I despise sniper training.

[Fascinate]

I never liked this talent back in the day, and its still terrible!

It promotes bad gameplay and roots you in pvp (constantly looking for times to stand still). The worst part about this is MM is the best spec, by a lot! I cant play another spec because im in a fairly high ranked progression guild.

I really have no suggestions about how to fix this either, i cant come up with a glyph that removes the stand still part of sniper training and introduces some kind of negative aspect (like all glyphs seem to do). Its not as big of a deal in pve as pvp but i do both at a high level i just cannot believe blizzard thought it was a good idea to bring this talent back (sv hunters had this a couple xpacs ago, at least i think it was sv lol).

[Huggykaze]

I never liked this talent back in the day, and its still terrible!

It promotes bad gameplay and roots you in pvp (constantly looking for times to stand still). The worst part about this is MM is the best spec, by a lot! I cant play another spec because im in a fairly high ranked progression guild.

I really have no suggestions about how to fix this either, i cant come up with a glyph that removes the stand still part of sniper training and introduces some kind of negative aspect (like all glyphs seem to do). Its not as big of a deal in pve as pvp but i do both at a high level i just cannot believe blizzard thought it was a good idea to bring this talent back (sv hunters had this a couple xpacs ago, at least i think it was sv lol).

If you are in 'a fairly high ranked progression guild' you are already done with SoO Mythic so play whatever you feel like, it won't matter. @100 BM actually overtakes MM, but being in such a guild you should know your class and what comes in near future, so I don't see the point of this post. Not to mention it was discussed several times.

[Fascinate]

Eh from what i have been hearing (i dont have beta sadly) MM is far and away the top single target dps spec for us, feel free to show me proof otherwise (no sims please, parses). Of course i dont care about lvl 90, not sure why you assumed that is what i was talking about.

[G3 Ghost]

I've heard pretty much the same thing, Fascinate, but at the same time, I have a hard time believing that with the new mechanics (many requiring movement based gameplay), that MM will stay on top.

I haven't, however, seen any of the perks that hunters will get when it comes to leveling in WoD. Not to mention the level 100 talent "Lone Wolf" will do a lot of good in regards of reduced damage MM suffers while moving.

I wouldn't say they need to remove Sniper Training, just change the "buff" recently moved to do half of what Sniper Training does. They can't let us just move whenever we want though, we'd destroy meters. That's the trade-off with SV. I'm not entirely sure what the trade-off is with BM as I've never spec'd in to it.

[Herecius]

I find this thread fascinating because I absolutely love sniper training.

Though I get the sentiment over PvP. What about this: a glyphed sniper training to maybe provide a reduced power bonus (half power perhaps, or remove bonus damage component or some such), but allow for it to be activated far easier. Say, halve the activation time and double (or triple) the amount of time you can move with it.

But for PvE, I love sniper training. Finding perfect positioning in an encounter is half the fun for me. I managed to do Dark Shamans on Mythic earlier with 100% sniper training uptime. That's tanking the bosses together, mind you. I know the fight lasts half the time it did before, but still! It was a lot of fun keeping it up on a hectic fight.

[theossy]

I don't know why anybody hasn't mentioned this. OP is stating: It promotes bad gameplay, and leaves at that. THAT is the premise for this thread. What the ...? I'm not saying you haven't thought this through, but when you do a post like this, PLEASE, take the time to actually elaborate on what you mean by "bad gameplay". If it's just the "standing still and not flying around part" then that's YOUR personal opinion and should be stated as such. Just me 2 cents.

[Fascinate]

Honestly anything to remove the stand still aspect of it i would be ok with. I cannot fathom how anyone can say they love this talent, even in pve it promotes BAD GAMEPLAY. THis mean you will stand in stuff that is healable (you are a mana sponge) where otherwise you would move out of it. This was the problem with the original incantation of sniper training when blizz decided to remove it, it honestly blows my mind they brought it back.

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I don't know why anybody hasn't mentioned this. OP is stating: It promotes bad gameplay, and leaves at that. THAT is the premise for this thread. What the ...? I'm not saying you haven't thought this through, but when you do a post like this, PLEASE, take the time to actually elaborate on what you mean by "bad gameplay". If it's just the "standing still and not flying around part" then that's YOUR personal opinion and should be stated as such. Just me 2 cents.

If you dont understand what i mean by bad gameplay you shouldnt even post in this thread, common sense isnt so common anymore it seems.

[Arcanimus]

Honestly anything to remove the stand still aspect of it i would be ok with. I cannot fathom how anyone can say they love this talent, even in pve it promotes BAD GAMEPLAY. THis mean you will stand in stuff that is healable (you are a mana sponge) where otherwise you would move out of it. This was the problem with the original incantation of sniper training when blizz decided to remove it, it honestly blows my mind they brought it back.

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If you dont understand what i mean by bad gameplay you shouldnt even post in this thread, common sense isnt so common anymore it seems.

It doesn't promote bad gameplay. It promotes PLANNING. Plan your movements accordingly, and you won't have a problem with it. All that this means is that you'll do less damage during early progression attempts because you're still learning timing.

Basically, its a fine dance. You can't step in with the masters until you've nailed the basics.

(Not saying I like Sniper Training, or that it's good design, just that your argument is flawed)

[Deleted]

Honestly anything to remove the stand still aspect of it i would be ok with. I cannot fathom how anyone can say they love this talent, even in pve it promotes BAD GAMEPLAY. THis mean you will stand in stuff that is healable (you are a mana sponge) where otherwise you would move out of it. This was the problem with the original incantation of sniper training when blizz decided to remove it, it honestly blows my mind they brought it back.

if it's healable, and your healers are ok with it, it is not bad gameplay, is just gameplay. The same way there is a ton of fights where mechanics are ignored or cheesed if it benefits the ultimate goal, which is killing the boss.

if you stand on shit that will kill you or disctract your healers from their primary duties, then it is not a gameplay problem, is a player problem.

BTW the exact same thing applies to every caster class, because if they move, they lose damage. And noone ever said that having to stand still to cast and maximize dps was bad gameplay for the rest of ranged classes, so the exact same principle applies to hunters. Sniper training gives enough room to overcome every possible scenario, if not maintaining it 100%, you can still capitalize the 6 sec threshold with your big nukes and use the 3 recharge seconds to build up focus again, minimizing the effect.

TLR If sniper training forces you to stand still and eat shit, it is a player problem. If you loose DPS because you can't handle the mechanic, it is again a player problem.

[Baracuda]

It only promotes bad gameplay if you're bad.

[Herecius]

Honestly anything to remove the stand still aspect of it i would be ok with. I cannot fathom how anyone can say they love this talent, even in pve it promotes BAD GAMEPLAY. THis mean you will stand in stuff that is healable (you are a mana sponge) where otherwise you would move out of it. This was the problem with the original incantation of sniper training when blizz decided to remove it, it honestly blows my mind they brought it back.

I wholeheartedly disagree. It only promotes bad gameplay if you're dumb enough to stand in fire because it's a dps boost. It promotes better gameplay because you should learn how to stand still as often as possible while never being in fire and doing mechanics. Plan ahead.

It's like stutter stepping, except stutter stepping was annoying as all fuck, and this is actually a trackable buff I can time instead of having to just try to move exclusively between GCDs.

[Deleted]

i kind of dislike the idea behind Sniper Training, it makes of MM a turret spec.
while Hunters have been promoted and pretty actually been so a free movement class during combat for the last 2 expansions.
and i loved that, even despised the fact Blizzard tended to tune our Dps to low because of it and then started giving other ranged classes more mobility also without much of a trade off.
now they finally toned that back in, only to make one of the hunter specs into a turret just like the other ranged classes
suspose it does make it different from SV/BM in playstyle, doesn't mean i have too like it.

[Fascinate]

It will be a problem pichuca, trust me. Sure its nice the 6 second window, but you will be seeing people standing in stuff and healers complaining. But thats not even my biggest quip here, in pvp its always in the back of your head (stand still or do bad damage) it mentally roots you in place, and you play bad because of it. I understand WoW is a pve game but you cannot forget there is a whole other aspect of the game people enjoy.

I actually think removing arcane shot was a good call, it makes mm different.....but sniper training is just a bad idea imo.

[Herecius]

i kind of dislike the idea behind Sniper Training, it makes of MM a turret spec.
while Hunters have been promoted and pretty actually been so a free movement class during combat for the last 2 expansions.
and i loved that, even despised the fact Blizzard tended to tune our Dps to low because of it and then started giving other ranged classes more mobility also without much of a trade off.
now they finally toned that back in, only to make one of the hunter specs into a turret just like the other ranged classes
suspose it does make it different from SV/BM in playstyle, doesn't mean i have too like it.

It's not a turret spec, though. Not at all. You spend the majority of your time not moving anyways in fights, with or without sniper training. What sniper training simply makes you do is plan your movements intelligently and plan them ahead of time. It would only be a turret spec if we couldn't also cast on the move and it didn't have a generous buffer time. 6 seconds of buffer while moving, and 3 seconds to move AND keep it up 100% of the time anyways.

[Bookofblade]

Sniper training is fun imo it promotes a play style different from the other specs, combined with the cast times of mm abilities causes them to play like more of a traditional caster which I feel is added variety the hunter class needed.

I also feel it promotes better play and understanding of the fight as to best position yourself to minimize movement. Anyone willing to stand in fire and soak up healers time and mana are simply meter whores and likely not someone you want on your progression raid team regardless

[Herecius]

Sure its nice the 6 second window, but you will be seeing people standing in stuff and healers complaining. But thats not even my biggest quip here, in pvp its always in the back of your head (stand still or do bad damage) it mentally roots you in place, and you play bad because of it. I understand WoW is a pve game but you cannot forget there is a whole other aspect of the game people enjoy.

If people are dumb enough to stand in fire or not do mechanics with sniper training, then they would have been dumb enough to do it in the first place even without sniper training. They should probably get booted from the raid anyways, they're just dragging everybody else down.

I won't disagree that it's bad for PvP and needs a tweak, or more preferably, some sort of glyph that changes how it works for PvP, but all this talk saying it encourages players to play stupid doesn't make sense to me.

[Fascinate]

i kind of dislike the idea behind Sniper Training, it makes of MM a turret spec.
while Hunters have been promoted and pretty actually been so a free movement class during combat for the last 2 expansions.
and i loved that, even despised the fact Blizzard tended to tune our Dps to low because of it and then started giving other ranged classes more mobility also without much of a trade off.
now they finally toned that back in, only to make one of the hunter specs into a turret just like the other ranged classes
suspose it does make it different from SV/BM in playstyle, doesn't mean i have too like it.

You summed it up better than i did. Again i wouldnt have as big of a problem with it if the specs were closer in DPS (people in this thread say they are a lot closer at 100, but i have heard different....please feel free to post parses of lvl 100 content if you have them).

[Aldarana]

I cannot fathom how anyone can say they love this talent, even in pve it promotes BAD GAMEPLAY. THis mean you will stand in stuff that is healable (you are a mana sponge) where otherwise you would move out of it. This was the problem with the original incantation of sniper training when blizz decided to remove it, it honestly blows my mind they brought it back.

I can see what you mean by this, personally I stood in and ignored 2sec of borer drill damage on IJ for farm this week because it was heal-able and I didn't want to lose my sniper training buff. On farm I don't doubt that many, many hunters will stand in bad so long as it doesn't kill them for better dps. This is something that other ranged have been doing for a long time. On progression any good hunter is still going to move out of the bad because they understand, or at least they should, that them taking that damage hurts the team more than their dps loss from moving and progression is all about team play. Any really good hunters will plan their movement to get the highest possible up time without standing in fire. During farm players who care about rankings play for themselves and always have. If a hunter doesn't care about their ranks they can just move out of all the bad stuff. My point being Sniper Training doesn't promote bad game play anymore or less than anything else in the game.

[Herecius]

You summed it up better than i did. Again i wouldnt have as big of a problem with it if the specs were closer in DPS (people in this thread say they are a lot closer at 100, but i have heard different....please feel free to post parses of lvl 100 content if you have them).

It's hard to say what the specs will be like at 100 while Blizzard is still claiming that they will do one more number pass after WoD releases and we're leveled past 90.

[Fascinate]

It's hard to say what the specs will be like at 100 while Blizzard is still claiming that they will do one more number pass after WoD releases and we're leveled past 90.

I am talking to the people in beta, obviously. I was watching towelliee do the new raid they are testing yesterday, there were 3 hunters in the top 5 doing around 25k but i couldnt tell what spec they were, i just assume they were all MM.