Beta PvP Dmg: +33%(Oct 24th change)

[PrairieChicken]

They will put back resil because they are too stubborn to separate pve and pvp.

[Hottage]

2 second burst kills in 3vs3?

Hah. I used to 2 second burst people solo at level 60...

Also: arena is balanced around three people on both teams. Therefore there should be others disrupting that burst damage as well.

[Rucati]

I mean, your video doesn't really prove much.

If one person stands still and uses no abilities they die fast, okay, that's kind of how it has always been and will always be. You can say that with another person he would have died faster, sure, but you're assuming he has no partners.

PvP isn't about letting the enemy tunnel your team and never trying to stop them, it's about using your own skills to stop react to the enemy, that's kind of the difference between PvE and PvP.

Let's assume for a second this guy in 3s was playing say, RDruid/Frost Mage/SPriest against say your TSG or PHDK, you stun the RDruid, he pops barkskin because he's not an idiot, then his Priest can fear for him, your Warrior breaks it and you get dispelled, then his Mage freezes both of you and the SPriest blanket silences your Paladin, so the Druid walks away.

The damage in that video doesn't seem bad at all, in fact it seems incredibly manageable if you assume the Druid has not retarded partners. I have a bit more hope for WoD now than I had before, honestly.

[PrairieChicken]

I'm sure that all the people who are saying it is fine will be yelling omzgg too much burst epicfail blizz qq in live.

[Prode]

Let's assume for a second this guy in 3s was playing say, RDruid/Frost Mage/SPriest against say your TSG or PHDK, you stun the RDruid, he pops barkskin because he's not an idiot, then his Priest can fear for him, your Warrior breaks it and you get dispelled, then his Mage freezes both of you and the SPriest blanket silences your Paladin, so the Druid walks away.

And all this happens in 2 sec. Because you're talking about a 2 sec burst which means you're dead ~at the start of enemy's 2nd GCD so basically die almost after 1 GCD.

But go ahead list all that fascinating things your teammates do within this time as a REACTION.

The damage in that video doesn't seem bad at all, in fact it seems incredibly manageable if you assume the Druid has not retarded partners. I have a bit more hope for WoD now than I had before, honestly.

I wonder what Font Size I should've taken for geniuses like yourself to figure that this burst is not the subject here. This burst x2, then added 33% dmg, then added exponential burst value and we arrive to why you should reevaluate.

[Snuggli]

WoW PvP revolves around people using defensive CDs to react to offensive CDs. You win games when either people don't manage their CDs properly, you pressure them enough to force CDs without offensive CDs or they don't use defensives at all. In my opinion, all of these 3 possibilities are perfectly valid and I enjoy arena because of this structure.

Your video shows nothing. Yes, sometimes the tuning is off and yes sometimes there is some outliers (taste for blood warriors, frost bomb mages, stampede bugged hunters, heroic cunning + legendary wep RLS, etc etc) but for the most part, if you're a healer and somebody uses a 1 minute CD offensive spell and you use a 1 minute CD defensive spell you should be able to survive and the game will continue as normal. To apply this to your video, you blew everything and the Druid used nothing (and his partner didn't peel) - he deserves to die in a 5 second stun (and he almost survived). If anything this damage is TOO LOW for the circumstances.

If healers can survive all of your burst without using a single spell, then the game would be in an awful state and every single match would hit dampening.

[Relicra]

If they have removed the damage reduction buff it is probably because they have seen how much a lot of people are enjoying the current pacing of the game at 90 and are trying to replicate it at 100 whereas with the 25% damage debuff it is very slow paced.

You also picked a poor example of showing what average damage was like. DK damage during pillar with procs and breathe of sindragosa is extremely strong AND you used empower rune weapon. Probably the highest possible damage any class could currently do, on a druid which are relatively squishy without cds, who didn't use any CDs.

[Terahertz]

Seems like wotlk pace to me, which is fine by me to a certain degree. It means more planning ahead and more elaborate strategies which would otherwise be stupid to do in an expansion like MoP.

In the video the other moonkin focused on the mage. You could say the mage helped the DK win the game by keeping the moonkin away from peeling for the druid. Granted the DK still had his desecrated ground, besides that the druid only had a regrowth hot up and a rejuv. If he had a lifebloom on himself and stood in a mushroom he might not have died. Besides that if he had used barkskin he wouldn't have died at all.

Quite honestly it'd be the same on MoP. If an rdruid has no hots and doesn't use barkskin/cenarian ward before I stun him, he'd be guaranteed dead.

Edit: I know that this won't really stay like this, but you'd have to remember that even in a 3v3, triple dps vs double dps+healer, the other two DPS could potentially do the same to one of the other DPS.

[Prode]

Your video shows nothing. didn't peel) - he deserves to die in a 5 second stun (and he almost survived). If anything this damage is TOO LOW for the circumstances.

At least I'd expect a Moderator to read my post before replying.

This post is NOT about 5 second stun, NOT about 5 second burst, no you CAN'T react to 2 second kill, no 2 seconds kill is NOT low. Please read the OP.

[Relicra]

At least I'd expect a Moderator to read my post before replying.

This post is NOT about 5 second stun, NOT about 5 second burst, no you CAN'T react to 2 second kill, no 2 seconds kill is NOT low. Please read the OP.

You should take your own advice and reread Snugglis post. Wow pvp is a totally reactionary game. If you don't react you deserve to die. If the druid has done ANYTHING he would have lasted longer than the ~ 6 seconds in your video. If he had even had one single hot rolling that is extra time.

Your point being if it was 33% faster and then 2x faster involving 2 dps that it would equate a 2 second kill time. Yes. Theoretically it would. However if you put yourself in a situation where you have no possible move across your entire team to prevent being killed off in a maximum burst window from the opponent team, you deserve to lose. Period. You got outplayed.

If you lose in the first 2 seconds of a game, well, more than likely you fucked up too.

[Prode]

However if you put yourself in a situation where you have no possible move across your entire team to prevent being killed off in a maximum burst window from the opponent team, you deserve to lose. Period. You got outplayed.

Not sure when you gonna get it when this burst becomes 2s, it does NOT become compressed, no you DON'T need 'maximum burst window', you need LESS THAN HALF of these abilities to be used to have same effect in 3v3.

[Deleted]

If they have removed the damage reduction buff it is probably because they have seen how much a lot of people are enjoying the current pacing of the game at 90 and are trying to replicate it at 100 whereas with the 25% damage debuff it is very slow paced.

This is WITH 25% reduction, so the damage will actually be higher now. Add a second dps and something dies almost instantly. That being said, most people who enjoy the current "pace" are playing stuff like DK/Retri/Feral and are usually pretty low rated people who finally get to kill something. The current pace especially on 90 would make healers and a lot of tactical stuff unviable.
You'd end up with such moronic teams like TSG with an retri as healer instead of a hpala. The current pace is broken, extremly so in many ways. And it ignores that healing on 100 is a lot lower also.

Seems like wotlk pace to me, which is fine by me to a certain degree. It means more planning ahead and more elaborate strategies which would otherwise be stupid to do in an expansion like MoP.

Not really Wotlk pace, especially since we lack the burst healing to compensate for it. It's insane burst with Cata level healing from dedicated healers. (Hybrid healing is insane for some classes meanwhile). It's the most broken state I've seen PvP in since BC.

In the video the other moonkin focused on the mage. You could say the mage helped the DK win the game by keeping the moonkin away from peeling for the druid. Granted the DK still had his desecrated ground, besides that the druid only had a regrowth hot up and a rejuv. If he had a lifebloom on himself and stood in a mushroom he might not have died. Besides that if he had used barkskin he wouldn't have died at all.

If you look at the chat, that was the second time he bursted apparently with the druids insigna being on CD. His moonkin dropped equally low and quite likely had lifebloom active on him. So otherwise the moonkin might've died instead of the healer who'd been CC'd. And if mage/dk would've bursted on the same target, especially now with 25% more damage, it wouldn't have mattered either way.

Peeling meanwhile isn't possible as it was in the past, because a lot of CC got removed, while melee kept their insane mobility from MoP for the most part.

Quite honestly it'd be the same on MoP. If an rdruid has no hots and doesn't use barkskin/cenarian ward before I stun him, he'd be guaranteed dead.

He had hots, that's the thing. He was missing ONE hot which quite likely was running on the moonkin.

[Prode]

I edited the original video. Maybe it helps figure.

[Deleted]

No doubt next expansion will be a trainwreck in balance, but thats usually the cause no?
MMOs will never have balanced pvp, sometimes your at the top of the rollercoaster, sometimes bottom enjoy the time your OP, maybe do something else or like me, enjoy being the underdog while your UP.

Or you can just be a FOTM dog.

[minteK917]

People were complaining on the beta forums how shitty pvp was at 100 with that bugged resil added. (Holinka tweeted that it was never intended). Balance shouldnt be done for people in quest gear.

[PrairieChicken]

Fanboys never disappoint me. It is broken but it will be fine!

[Deleted]

People were complaining on the beta forums how shitty pvp was at 100 with that bugged resil added. (Holinka tweeted that it was never intended). Balance shouldnt be done for people in quest gear.

That's kinda part of the problem. People with quest gear join battlegrounds, then whine on the forums because they can't solo full geared healers. I vividly remember some green geared DK whining about how he couldn't kill healers with 550 gear or the targets they're healing. Somehow most DPS think they're entitled to kill healers "eventually" (which mostly means as soon as they connect on them) ignoring that that would be devastating for group content where several DPS properly team up.

[minteK917]

That's kinda part of the problem. People with quest gear join battlegrounds, then whine on the forums because they can't solo full geared healers. I vividly remember some green geared DK whining about how he couldn't kill healers with 550 gear or the targets they're healing. Somehow most DPS think they're entitled to kill healers "eventually" (which mostly means as soon as they connect on them) ignoring that that would be devastating for group content where several DPS properly team up.

No........ its the opposite. At 100 with that resilience healers were impossible to take down even for 2 geared dps, you needed perfect cc to kill their partner, while the healer can be a keyboard turning idiot that did not use most of his cooldowns. Blizzard is hell bent on making mana useless for healers, bar holy paladin and MW being trash at 100, no other healers could die or oom. You have idiocy like resto druids that can actually kite the overtuned melees everybody complains about, keep himself up indefinitelly and will never go under 80% mana even if the 3v3 fight could last one hour. Blizzard miss the mark big time when it comes to healing and the 25% resil only made it worse.

Im a ret paladin, rogue and dk. DK self healing is retarded at 100, the resil bug made it even stronger. Dont get me started on when im on ret or other hybrids like balance druid healing. Unless they get their heads out of their ass and simply remove dpser healing and actually make healers have to spend mana to heal something, damage is gona have to be this way, otherwise no class bar ones with massive CC chains can do anything we are just gona go back to this joke that was MoP and all the band aid fix debuff to reduce healing in PVP combat. These band aid fix shit have to stop, removed resil was the first step, they just seems to be too stupid to fucking end it right now when its time to do it and fucking cut self healings and fix defense for self healing class so they can actually be useful without it.

[Deleted]

No........ its the opposite. At 100 with that resilience healers were impossible to take down even for 2 geared dps, you needed perfect cc to kill their partner, while the healer can be a keyboard turning idiot that did not use most of his cooldowns. Blizzard is hell bent on making mana useless for healers, bar holy paladin and MW being trash at 100, no other healers could die or oom. You have idiocy like resto druids that can actually kite the overtuned melees everybody complains about, keep himself up indefinitelly and will never go under 80% mana even if the 3v3 fight could last one hour. Blizzard miss the mark big time when it comes to healing and the 25% resil only made it worse.

Resto Druids are the outlier on Beta. That doesn't mean the other healers do either. Resto shaman for example can have great healing, if he gets to heal, which against a lot of melees he doesn't. Add Hpala and MW currently being trash and we're already down to 2/5 healing classes that are left. What do both of them have? A lot of movement/CC and instants.

Mana just isn't the big "hey a healer is balanced", similar to how I facepalm each time I see the "ermf I'm hitting a healer he should go oom and die" a lot of dps spout in a 1on1 situation. No s/he shouldn't. It's more about being able to keep their teammates alive and support them. The problem with people not dying even during times the healers are CC'd isn't a problem with the healers, it's a problem with DPS HEALING.

DPS healing is causing these problems, some of them can nearly compete with healers. Hell there's been 2on2 arenas where a single frost dk managed to survive against two dps indefinitely because of absurd self heal. This means the dps aren't as reliant on the healer in general and CCing the healer isn't as effective as it used to be, which in turn gets blamed on healers by dps, because none of them are willing to lose their self heals.

Im a ret paladin, rogue and dk. DK self healing is retarded at 100, the resil bug made it even stronger. Dont get me started on when im on ret or other hybrids like balance druid healing. Unless they get their heads out of their ass and simply remove dpser healing and actually make healers have to spend mana to heal something, damage is gona have to be this way, otherwise no class bar ones with massive CC chains can do anything we are just gona go back to this joke that was MoP and all the band aid fix debuff to reduce healing in PVP combat. These band aid fix shit have to stop, removed resil was the first step, they just seems to be too stupid to fucking end it right now when its time to do it and fucking cut self healings and fix defense for self healing class so they can actually be useful without it.

Look, that's the problem. If you CC the healer the healing should sharply drop, it doesn't. Because some classes do almost if not as much healing as an dedicated healer does. Last time we had an situation like this, it gave rise to such insanity as TSG with ret paladin instead of holy. The only factor mitigating this is how utterly ridiculous healing druids are.