Has the Alliance done anything bad in the Lore?

[Tenjen]

the massacre of the POW's when we first came to Pandaria.

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that was onyxia. but the alliance did let it happen. not evil, just stupid.

onyxia pulled the strings here and there, but she depended on the nobility being greedy scum for it to happen

[Littlepwny]

Hell, Kul Tiras wasn't even part of the Alliance of Lordaeron (Which was basically defunct at this point) anymore.

Eh? Kul Tiras never officially withdrew from the Alliance nor is there any information regarding such an event. In the Third War, Kul Tiras was without a doubt a member of the Alliance even though they (and other nations) did not actually appear in the Warcraft campaigns.

Daelin seemed to be extremely close with both Terenas (whom he constantly supported), Varian Wrynn, and Anduin Lothar. Hell, the man was planning to marry his daughter to the leader of the Alliance. Also, although it is considered non-canon, the RPG books also make it clear that Daelin was fighting against the Scourge in the Third War.

"For Sir Lothar!"
"For Lordaeron!"

Are his battle cries in Warcraft 3.



Their status, at this moment, is MIA but they were definitely members of the Alliance until Jaina's betrayal.

[KrazyK923]

My comment was contingent on the opinion that the Alliance of Lordaeron no longer existed following Warcraft 3, which is something neither side will move from (And we still don't have confirmation on whether or not the current Alliance is considered the same Alliance of Lordaeron or a new one inspired by some members of the former--despite multiple attempts to get a confirmation), so I'll just leave it there and not devolve another thread into the topic.

But wanted to give a bit of background as to why I said it the way I did.

[Faroth]

The orc interment camps was pretty bad!

Were they? What would have been the proper response to a legion of genocidal monsters that sought to eradicate two, if not three, races from the planet before their defeat while many were calling for their outright execution?

I mean, really, the internment camps were pretty much a prison sentence. They weren't even labor camps, but more just held and somewhat studied during their lethargy.


As for the OP question, nothing I would name off as wholly bad with no justification to be argued. The Alliance is fairly clean in that regard.

Getting more specific to individuals;

Culling of Stratholme is a morally gray argument.
The Highborne summoning the Burning Legion and Azshara's general craziness.

[KrazyK923]

Culling of Stratholme is a morally gray argument.
The Highborne summoning the Burning Legion and Azshara's general craziness.

Yeah but even with your caveat with specific individuals, was Arthas really acting with the support of the Alliance (Or even Lordaeron) in that event? Uther and Jaina refusing to participate seems to indicate otherwise. And then the Shen'dralar, the only faction of Highborne who actually rejoin the Night Elves, weren't even sided with Azshara. They mostly chilled in Dire Maul and even fought against the Legion when they got there, aided by Goldrinn. Even though the Shen'dralar were Azshara's best arcanists, I can't recall a time it was stated they joined her in summoning the Legion or even being sympathetic to her doing so.

[darkwarrior42]

Not sure if this is bad, but condemning the forsaken while accepting death knights shows their hypocrisy pretty nicely.

[NuLogic]

Camp taurajo! Dem alliance are teh worst. Alliance rarely do anything at this point other than look pretty. It's sickening, alliance needs to go on an orc and troll genocide crusade so we can have some different lore for once.

[MechaMoose]

Not sure if this is bad, but condemning the forsaken while accepting death knights shows their hypocrisy pretty nicely.

not really the same thing.

Garithos =/= the Alliance same way Garrosh =/= the Horde

also the Forsaken have since openly attacked, tortured, experimented on, and otherwise gleefully murder any alliance they find.

the Knights of the ebon blade sent a representative to SW with the Argent Crusade backing them up.

the knights have also since ceased any and all operations and have mostly dissolved into their former factions

the knights used diplomacy and got in the forsaken have been entirely hostile even to nations and people and races the horde isn't at war with.

[Deleted]

Of course they have. During the WC3 era humans were often portrayed more negatively than orcs, they had plenty of villain characters to go around back then.

Sadly that has been largely removed from the faction during WoW, and losing that edge is why I don't particularly care for the alliance in the game. Who knows, maybe they'll get their balls back when WC4 finally comes around.

[Deathgoose]

Hmm what made them bloodthirsty? Oh that's right it was one of the Alliance races doing what it did best, running from the problems it created.

You must really hate the expansion, since the Iron Horde can't play the victim card and blame their blood thirst on the draenei and demon blood, instead showing it to be their true nature.

[Aucald]

some of these points like Garithos, interment camps etc. I never took thoes up, because, at least in my eyes the Alliance of Lorderan is a diffrent 'Alliance' from the Current Grand Alliance. yes the original races are still in it (Dwarves, humans, high elves +/- gnomes), since the kingdoms splitered aftewards (gilneas refusing to pay for the interment camps etc) leaving in essence only Lorderan to maintain the interment camps.

Not a distinction I make, really. Mind you I play Horde primarily and my experiences are filtered through that lens, but in my view the Alliance that once contained Lordaeron proper is the same as the Alliance that now contains the kingdom of Stormwind. The various nation-states within the Alliance are mostly the same, only the mantle of leadership has changed over time (Lordaeron to Stormwind, specifically).

Meanwhile on the Horde side, Doomhammer, GAVE THRALL the Title Warchief. it's the same horde but with a new warchief. yes..thrall had some delusional ideas about what the "horde" was.

This is kind of difficult to reconcile with your different treatment of the Alliance above. A new Warchief in a new land with a new philosophy would, in my eyes, bespeak of a new Horde deserving at least a fresh judgment. Daelin Proudmoore was incapable of that whereas his daughter was, and history happened as it did.

[Lady Dragonheart]

In reality, the Alliance has done little "bad" as a faction itself. Almost every incident can be point at a single specific person's misstep. Even then in most cases, like Jaina, Arthas, and necessity of the post-war camps, their actions are still justifiable and wouldn't be considered bad by most.

Overall, the Alliance is pretty clean in terms of morale.

[MechaMoose]

Not a distinction I make, really. Mind you I play Horde primarily and my experiences are filtered through that lens, but in my view the Alliance that once contained Lordaeron proper is the same as the Alliance that now contains the kingdom of Stormwind. The various nation-states within the Alliance are mostly the same, only the mantle of leadership has changed over time (Lordaeron to Stormwind, specifically).


This is kind of difficult to reconcile with your different treatment of the Alliance above. A new Warchief in a new land with a new philosophy would, in my eyes, bespeak of a new Horde deserving at least a fresh judgment. Daelin Proudmoore was incapable of that whereas his daughter was, and history happened as it did.

look they're either both the same or both new beginnings otherwise it's just a double standard

[Jaspias]

In reality, the Alliance has done little "bad" as a faction itself. Almost every incident can be point at a single specific person's misstep. Even then in most cases, like Jaina, Arthas, and necessity of the post-war camps, their actions are still justifiable and wouldn't be considered bad by most.

Overall, the Alliance is pretty clean in terms of morale.

oh damn i forgot arthas...there is some evil for ya

[Lady Dragonheart]

You must really hate the expansion, since the Iron Horde can't play the victim card and blame their blood thirst on the draenei and demon blood, instead showing it to be their true nature.

Even the Devs constantly called them savages even BEFORE WoD was even thought of... they were brutal, merciless, hardcore tyrants and were good at what they did in WC and WC2... over all these years, I've never understood why people think that they are innately peaceful...

[nonameelf]

You must really hate the expansion, since the Iron Horde can't play the victim card and blame their blood thirst on the draenei and demon blood, instead showing it to be their true nature.

It's going to be rough for orc fans since they can no longer victim blame the draenei for the choices the orcs made.

[KrazyK923]

oh damn i forgot arthas...there is some evil for ya

Pretty sure Arthas stopped being Alliance when he destroyed his homeland.

[Aucald]

Except for Taurajo and Dalaran, which are far more nuanced than you're indicating here, I agree. Then again, Admiral Proudmoore wasn't acting as an Alliance member at that point. Hell, Kul Tiras wasn't even part of the Alliance of Lordaeron (Which was basically defunct at this point) anymore.

I was using broad strokes, yes - and detailing Alliance atrocities from a Horde perspective. Nuance is available everywhere regardless of one's agenda, and I would never say the Horde's gloves are clear of guilt (or blood) for their part.

[Kharli]

My comment was contingent on the opinion that the Alliance of Lordaeron no longer existed following Warcraft 3, which is something neither side will move from (And we still don't have confirmation on whether or not the current Alliance is considered the same Alliance of Lordaeron or a new one inspired by some members of the former--despite multiple attempts to get a confirmation), so I'll just leave it there and not devolve another thread into the topic.

But wanted to give a bit of background as to why I said it the way I did.

Well, I sent a tweet to Loreogry, just waiting on a response on that very question.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It's going to be rough for orc fans since they can no longer victim blame the draenei for the choices the orcs made.

As a big Orc fan I just dislike the retcons under the excuse of a alternate timeline. I'm fine that the Orcs aren't like the humans because frankly the humans are just so boring and its leaking into other Alliance races as well.