Is it possible to be a good Raid-Leader being melee?

[fnfal]

It's a *lot* easier to see things when it's you > boss > melee > ranged in a typical layout, with ranged fanned/spread etc depending on fight, versus being able to see in the back of your head and deal with movement, hitbox, mechanics, and doing dps.

Melee it's ranged (can't see) > other melee (can't see much in the cluster of stupid and spell effects) > boss the size of a planet > tank somewhere on the other side of that.

[Ihsatakar]

Completely. Of the raid leaders I've known, they've always been DPS- both melee and ranged. It might take a bit more effort, but it's still completely a thing. It's much more on the person in question being a good leader rather than the position they're playing.

[Deleted]

About the role for raid leader, I've seen a lot of you saying that being melee DPS can be hard because you only see the boss (that's true) but my question is, wouldn't it be the same for the tank? I mean, they are exactly the same, just changes the fact that they look directly to the eyes (or eye) of the boss...

Can't really give you any advice on this, I've always been leading as a healer or dps.

As others have mentioned in this thread, tanks don't have as many mechanics to deal with as other roles have. So it makes it much easier to lead the raid.

[Harlinson]

I currently raid lead / am the DPS lead as a Rogue, and have been doing call outs (boss health, fire raining down timers etc) since TBC. People in this thread have said make sure to have ranged you rely on to make sure the ranged do their jobs. They're right, i've got 2 people who keep an eye out for me on ranged. As well as a healer to call for Cooldowns and Battle Rezzes as need be.

I've never played a ranged class seriously, but i will say it isn't easy being a raid leader. The main thing is people actually listening to you, you have that and raids go really smoothly. it helps if you wipe a couple times on a fight, they'll really start listening to you then.

My damage has gone down by quite a bit on dynamic fights (read, not Iron Juggs) as i put myself on utility as often as possible, i call things out, i'm watching the raids positioning and health, as well as making sure i'm not standing in stupid stuff. Outside of raids I don't do much but make sure there isn't any drama and form the raids (make swaps and whatnot. It's not easy to do, and I would love to be able to just tunnel and focus on myself. But once you raid lead and do all those things you kind of get used to it and raiding isn't quite the same if you dont.

[aziras]

I raid leaded as MT for a while, but also led a raid group on a hunter during wrath. Not that big of a difference really.

As tank, you have some mechanics you MUST pay close attention to, which makes it a little hard to always notice what goes wrong. Typically you have a boss blocking your view to the melee group too.

But as dps, you get pigeon holed into your rotation to top the meters (don't even try to argue that you don't), which actually ends up taking more focus off the raid.

In the end, it all depends on the raid composition.

A raid with everyone knowing what to do and who can do their own fault assessment it does not really matter who leads the raid (as it is most just a task of logistics).
A raid where most people need coaching and prodding, you need to either have a healer do raid-leading, or have empowered officers taking care of each sub-group.

[Anzen]

I think melee are very viable raid leaders! None of the mechanics ever effect melee and a good portion of most melee time spent in WoD is waiting so gives you something to do ;DD

[Goodman]

It all depends on your situational avareness, if u can see what everybody in the raid is doing and still function in your role. then it shouldnt matter at all what you play DPS, Tank or Healer. And for referance ive had Raidleaders doing each of them.

[Ryme]

Tanks > Healers > Ranged > Melee

DPS need to focus more on rotation than micro managing a 20 man team, in addition, melee arguably have it harder than ranged and finally they have a severally reduced field of vision since they're up the bosses ass all day long.

[Deleted]

I am raidleading as a rogue for a while now. For me it doesn't make much different if you are ranged or melee as you can zoom out the camera (and even more with the extra zoom out command) and get a bird's eye view of what is happening during the fight (and you camera will never be blocked by the boss).
You will lose some DPS/HPS while raidleading, and the class play style will affect how much: a class that needs to spam abilities on GCD will suffer more than a class that is resource limited (like rogues) - while waiting for example your energy to pool you can watch around to see what is happening.

Also, addons help a great deal. Raid frames is your best friend - make them as big as possible so you can easily glance over and see the necessary information (you can add debuff/buffs there as well).
Another thing is use audio warnings, from your boss mod (for boss spell countdowns) or use Weak Auras to gives you a heads up. Audio warning is such a powerful tool and a different sense that can receive information, as chances are your eyes will already be saturated by other things.

Do a situation "rotation" while raidleading, like "check your character - check raid frames - check boss mod". You wil get into the pace as you get more experience and you will be able to focus more on specific tasks depending on the fight and the mechanics.

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot guys for your advice. I've been raid leader for all the LK and Cataclysm, but dropped it on MoP for different reasons (was somewhat force to play so many different classes in Cata (FL and DS) that I lost myself and didn't know what I wanted to play). I have experience raid leading, LK was probably the best moment, and there I raid leaded as a blood dk, never had any problems to be honest.

At the moment I was deciding between playing Ele-shaman, going MW Monk or going back to my old loved blood dk, that's why I needed some...experienced advice.

You are helping me A LOT, you can't imagine how much, not only deciding, but with your experiencies.

Since we are already on topic, I'm sending out there another question for you guys:


- How do you deal with rotations?

In my case, I have, at the moment 3 and maybe, 4 tanks, and 4 or 5 heals (depending if I choose the MW or not).

The healers are not a problem at all since with 4 or 5 we can go on already, but 4 tanks, it's just...well, too much.

How would you handle the rotations? Should I try to...make them all play the same (5 days of raiding so everyone raids at least, 2 days/week) or rotate them depending on the boss? (this last one doesn't make me feel so...secure since we can be on a boss for a long time).

I personally think I should try to make them all play the same amount of time.

This question give us another one:

- When someone rotates, do you give them the chance to keep playing with their off-spec (if doing so doesn't break the balance in the raid) or you just pop them out and let them rest?

- In case that you let them play with their off-spec, would you let them roll loot for their main role or for the off-spec they are in?

I let them play with their off-spec when it doesn't affect the raid, and they can roll for their main spec.

Well, that's it

[enigma28]

I've never played a ranged class seriously, but i will say it isn't easy being a raid leader. The main thing is people actually listening to you, you have that and raids go really smoothly. it helps if you wipe a couple times on a fight, they'll really start listening to you then.

Muchos agreement. I've been RL'ing since I was 16 (I'm 25 now) I personally don't like hand holding, but you know sometimes you have to do it. I run really relaxed raids usually have a healer, and one or both tanks, that will call stuff out with me (I'm a spriest). I find that way no one's attention is divided that much. I try to keep the mood light, constantly cracking jokes and getting into people (or myself) when mistakes occur, I find it helps morale and that jazz. On the listening, even though I'm almost never serious I've never had a problem with people not listening to me, I've always put in the effort, always had raid buffs, and many gems/enchants on hand to use loot immediately, always on time, etc... basically just demonstrate what I expect of them, they seem to respect that and in turn show me the respect of not wasting my time.

On the loot personally I've always made it clear that alts are welcome if you know how to play them and they have appropriate gear, but that there is no way you will be getting loot over a main. Only exception to that rule is if it is an alt that we request is bought frequently (like during a healer drought), and even then I could count the times on one hand that they got something over a main.

If you've only got 3 tanks I'd talk to all three, and see if one would be willing to main DPS. Basically tell them they will have priority on tank loot (after the main tanks), then tell the other two that if they ever want to just chill and DPS they can swap roles with the third guy (if they are willing to work on their DPS set). That's if all three are good players that are worth keeping anyway.
If you've got 4, I'd talk to them all and tell them the options, I'd assume you'd want to give priority to the tanks that have been around the longest? If so explain to the others that the reality is they may not get that much play time. Swapping tanks in and out isn't a good idea as it splits the loot for arguably the most important role in the raid too thin. If your tank can't survive that special ability, or can't dodge/block enough and stresses the heals to breaking, you may as well go and farm some pumpkins.

In general I treat OffSpec as an alt, they get loot only if we use their OffSpec often. If you run a loot council, it's usually easy, tell the three tanks they can work it out among themselves. I had the same situation and the above is what I did, then the three guys would just chat for a min about tank loot and decide who would get it between them. End result was we had our MT with awesome gear, OT just a little behind that, and our 3rd tank not far behind the OT, and the third guy had an on par with other Melee DPS set, and the MT OT worked on their DPS sets in their own time.

[Deleted]

Muchos agreement. I've been RL'ing since I was 16 (I'm 25 now) I personally don't like hand holding, but you know sometimes you have to do it. I run really relaxed raids usually have a healer, and one or both tanks, that will call stuff out with me (I'm a spriest). I find that way no one's attention is divided that much. I try to keep the mood light, constantly cracking jokes and getting into people (or myself) when mistakes occur, I find it helps morale and that jazz. On the listening, even though I'm almost never serious I've never had a problem with people not listening to me, I've always put in the effort, always had raid buffs, and many gems/enchants on hand to use loot immediately, always on time, etc... basically just demonstrate what I expect of them, they seem to respect that and in turn show me the respect of not wasting my time.

On the loot personally I've always made it clear that alts are welcome if you know how to play them and they have appropriate gear, but that there is no way you will be getting loot over a main. Only exception to that rule is if it is an alt that we request is bought frequently (like during a healer drought), and even then I could count the times on one hand that they got something over a main.

If you've only got 3 tanks I'd talk to all three, and see if one would be willing to main DPS. Basically tell them they will have priority on tank loot (after the main tanks), then tell the other two that if they ever want to just chill and DPS they can swap roles with the third guy (if they are willing to work on their DPS set). That's if all three are good players that are worth keeping anyway.
If you've got 4, I'd talk to them all and tell them the options, I'd assume you'd want to give priority to the tanks that have been around the longest? If so explain to the others that the reality is they may not get that much play time. Swapping tanks in and out isn't a good idea as it splits the loot for arguably the most important role in the raid too thin. If your tank can't survive that special ability, or can't dodge/block enough and stresses the heals to breaking, you may as well go and farm some pumpkins.

In general I treat OffSpec as an alt, they get loot only if we use their OffSpec often. If you run a loot council, it's usually easy, tell the three tanks they can work it out among themselves. I had the same situation and the above is what I did, then the three guys would just chat for a min about tank loot and decide who would get it between them. End result was we had our MT with awesome gear, OT just a little behind that, and our 3rd tank not far behind the OT, and the third guy had an on par with other Melee DPS set, and the MT OT worked on their DPS sets in their own time.

Everything you said is really interesting enigma, but I have a few questions.

You say it would be nice to ask the tanks if one of 'em would mind changing main to dps, but my problem is that 3 of 'em already wanna raid as tanks, I asked 'em and they told me that they would raid only as tanks (well, one of 'em told me that in case it whas needed, he could raid, from time to time, as a healer, if he had to rotate, but the problem is that this guy is a Bear and we already have two resto druids).

In that situation, would you let them organize by themselves (probably ending in a fight) or would you do it yourself?

[Deleted]

I would suggest to ask them if anyone wants to switch spec to dps or healing, or reroll to another class. The expansion is reseting everything so it is a great chance for switches.
If they all want to keep as tank then, depending on how hardcore your guild is, you either let go of one player or rotate them during raids - for progress raids though i would suggest to give more time to the best classes / players for each boss.

[enigma28]

In that situation, would you let them organize by themselves (probably ending in a fight) or would you do it yourself?

That's where you or the GM (I was the GM as well as RL the vast majority of the time), have to make the tough call.

If they all want to keep as tank then, depending on how hardcore your guild is, you either let go of one player or rotate them during raids - for progress raids though i would suggest to give more time to the best classes / players for each boss.

As Palp says. Out of the probably 5 or so times I've been in the same situation 3 of those the third/fourth wannabe tank re-rolled and lived happily, the other two left the guild. Basically for me it comes down to three things: guild experience (how long they've been in the guild); skill level; and personality fit. Unless a long time member really doesn't mesh with the guild culture, they always get my vote, we've 'been through the trenches' so to speak, and they deserve more than being thrown aside for no reason. I've done it once (in a tank situation) and that was only because the newer guy was about 10x the tank of the other one (+ I still game with the new guy 5 years later ), but I kept the older tank around and after a few weeks of recruiting started a 2nd raid group for him.

If you want to push progression as fast as you can, you can't be swapping three tanks in and out (I mean you can, but it goes against the goal of progressing as fast as you can lol). Another thing to consider is that some people in the raid may start to get antsy if they think it might be hindering progress. I mean I know nothing about your guild, but the guilds I've ran have usually been Casual/Hardcore, but when it came to raiding it was very competitive, no one liked progress slowing, and performance was directly related to reward (5 person loot council). The raid wouldn't have tolerated it if they thought it was the reason for the 4th wipe on a boss lol.

I also like to keep a team as small as possible (less rotating), builds more cohesion amongst members, after a while people mesh with each other's playstyles and everyone has more fun

The other thing to consider is loss of momentum/time wasted by rotating. It almost always takes longer than it should to rotate someone in/out. The guy coming in is in the middle of a dungeon on their alt, or buying stuff on the AH. The guy getting replaced forgets his time is up, or deletes his hearthstone and has to run out. Whatever it is the time can be detrimental to the overall raid, especially if the rest of you have to wait around.

[Noxina]

But in the end the most important part to think about is; if you do your job good, it dosn't really matter what class you play. And in the end the game is a LOT more fun to play if you play a class/role you enjoy.

I was forced into being our OT in SoO, never have I got so burnt out from a tier, changed my main about 3 times I think, to keep it interesting. Now, if the raidleading part is the part you enjoy, then it is no problem of course. But just keep it in mind; play what you enjoy not what the guild needs. There is always someone you can recruit that can fill that role, and there is really no problem having two raid "leaders", one for the melee group and one for the ranged group.

Oh and expect to be loved for the right calls that give your guild the kill, and then the tenfold of wrong calls that makes you wipe. Shit happens, and you will take the blame. Our guild almost replaced our raid leader once because he did the wrong call on HC Juggernaut, and we wiped at 2%, the harsh thing was that we where racing with another guild we've been friendly with for some time, and as both of us are rather casual, we rather race between us than for realm firsts etc. So we lost the lead because of a bad call.. People tend to lose it after countless hours of hard work and wipes, then just to wipe at a bad call makes it all go baboom.
He did however resign now for WoD, and I'm afraid I will get the spot again, but will most likely pass and just continue as DKP officer.

[Deleted]

If you want to push progression as fast as you can, you can't be swapping three tanks in and out (I mean you can, but it goes against the goal of progressing as fast as you can lol). Another thing to consider is that some people in the raid may start to get antsy if they think it might be hindering progress. I mean I know nothing about your guild, but the guilds I've ran have usually been Casual/Hardcore, but when it came to raiding it was very competitive, no one liked progress slowing, and performance was directly related to reward (5 person loot council). The raid wouldn't have tolerated it if they thought it was the reason for the 4th wipe on a boss lol.

We are not that hardcore. We are casual since we don't wanna be first realm or things like that, but we are hardcore since we want to reach Mythic and complete all the raid content Blizzard offers us.

I'll probably speak with the 4th tank then and explain him the current situation.

About me, I'll probably go for MW Monk. I love tanking, and more indeed with the DK since I love soloing too, but while I love tanking, I REALLY LOVE being not only a raid leader, but a good one, the best one I can be, and since I enjoy healing a lot, and even more with the Mistweaver, I'll probably go for the healing since I enjoy it, I can solo as tank in my free time and I have an amazing global vision of the raid zone

[Meggle]

Just pick a ranged officer to keep an eye out on the ranged people. Easy peasy.

[Wilderness]

It is likely harder to do it from melee, as you often don't have the best field of vision as to what is going on everywhere in the fight. But certainly doable. The best RL I've known was a DK. He was also one of the best WoW players I've ever met, for most aspects from PVP to PVE, which is pretty related to how well he led the raid.

[Deleted]

Really its what you are comfortable with, I have led as healer, offtank/melee and ranged. I have to admit being ranged is a lot easier to coordinate compared to melee and being hunter makes it even easier as you have little to watch and can keep competitive dps.

Healer is a good choice you often learn who is the derps quickly as a healer because you watch the grid and understand who doesn't move out of shit.

The benefit of being leader/tank is you can control the pace of the instance. You can keep the group going straight after boss death (you need a separate lootmaster), pull trash as fast as you can handle and basically stop pointless afk by keeping everyone busy until you stop.

Overall I've led successfully as all and been led by all successfully but I think as a seasoned leader I would choose to be ranged or tank over anything else these days.

[lakhesis]

For all of this, I'm asking you guys, how should I act with these two things?

1) Should I try or somewhat "force" the raiders to at least watch a video-guide of the bosses?

2) How should I deal with those guys/girls used to act as they wanted that now are fighting every change I do?

Lets be clear about something straight off the bat.

The raid leader cannot force anyone to do anything in this game. You're not paying them. You have no non-social authority over them. The most "control" you can manage is to throw them out of the raid & potentially the guild. At which point they can just go elsewhere, and you have to find replacement raiders.

So the question then becomes: will these people get on board with your program?

IMO there are two basic ways to get a (non-paid) person on board with a new plan.

1) Pride in their performance. There will be people in the raid whose nature is to look up strat guides & try to be better. You've got to stop them drowning under the apathy of the others, and set them up as a standard to aspire to.

2) Embarrassment. Let those who don't know what's going on fail of their own accord. Do not explain fights beforehand - assign roles & positions, then pull. Let strat guides be assumed knowledge & let them fail due to their ignorance. There should be no need to drive the point home, they'll just get defensive & start a fight. But they'll know, you'll know & others will know that they failed due to ignorance... and they most likely will not want that shame to happen again. The point is not to be vindictive or combative - the point is to allow for honest self reflection.

The complication will come that some of your more competent members will be the ones not looking stuff up, because frankly they're not being challenged. And some of your least competent members are likely to be the ones looking strats up - cos it's the only way they're keeping their head above water. At that point the mix of pride & shame needs to be tailored to each individual person, and whether it's a strat or class familiarity issue. But that's the social side of raid leading in a nutshell imo.

As far as alts in main raid goes, there are points where you just need to draw a line in the sand. These lines in the sand can kill raids/guilds, but personally I regard equal-loot-prio alts in main raids as such a fundamentally toxic concept that it's worth the risk of killing your guild. It's up there with people who want to dualbox in raids imo.

Never draw a line in the sand if you're not prepared to stand by it. Always have a clear reason & explain what your reason is to the group as a whole - you need their support. But if you draw a line, then commit to it.. even if it means cancelled raids or a dead guild.

You said they're used to a democratic style - use that, make them own the decisions, it's actually a much stronger & more resilient setup than some cardboard dictatorship. Dictatorships only work when you can materially reward or punish, which isn't the case in a non-profit organisation like a gaming guild.

It sounds like you've got a social mindfield going on, so it's down to how well you can handle the personalities involved & get them reacting in a positive manner.

Always be the patient one, don't be condescending, have a clear plan, get others on board with it, and understand when to cut losses.

It's easy to get worried about losing one or two people, but lose track of the fact you're gradually bleeding out your most motivated+capable raiders over time as they get fed up with the penny ante shit they're being made to put up with. Some of them will start acting up, some of them will leave. You want to lose your problem children, not your consistent performers.