Furious Strikes or Sudden Death?

[Argeln]

Re-read what I said as a statement of fact and not a suggestion.

So you know for a fact that it will go RPPM? How?

[Archimtiros]

Learn to take things on faith. Not every question needs an answer.

[Wulfey]

That isn't hand waving at all, he was repeating exactly what I said not an hour prior, and something that I have written mini dissertations on multiple times.

Latency, and to a larger degree, reaction time becomes a factor due to the conflict of globals caused by Headlong Rush. In 5.4, with a 4.5s CD on Bloodthirst and 1.5s GCD on abilities, you can comfortably fit 2 globals in between Bloodthirsts with very little push back.

With Headlong Rush however the cooldown of Bloodthirst is compressed, along with the GCD. Wild Strike further complicates this by halfing its GCD to 0.75s. You would still think this would fit perfectly fine, however the kicker is that Headlong Rush does not reduce the GCD of Wild Strike further. This means as you gain in haste, you are hitting Bloodthirst more often but you are still using Wild Strike at the same rate, which invariably causes push back on BT (undermining the whole point of reduce its cooldown to begin with).

Furious Strikes exacerbates this because it actually reduces the rage cost too much. Because of it, you Wild Strike much more often and have difficulties dropping Rage fast enough. Indeed getting "lucky" with streaks of Bloodsurge procs actually hurts you, as it leaves you without enough globals to properly dump Rage and Raging Blow charges.

Now, the point; the longer you take to use Wild Strike, the more DPS Furious Strikes looses. Since we are not robots and we don't play inside the server rooms, lag and reaction time adds up. Even though it is only measured in tenths of a second, because we Wild Strike so much with Furious Strikes, that time adds up. As for custom lag tolerance, it doesn't work as well as you'd think. Even under the new system WoW has issues dealing with <1s GCDs.

The latest versions of SimCraft accurately model realistic use of Wild Strike (as an elite player with very little latency and a quick reaction time), with the GCD varying between 0.75 and 0.81s, averaging at about 0.78 (prior to which it always used an exact 0.75s which frankly is not realistic.) This causes Furious Strikes to drop under Sudden Death in pure DPS value.

So what is the optimal WS play with Furious Strikes with regards to Headlong Rush and Bloodthirst?

I use the following priority when it comes to clipping Bloodthirst:

(1) Am I enraged? Then throw in an extra WS and clip bloodthirst.
(2) If not enraged, only do 1 WS and wait for bloodthirst.

I am at iLevel 541 so I am not perma enraged. I have come to like FS's consistency and control over damage that the other sub-specs just don't have.

[valenwood]

So what is the optimal WS play with Furious Strikes with regards to Headlong Rush and Bloodthirst?

I use the following priority when it comes to clipping Bloodthirst:

(1) Am I enraged? Then throw in an extra WS and clip bloodthirst.
(2) If not enraged, only do 1 WS and wait for bloodthirst.

I am at iLevel 541 so I am not perma enraged. I have come to like FS's consistency and control over damage that the other sub-specs just don't have.

This is kind of what I was thinking. I was naturally playing such that I was riding engrages out to full(ish) length. I felt that the ADVANTAGE of FS was that i didn't have to hit bloodthirst quite as often, being a very low DPET ability, and furious strikes has the best DPET(w/ 0 haste). This leads me to believe that, even though we won't be getting as many raging blows, we would be using our highest DPET all the time. In the situation of back-to-back-to-back-... bloodsurge procs, we would only use raging blow to re-enrage, spamming ~7-8 wildstrikes each time. I am running sim-c now with a custom APL to see if my hunch plays out at all, not that i don't trust the guys here to have plunged every depth when it comes to APL.

(making a lot of assumptions, looking at the equation asymptotically)

FS: BT-ws-ws-ws-ws-ws-ws-ws-ws-<repeat> = 3000% offhand dmg + 50% MH DMG = 2450% dmg per ~7.5 seconds[pre-enrage dmg, for comparison only] This number wont be affected pretty much at all by haste (don't burn me, but don't offhand attacks do ~20% less dmg?)


Otherwise: BT-Rb-ws-bt-rb-ws-<repeat> = 500% MH and 1150% OH = 1420% dmg per 7.5 seconds [pre-enrage].


SD executes are 320%/320% and with a 10% chance per swing and ~4 attacks in this 7.5 second window = ~35% chance to get a SD proc. with haste lets call it 5 attacks and 41%. to keep the time window the same, and to create an upper (though unrealistic) bound, lets just ADD the SD execute dmg to the window as if it were off the gcd. = 820% mh 1575% oh = 2080% dmg per 7.5 seconds (albeit less, since most odf these abilities are affected by haste).

Now these are not sustainable, and the second oen isn't even possible, but this mean little calculation was just a back of the envelope study in seeing what a "worst case" scenario of too much rage and bloodsurge procs look like compared to a similar window in SD.

I understand that FS becomes next to useless in execute rang,e and that SD maintains a lot of usefulness there. This is not to simulate an entire encounter, but like I said, just to compare a window. Please point out any mis-assumptions and bad calculations (specifically the assumption that OH attacks to 20% of mh ones).


and just one more quick calc: lets pretend you could use WS every single GCD : 400% dps lets pretend you use SD execute every GCD: 384% Wdps [(320 + .8*(320)]/1.5. Haste will affect this number a lot though. Intuitively I just can't see it being a bad thing getting to use WS more and more often. It devalues haste, to be sure, but with such an efficient spender, i feel like we move from the dmg/rage and rage-gen/second model to the dmg/execute time model.


THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO CLAIM ANYTHING, BUT IS JUST SOME QUICK CALCULATIONS FOR THE SAKE OF CURIOSITY. THE MORE EXPERIENCED MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM ARE TO BE TRUSTED AND RESPECTED.


-edit- there must be something i missed: I rand SIMC with the default apl, and im seeing RB=WS=execute/2. i.e. WS and RB had the same DPET and Execute had double the DPET of WS/RB. more digging is required. also execute offhand is hitting for more than WS. Execute offhand should be 320% and WS should be 375%... what am i missing? is this all haste?

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, under more rigorous testing (SIMC) I was unable to find a DPS gain be changing the default APL. What i did is i added a line to use bloodthirst below target of 25% the same as we do, to keep the execute range the same, then i changed the bloodthirst logic to not blood thirst if rage <90, but <26, 51,, 76 and 90(the same). Like so:

actions.single_target=bloodbath
actions.single_target+=/wild_strike,if=rage>110&target.health.pct>20
actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst,if=!talent.unquenchable_thirst.enabled&(buff.enrage.down|rage<90)&target.healt h.pct<25
actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst,if=!talent.unquenchable_thirst.enabled&(buff.enrage.down|rage<76)
actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst,if=talent.unquenchable_thirst.enabled&buff.enrage.down
actions.single_target+=/ravager,if=buff.bloodbath.up|!talent.bloodbath.enabled
actions.single_target+=/execute,if=buff.sudden_death.react
actions.single_target+=/siegebreaker
actions.single_target+=/storm_bolt
actions.single_target+=/wild_strike,if=buff.bloodsurge.up
actions.single_target+=/execute,if=buff.enrage.up|target.time_to_die<12
actions.single_target+=/dragon_roar,if=buff.bloodbath.up|!talent.bloodbath.enabled
actions.single_target+=/raging_blow
actions.single_target+=/wild_strike,if=buff.enrage.up&target.health.pct>20
actions.single_target+=/shockwave,if=!talent.unquenchable_thirst.enabled
actions.single_target+=/impending_victory,if=!talent.unquenchable_thirst.enabled&target.health.pct>20
actions.single_target+=/bloodthirst

Using max iterations to keep the DPS stable between runs,. i DID get a dps gain of ~3 dps (yes, 3) when using the above value of 76 (3 wilds strikes, plus one to make is a <=) . 3 is still probably within error of max iterations. This is kind of confusing me, as i thought for sure i could get more DPS by holding onto enrage, using WS more and BT less. My gear is haste heavy at the moment, and mastery light. I imagine with more mastery and less haste This would pull ahead, but still by a negligible value. I might "reforge" some haste into mastery and see.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay with 11% haste and 50% crit and the rest into mastery, i still saw a DPS loss with lowering the rage at which you should bloodthirst (this is effectively the same as WSing more during an enrage period) But interesting, looking at the statistics, this changes maximum DPS was much higher (i.e. the DPS outside the top end of the 95% confidence interval) but the bell curve fell lower down. *shrug*

on topic, FS consistently produced higher (~200) dps then sd, and this is with the newest build of SimC and i guess using the WS latency mods.

[Saverem]

"do you like apples or bananas?"
- OP

"yes"
- you

Technically, that is also a correct answer. Yes pertains to the fact that he does like apples or oranges.


Right now, with my shitty Grievous geared Warrior, I'm enjoying Unquenchable Thurst. Allows me to keep spamming BT until I get procs or enough rage to use FS. It works awesomely. Guessing this ability loses desirability once you get better gear and more crit, etc?

[Valech]

Technically, that is also a correct answer. Yes pertains to the fact that he does like apples or oranges.

Depends on if the "or" was contravalent or disjunctiv^^

[Zyrhon]

"do you like apples or bananas?"
- OP

"yes"
- you

Was answering @Jarbulldog who wrote "I was thinking that SD will pull ahead at 92 because of improved execute."


Sorry if that was unclear o.O

[Archimtiros]

So what is the optimal WS play with Furious Strikes with regards to Headlong Rush and Bloodthirst?

I use the following priority when it comes to clipping Bloodthirst:

(1) Am I enraged? Then throw in an extra WS and clip bloodthirst.
(2) If not enraged, only do 1 WS and wait for bloodthirst.

I am at iLevel 541 so I am not perma enraged. I have come to like FS's consistency and control over damage that the other sub-specs just don't have.

It's based off your rage levels but the basics are pretty simple

The Rules - in order of priority
WS if rage capped
RB if 2 stacks and Enraged
BT on cooldown
Normal rotation below


Normal Rotation
BT - WS(x2) - RB - BT
BT on cooldown
Between BT use WSx1 or WSx2 (if capping on rage, say >100)
Raging Blow on last GCD before BT.

If you only WS once, you won't push back BT at all, you'll actually have some dead time before BT comes off CD. If you WS twice you'll have just a little bit of pushback, which is fine since it doesn't happen that often.

When Bloodsurge procs
If your rage is high and you have 1 stack of RB; I recommend simply using 3-4 WS to drop rage to manageable levels, then BT again. This will put you at two stacks of RB, but assuming you spent enough Rage, you should be able to double RB and reset your stacks before rage caps again.

If your rage is low, simply WSx2 to get rid of the buff and use RB.

If your rage is high or Bloodsurge procs a second time in a row and you have two stacks of RB, WS 3-4 times to drop Rage and then use RB once. BT will get pushed back a GCD, but it isn't as big a concern as wasting resources.

When using talented attacks (SB, DR)
If rage is low and you can't or don't need to WS, use your talent instead. If you need to drop rage, you can use your talent in place of RB and dump both stacks after the next BT cycle. I recommend Dragon Roar over Storm Bolt just because it requires half as many GCDs.

With Furious Strikes
It is even more complicated because you will pretty much always WSx2, sometimes more. When Bloodsurge procs, or you use Talented attacks, everything just kind of goes to shit and you have to scramble to drop resources. Follow the same rules as above, and just try not to waste resources and not delay BT unless you have to.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind, with lower gear levels, you'll have more free GCDs due to less Raging Blow procs to work into the rotation. At level 100 we will likely favor a UqT rotation to fill GCDs and fish for Enrage until gear comes up.

[Deleted]

I love UQT the most tbh. FS causes major pain my my left arm and SDs proc rate can be so fucking annoying sometimes.

Im not saying I like UQT that much, Its just the most fun one imo.

I like UQT for the healing (glyphed, its 2% max hp every time you hit it, which adds up), & spamming for rage gen/enrage/bloodsurge.

SD & FS are awesome in their own ways, but I go with 'SPAM BT UNTIL MY ARM HURTS!' currently.

[Alphabrain]

I like UQT for the healing (glyphed, its 2% max hp every time you hit it, which adds up), & spamming for rage gen/enrage/bloodsurge.

SD & FS are awesome in their own ways, but I go with 'SPAM BT UNTIL MY ARM HURTS!' currently.

Exactly! lol

I also prefer using Unquenchable Thirst, I tried Sudden Death but for my play style, it wasn't working our for me.

I'm gonna have to try Furious Strikes when servers come back up since I just hit 577. (Started playing early October after a long break)

[Dreknar20]

Is SD still more or less equal with it being changed to 10% now?