Do you define yourself as a nationalist?

[Lothaeryn]

Nah, the Ottomans were rubbish. The only thing they did that was more successful than any other nation was slavery, they excelled in that.

And I assume you have verifiable evidence to back this claim?

[Mayhem]

the last time we started this nationalism thing was pretty bad, so nope, no nah, nuhu, nein

[Deleted]

To some extend, yeah. I grew up in this country and I like my culture and it definitely have been part of defining who I am, and I strive to keep some of that culture alive and remember how my country was created. I strive away from the idea of nationalism where foreign influence and cultures aren't welcome and that my nation is superior to other nations, always nice to get some influence from other cultures to broaden one's mind and ideas stemming from it

Also, what happens when you live in a country without lobbyist? Is there no control of the government then?

[TheGravemind]

And I assume you have verifiable evidence to back this claim?

He does not. Ignore trolls.

Infracted

[Lothaeryn]

He does not. Ignore trolls.

I know he does not, its a warning to others who might be tricked by bullshit arguments like his.

[Kalis]

Read the forum rules outlined on the sticky on the first thread on this board and do not derail threads. ty

How am I derailing? You said the Ottomans would have advanced post-nationalism, and I pointed out that they didn't advance in anything other than slavery, so therefore insinuating that they wouldn't have done so.

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And I assume you have verifiable evidence to back this claim?

They enslaved the entire Greek peninsular.

[Lothaeryn]

How am I derailing? You said the Ottomans would have advanced post-nationalism, and I pointed out that they didn't advance in anything other than slavery, so therefore insinuating that they wouldn't have done so.

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They enslaved the entire Greek peninsular.

They conquered it, right of conquest is not slavery until the peoples there are literally classified as subhuman and treated as such(as in, no right to own homes, forced labor without compensation, freely killed like cattle, etc.).

Last time I checked the Greeks were still treated like people, albeit second class citizens during the empire era.

Your personal opinion on the matter makes no difference on what happened in actual history, Greeks were never slaves to the Ottomans, only subjugated to their rule.

[Deleted]

Your personal opinion on the matter makes no different on what happened in actual history, Greeks were never slaves to the Ottomans, only subjugated to their rule.

Rofl, okay then. I guess just about every slave owner have thought like that.

[Lothaeryn]

Rofl, okay then. I guess just about every slave owner have thought like that.

And I ask again, where is your evidence on the matter? The proof of burden is on YOU to back up the claim, not me.

[Deleted]

And I ask again, where is your evidence on the matter? The proof of burden is on YOU to back up the claim, not me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery...Ottoman_Empire

Slavery in the Ottoman Empire was a legal and important part of the Ottoman Empire's economy and society

about a fifth of the population consisted of slaves in 1609

Sexual slavery was a central part of the Ottoman slave system throughout the history of the institution.

So, yeah. They surely didn't engage in enslaving people.

[TheGravemind]

The word "slave" is a loaded term because it has meant different things to different people at different times. The Egyptian Mamluk state was governed completely by slaves, defended by an elite slave army, and had an elite class that regularly tried to sell itself into slavery due to the benefits of being a "slave" in Mamluk society.

So, whenever someone uses that term without qualifying it, you can rest assured that that person is definitely not versed in history beyond its superficial concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk

[Kalis]

They conquered it, right of conquest is not slavery until the peoples there are literally classified as subhuman and treated as such(as in, no right to own homes, forced labor without compensation, freely killed like cattle, etc.).

Last time I checked the Greeks were still treated like people, albeit second class citizens during the empire era.

Your personal opinion on the matter makes no different on what happened in actual history, Greeks were never slaves to the Ottomans, only subjugated to their rule.

The system of παιδομάζωμα was slavery. You can try and claim that forcing people to hand over their children wasn't, but it was.

[TheGravemind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery...Ottoman_Empire




So, yeah. They surely didn't engage in enslaving people.

To be a "slave" in Ottoman society means to be a vassal of the state, which is why most of the Ottoman government and elite military regiments (Janissary corps) were "slaves," just like the Mamluks.

The Ottomans themselves were founded by a group of Seljuk slaves that broke away from the Abbassid empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuq_dynasty

[Revi]

The word "slave" is a loaded term because it has meant different things to different people at different times. The Egyptian Mamluk state was governed completely by slaves, defended by an elite slave army, and had an elite class that regularly tried to sell itself into slavery due to the benefits of being a "slave" in Mamluk society.

So, whenever someone uses that term without qualifying it, you can rest assured that that person is definitely not versed in history beyond its superficial concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk

And yet this does nothing to change the history of the Ottoman Empire. Saying the person your discussing with is not versed in the subject means absolutely nothing.

[madmanx]

Islamists blowing them selves up. Europeans voting for populist right-wing anti immigration idiots. Americans waving American flags at the creationist museum....and don't even get me started with Israel/Palestine.

All different sides of the same coin so ...no, nationalism isn't a good thing.

The way I see it it is scared people that are refusing to realize that the world as we know it is coming to an end. On good and/or bad, in a hundred years or so we will all look, sound and behave very similarly. You can blow up what you want and vote as right wing as you please but it is still going to happen.

[TheGravemind]

I am not sure you can ever make a case of "slavery" is good. But this is an interesting attempt.

"Slavery" means nothing. Qualify the word with chronological and historical context if you want it to mean anything. What you just said relayed no data.

[Dezerte]

Gravemind-natioanlist, no. Nationalist as per definition? A bit perhaps, not much.

[Lothaeryn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery...Ottoman_Empire



So, yeah.

Link to an article detailing how slavery was used in the Empire, I see no section regarding how GREEKS were treated via Slavery, The blood tax always existed to non-muslims, this is widely known already.

If you are talking about the revolt in 1821, the rebels were caught and forced into slavery, which was not an uncommon practice by any means, even in the early 19th century.

[TheGravemind]

And yet this does nothing to change the history of the Ottoman Empire. Saying the person your discussing with is not versed in the subject means absolutely nothing.

It means quite a bit, actually, as it allows you to view that particular person's posts through the filter of my criticisms, which clarifies the discourse considerably.

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When I say slave I mean:
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Then there were no slaves in Ottoman society since that does not define the subset of people in Ottoman society who fall under the stratification class of being a "slave."

[Deleted]

Link to an article detailing how slavery was used in the Empire, I see no section regarding how GREEKS were treated via Slavery, The blood tax always existed to non-muslims, this is widely known already.

If you are talking about the revolt in 1821, the rebels were caught and forced into slavery, which was not an uncommon practice by any means, even in the early 19th century.

Pretty sure it started like this and wasn't specific to the greeks:

Nah, the Ottomans were rubbish. The only thing they did that was more successful than any other nation was slavery, they excelled in that.

And I assume you have verifiable evidence to back this claim?