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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Hmm what made them bloodthirsty? Oh that's right it was one of the Alliance races doing what it did best, running from the problems it created.
    what? clearly you dont know the lore lol.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Hmm what made them bloodthirsty? Oh that's right it was one of the Alliance races doing what it did best, running from the problems it created.
    Oh I see, the "Orcs problems are all the Draenei's fault" line of logic.

    Can't wait to see where this goes.

  3. #83
    The Lightbringer Jademist's Avatar
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    Well, we have Garithos...and Arthas?

  4. #84
    so much talk about Garithos, im gonna reinstall wc3 now lol

  5. #85
    Bad actions even if justified are still bad actions. I wish some alliance fans would realize this
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  6. #86
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I think, ultimately, you're not going to get a purely objective listing from anyone here. We're all partisans in our own ways, seeing the Alliance/Horde conflict through a biased viewpoint based on which faction we cleave to. Horde partisans are going to whitewash Horde atrocities by putting them into a gray area and the Alliance partisans will do the same by redefining context in exactly the same way. The only fair metric to judge is to look at it from a partisan viewpoint for both factions - Alliance atrocities from the Horde perspective and Horde atrocities from the Alliance perspective.

    Any list is apt to be lopsided depending on where you start your judgment, because for the first two installments of Warcraft the Horde were purely villainous and driven by demonic bloodlust. The Alliance, in turn, were cast as good and decent; defending their home-world from an encroaching evil. It's only from Warcraft III and on into WoW that things get a bit murky as the story became a bit more three-dimensional and less monochromatic in terms as to who the villains were (excepting, of course, the Burning Legion and Scourge).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel of Justice View Post
    People saying "internment camps/enslaving orcs" wat? They were POW's from the 2nd war,if it was up to Trollbane and Gen Greymane they would've been killed instead. This way it made Gilneas quit the alliance as they didn't want to pay taxes for the camps. There weren't really enslaved,except maybe in Durnholde Keep where Blackmoore was the warden,and he was a drunk idiot.
    OT - I don't really think theres much Alliance has done "bad" or purely evil,it all depends on the point of view tbh. Like Daelin proudmoore,hero to some,evil bastard to some, Purge of Dalaran, justified punishment for grand treason or terrible genocide by an evil witch etc.

    Also people defending Garithos,jeez. He declared himself Marshal after Lorderon collapsed (Would probably be in prison/executed for treason if Lordaeron still existed) and continued being a prick to any non-human (probably humans too) he was written this way so they could split off Blood Elves from the alliance.
    Also wasn't Camp Taurajo evacuated and only had soldiers/guards in there? Alliance lost the dwarven dig in barrens,lost Theramore and lost Northwatch hold. Taurajo was just payback (everyone was slaughtered in Theramore/Northwatch including the non-combatants).
    Preemptive payback? Theramore attacked Taurajo because they had mistaken intelligence that the Horde was going to attack Theramore from there. The commander left a path open for civilians to evacuate, but no warning and civilians died. Theramore attacked the Horde first in the Horde/Theramore conflict in Cataclysm. They invaded Durotar with plans to attack Sen'Jin Village, The Valley of Trials, and Razor Hill. Aside from that, they moved into Tiragarde Keep after the Kul Tirans were killed by a tsunami caused by the cataclysm. They had a blockade around Ratchet, a neutral goblin town, preventing any ship entering or leaving without their permission, and they fired upon a High Elf's ships.

    Taurajo wasn't payback for anything, it was a botched attack carried out with faulty intelligence.

    Taurajo along with those in Durotar were the first strike in the Theramore/Horde conflict, started by Theramore. The Horde was parked near Theramore for a few days (or was it weeks?) allowing the Alliance to move their best troops and commanders there. Any civilians who stayed became militia, meaning they were no longer non-combatants.
    Last edited by Koryn123; 2014-10-29 at 04:40 PM.

  8. #88
    Mediv opening the dark portal to let the horde through.

    Benedict creating Chromatus, leader of the twilight cult, enslaving child of malagos and forcing her to breed almost causes the hour of twilight.

    Kelthuzad creating the Cult of the damned and spreading the plague, summoning the burning legion.

    Arthas wiping out all of lorderon, becoming the LK and killing thousands more.

    Garithos attempting genocide on the blood elves because he didn't like them.

    Right blackmore as well

    Jiana letting the purge of dal happen as well as joining in, imprisoning all the innocent blood elves that had nothing to do with the portals into darnassas since it was just one person.

    Most people will argue that all those people are not part of the current alliance besides Jiana. If we were going with current factions would just be ben and jiana. Horde would be Garrosh and Apocrathary dude at wrathgate(name escapes me.)

  9. #89
    I would say Night elves in WC3 for attacking the orcs for "chopping trees".

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    I would say Night elves in WC3 for attacking the orcs for "chopping trees".
    And if Orcs are bad for chopping down trees when they had no idea anyone lived there, Theramore is bad for chopping trees when they knew people lived there (during the Night Elf campaign, they're chopping down trees too with the Horde, and Night Elves jump the gun and attack them again).

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Hmm what made them bloodthirsty? Oh that's right it was one of the Alliance races doing what it did best, running from the problems it created.
    Wat? The Orcs were violent, albeit not mindless, before they drank Mannoroth's blood. Hell, the entire backstory for Warlords of Draenor is that Garrosh took advantage of the Orc's inherent aggressive nature to turn them into a new Horde. He sells the idea of a Horde to Grommash by luring him with the idea of conquering powerful races and civilisations (Specifically mentioning Stormwind and Ironforge, no doubt in an extended story he'd detail the values of all the major locations). You could say the same that the Frostwolf should've ended the problem as well then, Durotan could've ended the Horde in hindsight by challenging and defeating him in Mak'gora. If he considered the risks too great, he's and the Frostwolf no less to blame than Velen and the Draenei for fleeing Argus.

    You also have to consider the events and how they were shown. The first time the Humans see the Orcs, they come through a portal and raze villages and towns and ultimately Azeroth (Old Stormwind). They end up being defeated and instead of outright killing them, which was a justified line of thought, they are put into camps to see if the bloodlust could be removed. If you remember, Terenas thought the Orcs could be reasoned with if given the time for them to see reason and act rationally. Some abused the situation, like Blackmoore, but that's expected. Not justified, but expected simply because that's human nature; If it can be exploited someone will exploit it.

    Sure later revelations would reveal that the Orcs were lead by a darker force but it still doesn't change the fact that the Orcs who came through the portal were nothing more than bloodthirsty savages hellbent on destroying their enemies and conquering lands.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2014-10-30 at 02:25 AM.

  12. #92
    Garathos was quite a dick to blood elves if that counts. Other than that the internment camps after the 2nd (i think) war were pretty rough.

    Also i didn't even really think about it until reading the comments above, but seriously, the night elves attacked orcs in warcraft 3 for sitting on the edge of ashenvale chopping trees down, got their asses kicked then called a demi god to help them and forced grom down his blood drinking path. Not saying that talking to grom would of gone a whole lot better, but even a "stop chopping my trees before i tell cenarius on you" would of been better then just attacking them out of the blue.
    Last edited by bmjclark; 2014-10-30 at 12:44 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart Maiden View Post
    E
    There wasn't a betrayal, Silvermoon was sacked because no messenger was sent (a WC3 mission is centered around killing all their messengers so no one could help Silvermoon). Then later, after the sacking of Silvermoon, they turned to demons and fel-magic (the same influence that was responsible for the horde invasion the generation prior) and then they were wondering why they were discriminated against? Seriously? "Hey buddy, I know you couldn't save my city because we never got the call out, but we're in bed with the demons that were responsible for killing your parents, can we be friends?" /sarcasm
    Silvermoon did not send messengers to the Alliance, the betrayal that is referenced here is Garithos and the inaction of the Kirin tor, while they were slated for execution in their very city, only after these events did the elves start to drain arcane energy and only very few of them actually used fel magic.


    It was proven that the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor. While Jaina's measures were extreme, they were justified in the end. Also, the Sun Reavers were already Horde sympathizers and they kind of bombed Theramore... Seriously, the two of the three important people in Dalaran experienced MAJOR losses from the slaughter at Theramore, and the Sun Reavers are side against them anyway AND still do things behind their back anyway!
    It was proven that at most a handful of Sunreavers were involved, the vast majority was innocent, which makes the purge a grey area.



    As if the Horde has never done the same... smashing human seedlings and such among many other xenophobic quests. Regardless, it was surprise attack in retaliation for the stealing of the Bell, that is the nature of a surprise attack. This was a war after all, the fact that they even decided to take prisoners was merciful (and surprising considering everything that happened) after everything was found out and the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor.
    The difference here is that the sunreavers were not a different entity, they were full fledged citizens of dalaran and part of the Kirin Tor, they had double pass so to speak and as such were not at war with anyone.


    That was legit, even with Mal'ganis's meddling. Arthas was freeing his infected people from servitude to the Lich King and Mal'ganis. It was necessary, if unfortunate.
    Of course it was justified but evil nonetheless. Doing the right thing does not mean you are morally correct, which determines good and evil.

    What? And why not? Specification required, I think. Also, war. Spies are commonplace in war, especially when they are your enemy and are influenced by demons.
    Quel'thalas was not in the horde at the time, they were a neutral nation, which was negotiating with both sides, but the Alliance it with their spies.


    After Onyxia was gone, the Cataclysm happened and that took attention and resources, obviously. Also, the people of Westfall didn't need protection, they needed a stable economy and homes to be built after the Cataclysm. Which is why Sentinel Hill was being fortified and expanded to accommodate them, only Vanessa turned the people against the guard instead by corrupting the people to rebel.
    The entire situation in Westfall was a consequence of Varians weakness, during his early reign unwilling to pay the stonemasons, the war costed a fortune and drove many people into poverty.

  14. #94
    Enslavement/imprisonment of the Orcs after the Second War. Although some could argue that was justified, seeing as how the Orcs kind of tried to invade Azeroth before that. A lot of Human leaders wanted to simply round up all the surviving Orcs and straight-up execute them, but Terenas wouldn't allow that. Now that I think about it....if the Orcs had won the Second War, what would they have done to any Human survivors? I have a feeling they wouldn't have bothered with internment camps. The Orcs really got off easy in that situation, thanks to Terenas.

    When Sky Admiral Rogers orders her men to execute the Horde survivors who are trying to swim away after a bombing, that could probably count. Her logic that the Horde would've done the same is understandable, but I think her hate for the Horde probably had more to do with that decision than logic. Varian himself probably wouldn't have done that, for example.

    Garithos was a dick for sure, but I don't count him as Alliance. He was more like a renegade Warlord than an actual leader of the Alliance. He just happened to be the highest-ranked surviving member of Lordaeron's military after the Scourge invasion (which wasn't saying much because Lordaeron's military barely existed by then), and his forces were all volunteers he managed to scrape together. I don't think the Alliance as a whole (or Terenas, for that matter) would've condoned his actions. In fact, if I remember correctly, his plan (before Sylvanas put a stop to him) was to take advantage of the situation and rule Lordaeron.

    Same with Arthas. By the time he went off the deep end and became a Death Knight, he was no longer part of the Alliance. When he was still acting for the Alliance side (before the Scourge invasion/plague pushed him off the deep end), he was a really cool guy who cared deeply for his people and even went out of his way to help peasants, be nice to guards, etc. The only "bad" thing he did as an official Alliance action was the purging of Stratholme, and he could make a pretty strong argument that it had to be done. Nothing he did after becoming a Death Knight can be blamed on the Alliance.
    Last edited by Ciddy; 2014-10-30 at 02:59 PM.

  15. #95
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentanius View Post
    Greetings my beautiful people from Azeroth!
    So! I'm willing to make some videos about the horde and the Alliance, about their lore and things like that, and I'm willing to know the answers from the following questions:

    Has the alliance done something bad for the Horde without "good reasons"?
    Besides Daelin Proudmoore, the Alliance has or had some other "scumbag"?

    It's easy to see the bad things about the Horde (Orcs and Undeads are full of negative things in their lores ) but doing the same with the Alliance is kinda hard.

    I'm counting on you people!
    Thanks!
    Daelin isn't actually a "scumbag".

    He attacked the Orcs for good reasons...they attacked the Alliance first. Even Thrall made the threat "Give us land or we'll give you war", before he attacked several; Lordaeran settlements and stole several ships.

    Thrall and the Orcs in Durotar give him exactly zero reason to believe they'd changed.

    As for the rest...the Alliance has done some questionable activities.

    Camp Taurajo was destroyed...but that was an act of military necessity
    They attacked the Goblins...but given the timing, that was likely a mission initiated by the Twilights.
    There were some prisoners mistreated in the Barrens

    The biggest crime that could be laid at the Alliance was probably Garithos...but even then, the only reason he got away with his actions was because noone was around to stop him. Even Kael'thas did nothing.

    EJL

  16. #96
    The entire situation in Westfall was a consequence of Varians weakness, during his early reign unwilling to pay the stonemasons, the war costed a fortune and drove many people into poverty.


    This just isn't true. You're ignoring everything the House of Nobles (Because of Onyxia) was doing.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2014-10-30 at 02:59 PM.

  17. #97
    Dreadlord Jaspias's Avatar
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    a couple things i would like to point out to those defending the alliance here:
    1. Camp Taurajo may have been a legit military target, but it was still attacked without provocation.
    2. Aethas and Jaina were of equal rank in the Kirin Tor, and when she decided to purge to Sunreavers from Dalaran after their attack on Darnassus, she betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran by defending here own faction against the actions of the other.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaspias View Post
    2. Aethas and Jaina were of equal rank in the Kirin Tor, and when she decided to purge to Sunreavers from Dalaran after their attack on Darnassus, she betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran by defending here own faction against the actions of the other.
    Wrong!

    Out of the six of the Kirin Tor, one of them is elected as their main leader. I will admit, however, that we do not exactly know the actual power of their leader. The Purge of Dalaran was either performed with the assistance of the majority of the council (though Khadgar obviously was against it) or Jaina's power is absolute over the rest of the Council which seems to be unsupported by the Lore.

    Also, the Sunreavers attacked Darnassus and therefore ignored the edicts on neutrality from their patron.

  19. #99
    I consider the Alliance of Lorderaen and the current Alliance as two different entities with similar names. So for me it would be:

    1. Spying on the Blood Elves and putting many Night Elfs in their turf (TBC)
    2. Attacking the ship that carried Thrall and later the Goblin ship because they didn't want any witnesses. (CATA)
    3. Camp Taurajo (CATA)
    4. Sky Admiral Rogers ordering to shoot the defenceless orcs who were swimming to safety (Alliance starting experience MoP)

    I would have counted Jade Forest with the Panda chilldren enslavement, but I think that was mainly Blizzard being lazy and thus copy+pasting the quests for both sides. The horde Warlocks during the Alliance q-chain makes more sense imo.
    Dalaran depends if you think Jaina did or did not react as she would have, seeing how TWICE the sunreavers betrayed her.

  20. #100
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Beside being alliance ? Hmm where to start
    Will count in general what is wrong, regardless who it harmed, be it alliance or horde or neither factions
    The sundering 10000 years ago, split land in half and almost destroy all Azeroth by wow's micheal bay whose favorite character of Metzen too: Malfurion
    Fandral smashing the scepter, effectively helping the forces of Qiraji rebuild themselves
    Practice reckless of arcane magic attracting rogue demons and burning legion, reason why council of Tirisfal was formed in first place
    Aegwynn arrogance gave a host for Sargeras to come again to Azeroth
    My favorite one: Draenei come hide in Draenor 'forgot' to tell the original inhabitants (who are not only orcs) that an army of infinity of demons destroyed every single planet they lived upon and hunting them down, army whose goal is to undo titans creation so they won't come Dreanor since titans didn't come there, except KJ swore to hunt them, so if - and it was their rights - the inhabitants of Draenor kicked Draenei out they would lived peacefully, or at least just be ready for impeding doom
    Can't count Medivh when he was host of Sargeras
    War of 3 hammers, that ended with summon of Ragnaros and destroy the beautiful lands forever
    A genocide against Trolls for just being trolls, mass kill them everywhere taking their lands (back then elves were still part of alliance, and humans were more determined in killing trolls for just being trolls as shown by Trollbane and Stormgarde nation)
    that's enough for now i'm bored, may continue it later, hope that is 'enough' to show how alliance are as evil if not more (u can even consider them root of all evil because everything horde did wrong was due to 2 actions, 1 the sundering and 2 the coming of Draenei to draenor without warning of the biggest threat in universe the burning legion)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dirk123 View Post
    I consider the Alliance of Lorderaen and the current Alliance as two different entities with similar names. So for me it would be:
    He was asking about alliance races, not alliance faction
    So basically you can count anything happened including the Thundering 10000 year ago at hands of night elves
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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