... because I am not willing to grind a bajillion rep... I'm happy those people found something in game they love... it doesn't take away from my game at all. Just because I pay my $15 a month doesn't make me entitled to that title or reward... it gives me the choice to earn that or not. The choice to be a part of a team of people who do want those Mythic rewards is yours.. and you choose not to. No reason to call the grapes sour.

To be honest, I'd have to say that it's the game becoming filled with bitter people who hate to see other people enjoy the game a different way that brings the game down so much.

[Baconeggcheese]

I think it's skewed as it doesn't pick up players who aren't in guilds (I don't know how much that constitutes but I'd imagine it adds a good 5-10%).

That would make sense, and lines up more with the MMOC sample size numbers where they're talking more like 25%+ of the playerbase.

The interesting take away there, though, is that more people are doing non-LFR raiding than ever, in the entire history of the game. So I don't really know what you're going on about.

Based on what? Do you have evidence supporting this?

People keep saying this, and I've been asking for data since the OP. Please back your statements...

[Deleted]

Man was that ever a wall of pantybunching.

More local idioms please, we're all from the same little Apallachian town after all.

You have what you want in game..

ORLY?!!! OMG Thank You! Quickly logging in to check if I have what I want in the game...
Now wait a moment, where did I say what I want in game, care to link?

and now those who enjoy what raiding used to be and the motivations that drive them will rejoice that it is added back in WoD.

I like your optimism. If I enjoyed blatant hypocrisy I'd follow your posts to see how happy you are in Draenor with all the changes and how well will it satisfy your expectations.
My own feeling is what raiding used to be will never come back anyway unless WoW goes freemium and you pay extra money for your exclusive extra content.

I'm sorry you will be upset[ because you choose to not join a "psycho guild" but want the rewards for doing so.

I won't, so don't be sorry, it's bad for your health.

At least I am not upset that people have the insane title and pirate hat...

You mean someone is? Who is it, your mom?

because I am not willing to grind a bajillion rep... I'm happy those people found something in game they love...

You are, however, upset about things people could do without ever getting within a mile from you, like getting nice looking bonus-bearing tier pieces from LFR. Nuff said.

it doesn't take away from my game at all. Just because I pay my $15 a month doesn't make me entitled to that title or reward... it gives me the choice to earn that or not. The choice to be a part of a team of people who do want those Mythic rewards is yours.. and you choose not to. No reason to call the grapes sour.

I always loved rhetorical acrobatics of parasites. <3 I can easily imagine how hard it could be to look at the mirror and see a tapeworm and not try to come up with some excuses, but I'm not going to stop laughing at them - it was for a time my gut you drained resources from, after all.
Who said I'm not a part of a team who wants to raid Mythic? Who said I'm not enjoying the rewards of higher raid difficulties? I'm just stayin at safe distance from snowflakes.
Short fact: you are subsidized by people you seem to resent. They have the same right to consume entertainment they financed as you do. They just don't want to turn a video game into their second job.
I also love the level of your egocentrism. Apparently me stating that I'd never join a psycho guild built on people like you will somehow prevent me from Mythic raiding. Well, I have a bit of really shocking news: not only psychos ran 5.X Heroics and not only psychos will run WoD Mythics.
I used to be one of the majority of sponsors for more than half of MoP. Than I found a nice casual raiding guild and quickly moved over to the sponsored minority. If I ever start degenerating towards trying to take anything away from that majority (LFR epics, LFR sets, Ordos loot, "welfare" cape, attunementless raiding, anything), I hope someone will be around to shoot me between the eyes before I start spouting this kind of crap.

To be honest, I'd have to say that it's the game becoming filled with bitter people who hate to see other people enjoy the game a different way that brings the game down so much.

Yes, it's quite sad that the game has, from its begginng, been "enriched" by bitter people who hate to see others enjoy the game despite not suffering the life in a hardcore raiding guild. It's very, very unfortunate that some bitter people get butthurt because LFRunners could get epics, nice trinkets and tier sets similar to what hardcore raiders got, if a lot worse in terms of power. It's much worse that blizdevs recycled from the axed Titan project seem to share your bitterness (although I can understand where theirs is coming from).
I don't envy hardcores their hardcore rewards.
I don't spit on full casuals just because they don't want their entertainment to become too much more than that.
I just have a bit of spite for hypocrites who explicitly enjoy a parasitic arrangement where 7M people pay for content 1M actually consume.
And I like to express it in places they dominate, like this forum <3 As a bit of reality check.