Sub PvE help.

[Mibzo]

Hello fellow Rogues.

So, I tried sub yesterday in raid, and it's fun to play, but, I feel like I get so many combo points that it's too hard to handle it. So, any got a good rotation guide or can give me a baseline how to spend your combo points?
I know you have to get SnD, Rupture and others DoTs up all the time. When Shadowdance is active do you keep spamming Ambush or do you spend combo points in that phase?

Lots of love,

Mibzo.

[jtstormrage]

My short guide (6.0 not WOD).

• Glyph of Hemorraghing.
• Gem Haste > Crit.
• Always have Rupture, Hemo or Garrote up for 20% damage.
• 100% SND uptime.
• 100% Rupture uptime. Refresh even during FW.
• Max FW uptime.
• Open with SS/Garrote. Then SND, BS to end of first FW and then SD.
• During SD yes, only use Ambush to generate CPs. If your bleed is going to fall off, use Rupture as a finisher, do not Garrote.
• Try to pool some CPs before next Vanish or SD to do more burst during FW.
• Make sure to have SD during last trinket proc and/or with Heroism/BL.

Comments: It is very spammy. You get a lot of energy regen from free CPs which come from HAT. The damage is good but it is the same as Assassination atm. For farm in SOO, I have dropped Sub and gone back to Assassin and Combat for cleave fights. Sub has terrible cleave/aoe (until WOD).

TLDR don’t worry about spam. Enjoy it. Keep up SND, bleeds, FW, profit.

[smana7]

I'm not pro but heres what I do:

I take Shadow Focus not Subterfuge.
Before pull I can get 10 combo points thanks to Honor Among Theives.
Prepot>SnD>Shadowstep>Ambush>Hemo>Rupture>Evis>Normal Rotation

You build combo points using this Ambush(when in Shadow Dance/Vanish/Subterfuge)>Hemo(to refresh bleed only)>Backstab>Hemo(when you cannot stand behind)
You spend combo points in this order SnD(apply/refresh)>Rupture(apply/refresh)>Eviscerate

In Shadow Dance I try to clear combo points so I can use Premeditation for the extra 2 combo points since it doesn't work with Anticipation. Try to fit as many Ambushes as you can and one at the end of your Shadow Dance. You still want to spend combo points so you do not waste any. I believe Rupture is still a DPS increase to use when in Find Weakness so it doesn't affect your rotation.

You want to keep up Find Weakness as much as possible by timing your Shadow Dances and Vanish and Preparation.

[Mibzo]

Thanks for the answers!
Gonna look into it when I get home from school!

[Deleted]

My short guide (6.0 not WOD).
The damage is good but it is the same as Assassination atm. For farm in SOO, I have dropped Sub and gone back to Assassin and Combat for cleave fights. Sub has terrible cleave/aoe (until WOD).

But Sub is more fun to play hehe :-p I'm currently running Sub/Assassination (raid/solo) and having a grand time, I love playing sub. I tried Sin on a couple of fights yesterday on our Mythic raid and almost fell asleep :-p

Combat was getting a bit boring anyway and feels pretty slow now that Shadow Blades is gone :/

[Ryme]

Some quick notes:

Gem with Crafty Vermillion Onyx in red sockets (+10 Haste and +10 Critical Strike)
Gem with Rigid River's Heart in blue sockets (+20 Critical Strike)
Gem with Smooth Sun's Radiance in yellow sockets (+20 Critical Strike)

General stat priority is Crit > Mastery > Haste

Shadow Focus is better than Subterfuge right now.

Use Eviscerate during Dance when you have 5cps, it's DPE is insane and way above ambush, try and squeeze a final ambush in just before dance is about to fade.

Make use of anticipation to help you keep everything up, for example if your rupture is at 9-10 seconds and you have 4-5 combo points, build some anticipation stacks so you can refresh at 8 seconds and not lose any rupture uptime.

[smana7]

Some quick notes:

Gem with Crafty Vermillion Onyx in red sockets (+10 Haste and +10 Critical Strike)
Gem with Rigid River's Heart in blue sockets (+20 Critical Strike)
Gem with Smooth Sun's Radiance in yellow sockets (+20 Critical Strike)

General stat priority is Crit > Mastery > Haste

Shadow Focus is better than Subterfuge right now.

Use Eviscerate during Dance when you have 5cps, it's DPE is insane and way above ambush, try and squeeze a final ambush in just before dance is about to fade.

Make use of anticipation to help you keep everything up, for example if your rupture is at 9-10 seconds and you have 4-5 combo points, build some anticipation stacks so you can refresh at 8 seconds and not lose any rupture uptime.

Shadowcraft (not sure how updated it is at the moment) gets me higher dps using +5agi/+10mast in reds and +10crit/+10mast in blues and mix of +20crit and +20mast in yellows. The difference isn't much but would it be correct?

[Ryme]

Shadowcraft (not sure how updated it is at the moment) gets me higher dps using +5agi/+10mast in reds and +10crit/+10mast in blues and mix of +20crit and +20mast in yellows. The difference isn't much but would it be correct?

Unsure, crit should be really high in value no matter your gear level, it's conceivable that mastery could be higher at certain gear points. Could you link me your armory?

[Deleted]

For me Shadowcraft was recommending Glinting Imperial Amethyst (agi/crit) instead of haste/crit gems. Makes sense as haste is the weakest stat for sub and I think we still get some extra agility scaling. Haven't really tried it in Simulation Craft yet.

Edit: it's with 588 gear (armory has combat gear on and I swap several pieces for sub).

[Ryme]

For me Shadowcraft was recommending Glinting Imperial Amethyst (agi/crit) instead of haste/crit gems. Makes sense as haste is the weakest stat for sub and I think we still get some extra agility scaling. Haven't really tried it in Simulation Craft yet.

Edit: it's with 588 gear (armory has combat gear on and I swap several pieces for sub).

Yeah, at super high levels agi/crit balances with crit/haste - it all depends on how much haste you already have.

[overdose]

Shadow Focus is better than Subterfuge right now.

Last I checked, Subterfuge+glyph of vanish was higher on shadowcraft due to the double subterfuge bug. In order to maximize this only ambush at the start of the first subterfuge and just before the second one ends, and spend excess energy with backstabs/hemo/finishers.

I do this because ambush outside of shadow dance is inefficient to spam, but find weakness is still important to maximize. If shadowcraft spams ambush throughout both subterfuge's, than the increase may even be greater than stated, but probably not by a lot.

[smana7]

Unsure, crit should be really high in value no matter your gear level, it's conceivable that mastery could be higher at certain gear points. Could you link me your armory?

My armory isn't showing after the oceanic server transfers but I'm ilvl 580. However most of my gear was Combat BIS so I have a lot of haste from gear and really little mastery.

[Deleted]

Subs awesome imo most fun spec we got. Its daunting at first but pretty straight forward. Gemming isnt that important since in 2 weeks it will be irrelevant anyway. But crit and haste reds are nice if you are going to play other specs as well.

Sub comes down to keep high uptimes on SnD, Rupture, Hemo, Find weakness.

Since right now we can get combo points outside of combat again with HaT ask a healer to crit a couple of times so you can get full 10cps.

Pull - Prepot - Premed - Snd - Garrote - Ambush - Ambush - Rupture - Ambush - Evis - Shadow dance (your premed should come off cd inside the shadow dance).

Keep SnD and Rupture up at 5cps and the rotation becomes really smooth.

Max find weakness uptime with Vanish and Preperation.

Before you go into any shadow dance or vanish try and pool energy since you dont want to waste potential ambushes you could be getting.

[Deleted]

When do you use prep? I normally use it right after the FW buff from Vanish ends so I may have it off CD again later.. Or is it better use it when I get some buffs?

[Ryme]

When do you use prep? I normally use it right after the FW buff from Vanish ends so I may have it off CD again later.. Or is it better use it when I get some buffs?

Best used in a moment of no procs, MoS of FW so long as Vanish's CD is still over a minute - particularly best in a moment of pooling energy or otherwise not attacking the boss since it's on the GCD.

Last I checked, Subterfuge+glyph of vanish was higher on shadowcraft due to the double subterfuge bug. In order to maximize this only ambush at the start of the first subterfuge and just before the second one ends, and spend excess energy with backstabs/hemo/finishers.

I do this because ambush outside of shadow dance is inefficient to spam, but find weakness is still important to maximize. If shadowcraft spams ambush throughout both subterfuge's, than the increase may even be greater than stated, but probably not by a lot.

Wasn't aware of this, thanks, I'll have a look into it.

[Warstar]

HaT is probably the most different thing that you need to get used to. Every 2 second you'll get a free combo point in a raid environment so you wanna make sure you don't accidentally waste CP by building up to 10 cp and then having an HaT proc go off. While sub can be spammyish with lots of haste and the cheapest energy spenders out of any rogue spec you also can game the system by waiting for them to appear rather than generating them yourself.