1. #1

    Guardian Druid Stat priority for WoD

    The stat priority for a Guardian Druid is:

    Stamina (until you have enough);
    Bonus Armor;
    Mastery;
    Multistrike (up to 10% raid buffed);
    Haste;
    Critical Strike;
    Versatility.
    So I found this on an armory post for being the stat priority for guardian druids going into WoD..

    Seems like the complete opposite of what it was before pre-patch, I would think Crit would still be a viable stat to build?

    anyone have any thoughts on this?

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Failwhip View Post
    anyone have any thoughts on this?
    My understanding is that pre-6.0.2, the reason crit was stacked was due to two things:

    - Building Rage
    - DPS

    Since 5.1 or 5.2, the 'rage per second' build won over 'avoidance' as you could generate rage and then dump it into frenzied regeneration and savage defense. The extra dps was a bonus.

    With 6.0.2, rage generation has changed. Crits generate significantly less extra rage, instead most abilities now generate rage. In addition to Mangle (which already generated rage in MoP), Lacerate now generates 2 rage every time you refresh it and Thrash generates 1 rage per tick.

    Bliz also removed Vengeance in 6.0.2, significantly reducing DPS, meaning all tanks should be trying to...well, be tanks: Reduce incoming damage as much as possible.

    - Mastery is now top priority because Bliz changed the Guardian's mastery- mastery gives us a bubble that's activated passively based on how much damage we've received.

    - Multistrike is next, because multistrike procs extra effects that deal 30% of the damage... and rage. Making it the new 'crit' for rage building

    - Haste is next because it speeds up our auto-attacks, which now also generate rage

    - Crit is now near the bottom because they genreate very little rage (I think it's now 1/3 of what it used to be)

    - Versatility is at the bottom simply because it scales horribly

    EDIT: Oh, and bonus armour is at the top because, well, it's armour. Armour has always been extremely good- and even more so now that it's been overtuned to make up for dodge/parrying being reduced.
    Last edited by SidFwuff; 2014-11-03 at 09:19 PM.

  4. #4
    I wasn't going to post, because honestly our "stat weights" right now were made like halfway through the beta and there's been no posted analysis of them any time recently. Unfortunately, I feel the need to correct a lot from the post above me .

    Before I start though, I'll just answer the OP. The only thing that's obviously wrong is multistrike; giving that a set value to stop at while saying to get "enough" stamina is stupid since, you know, those stats do the exact same thing. Personally, I'm finding our stats to be a lot closer than most people give them credit for, but you wouldn't be doing much wrong by following that list. Still, there will probably be some actual analysis done on our stats before WoD releases, so I'd just wait and see until then.

    The extra dps was a bonus.
    The extra dps was a huge reason we stacked crit. If mastery actually gave DPS, then mastery builds would have at least existed, and if haste actually gave decent DPS, there would've been no one gearing crit past 79%, as opposed to the several people who did. Crit was a pretty good defensive stat, but not nearly as dominant as our gearing would suggest: we were mostly after the DPS.

    Crit is now near the bottom because they genreate very little rage (I think it's now 1/3 of what it used to be)
    1% crit now is worth about as much rage as 1% crit was worth in MoP. Honestly, since it scales so much better with haste now, it would be worth more. What hurt crit's rage is that bear form doesn't give us a 50% boost to crit rating anymore. FR is also a much weaker heal now compared to MoP.

    Crit's saving grace, however, is our talented self-heals: Cenarion Ward and (especially) Dream of Cenarius. These help out more than you might think, and secure crit's niche as the prime self-healing stat.

    meaning all tanks should be trying to...well, be tanks: Reduce incoming damage as much as possible.
    We still do DPS while doing so, and if any stat actually gave 0 DPS like mastery or dodge did in MoP, we would ignore it. What's actually changed is that no stat is like that; they all provide DPS, and the difference between any two stats is at most ~10-15%, and usually much less than that. DPS isn't a factor not because DPS doesn't matter, but because our choice of stats won't meaningfully affect our DPS.

    Haste is next because it speeds up our auto-attacks, which now also generate rage
    It speeds up our everything, which all generate rage. Haste and crit are near-identical in terms of RPS, though haste's rage is slightly more useful since some of it can be used for the extra T&C mauls haste gives. This doesn't help much now since T&C isn't THAT much better than FR, but it's nice at 100 with the t17 2-pc. Haste is also worth a little health if you have a lot of multistrike, and makes things easier to manage if you take pulverize.

    In short, haste sucks at 90, but stuff props it up at 100.

    Multistrike is next, because multistrike procs extra effects that deal 30% of the damage... and rage. Making it the new 'crit' for rage building
    No it doesn't. MS gives 0 rage. MS gives a health buff. Defensively it's inferior to stamina for all but prolonged multi-dotting, because it gives less health per budget and there are all sorts of issues with its health taking forever to ramp up and being somewhat unreliable. What it is nice for is allowing us to gear for health without sacrificing DPS, certainly a better option than wasting our time with stamina trinkets.

  5. #5
    Ahanss is correct. Secondary stats are close (excluding Bonus Armor where appropriate) when you evaluate them as a whole. They just have different approaches to reaching to same goal: Survivability.

    Bonus Armor is always going to be the best stat for any damage that can be mitigated by Armor. If it can't be mitigated by Armor it falls to the bottom (yes, even below Crit). However most bosses have a physical melee component to them (like 99%), so this generally isn't a problem unless we get another Tortos or Lei Shi.

    Mastery is next, and it even prevents and/or triggers from some damage which is not mitigated by armor. Just not bleeds or sonic.

    After that it really depends on your playstyle. Want to be a big meatshield? Get MS/Versa. Want to be more active and self-healing? Get Haste/Crit. Want something between the two? Mix&Match.

    The only thing to remember is that item level for pieces with Armor (Leather/Cloak) is more important than anything....except mayyyyyyybe cloaks depending on the stats.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Ahanss is correct. Secondary stats are close (excluding Bonus Armor where appropriate) when you evaluate them as a whole. They just have different approaches to reaching to same goal: Survivability.
    Sorry I didn't get back earlier, but now I'm a little confused. What I gathered from Ahanss corrections (aside from my blatant incorrect benefit of multistrike) is that we should be gearing for DPS, not survivability. You seem to be saying survivability.

    The list seems to be the same either way though- be it prioritizing mastery for Primal Tenacity or prioritizing mastery for its attack power.

    The reason I'd like to know though is I was under the impression we want bonus armour for the mitigation, not the bonus attack power it gives. If we should be gearing for DPS instead, is mastery or crit better than the bonus armour?

  7. #7
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    One of the reasons crit has been devalued is because bear form no longer increases crit from gear by 50%.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2014-11-04 at 08:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by SidFwuff View Post
    Sorry I didn't get back earlier, but now I'm a little confused. What I gathered from Ahanss corrections (aside from my blatant incorrect benefit of multistrike) is that we should be gearing for DPS, not survivability. You seem to be saying survivability.

    The list seems to be the same either way though- be it prioritizing mastery for Primal Tenacity or prioritizing mastery for its attack power.

    The reason I'd like to know though is I was under the impression we want bonus armour for the mitigation, not the bonus attack power it gives. If we should be gearing for DPS instead, is mastery or crit better than the bonus armour?
    Bonus Armor is nearly identical to a tank's primary stat in terms of the attack power gained. No other secondary stat comes as close to being as powerful for raw damage since Bonus Armor is weighted as a secondary stat rather than a primary stat. It's why Gladiator Warriors will be using the Bonus Armor flasks/potions rather than Crit like Arms/Fury.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SidFwuff View Post
    Sorry I didn't get back earlier, but now I'm a little confused. What I gathered from Ahanss corrections (aside from my blatant incorrect benefit of multistrike) is that we should be gearing for DPS, not survivability. You seem to be saying survivability.
    Along with what Trubo mentions above, the DPS gains from the secondary stats are pretty even for Guardian, but the method/contribution to survival is not. Therefore, gearing towards a certain method of survival should generally yield the same level of damage output, which is why we will likely be gearing towards a certain method of survival instead of DPS.

    For what it's worth, Highmaul has a good volume of the standard "tank-killer" mechanics that are physical in nature, or at the very least physical damage is what will likely kill you in many cases. The only big downside is that some mechanics aren't intuitive in terms of whether our mastery will mitigate the damage or not (hence why I'm not a big fan of mitigation mechanics with fine print, restrictions apply, batteries not included). Especially when it's not consistent. Regardless, BA and mastery will serve us very well, and we truly will worry a lot more about our survival than our DPS output when making gearing choices.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #10
    What's actually changed is that no stat is like that; they all provide DPS, and the difference between any two stats is at most ~10-15%, and usually much less than that.
    Yup, I totally meant that we gear for DPS from that .

    If you actually do want to gear for DPS, obviously stack agi/BA, then go for a balanced build slightly favoring multistrike, as it's the one stat that's meaningfully (read: 10%) better than any other.
    The only big downside is that some mechanics aren't intuitive in terms of whether our mastery will mitigate the damage or not (hence why I'm not a big fan of mitigation mechanics with fine print, restrictions apply, batteries not included).
    PT works on physical "hits". Obviously nothing magic, and nothing that "ticks" (like bleeds).
    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...87270185488384
    Why does it not work on physical "ticks"? I dunno, someone thought it would be funny if it worked that way.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2014-11-07 at 01:10 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SidFwuff View Post
    - Multistrike is next, because multistrike procs extra effects that deal 30% of the damage... and rage. Making it the new 'crit' for rage building.
    Ursa Major is activated and kept up by Multistrikes, so it has a defensive value aswell.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    PT works on physical "hits". Obviously nothing magic, and nothing that "ticks" (like bleeds).
    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...87270185488384
    Why does it not work on physical "ticks"? I dunno, someone thought it would be funny if it worked that way.
    The irony is that PT absorbs some bleeds/sonic damage on live. Of course, I've found sources of damage that don't activate Cenarion Ward, mobs immune to Lacerate bleeds but not Thrash, and a bunch of other quirky things out there. Considering that it's all old content (assuming I can call MoP raids old content at this point, since such occurrences are in MoP raids, as well), probably nothing to kick and scream about as it may potentially just be a bug. As long as things don't turn into "Guardians need to use a major CD for X mechanic, every other tank uses active mitigation and laughs at X mechanic." I think it's partially why I'm loving CW for raid mechanics, since it can be used proactively, scales nicely with Resolve even at lvl 100, and it fills in those holes where PT is useless... and it puts the lvl 90 talents to shame.

    Ah well, kind of digressing from the whole stats discussion, but I should say that even if PT fails at some major mechanics, the overall damage reduction of PT absorbs makes mastery very desirable.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  13. #13
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SidFwuff View Post
    Sorry I didn't get back earlier, but now I'm a little confused. What I gathered from Ahanss corrections (aside from my blatant incorrect benefit of multistrike) is that we should be gearing for DPS, not survivability. You seem to be saying survivability.

    The list seems to be the same either way though- be it prioritizing mastery for Primal Tenacity or prioritizing mastery for its attack power.

    The reason I'd like to know though is I was under the impression we want bonus armour for the mitigation, not the bonus attack power it gives. If we should be gearing for DPS instead, is mastery or crit better than the bonus armour?
    In terms of DPS, BA provides more dps then any other stat. With the lack of vengeance, almost all of our damage comes from attack power. Weapon dps is important, but blizzard changed weapon dps to the point that its no longer as important as before. (In 5.4, swapping to a fishing pole dropped my damage so low that I was unable to keep any threat off anybody, or about 20% of what I would do with a weapon equipped. In 6.0, swapping to a fishing pole decreases my damage by a mere 30%, so most of your damage comes from attack power)

    So in terms of dps, BA=Agi>(I think)Crit=MS>Haste>Mastery>Versatility, for stat wieghts.

    Of course, all of the stats are really close for dps, and overall more crit/haste/mastery/MS/Versatility will no longer raise our dps anywhere near as much as it did in 5.4 due to the lack of vengeance (The higher your AP is, the more value secondaries gain over agi/BA. We now have relatively low AP compared to 5.4 AP lvls, and thus the value of BA/Agi is much greater then previous, and the value of other secondaries for dps is much lower).
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  14. #14
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    All these posts about guardian druids and best stats for DPS is not really productive.

    We are tanks and I, like many others, would like to know best stats to survive and reduce damage as much as possible. This is what we are right? DPS matters no longer for us. We aren't gonna get kicked from raids because of our dps. BUT we will get kicked from raids for dying too much because we prioritise DPS stats.

    So, my actual question is, what are the best priority stats to survive and be a tank?

  15. #15
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clukclukboom View Post
    All these posts about guardian druids and best stats for DPS is not really productive.

    We are tanks and I, like many others, would like to know best stats to survive and reduce damage as much as possible. This is what we are right? DPS matters no longer for us. We aren't gonna get kicked from raids because of our dps. BUT we will get kicked from raids for dying too much because we prioritise DPS stats.

    So, my actual question is, what are the best priority stats to survive and be a tank?
    BA>Mastery. After that you can go for MS (Much more EH), Versatility (More passive mitigation) or crit/haste (more active mitigation). I personally prefer the MS builds, as its nice to have an extra 120% hp with 2-3 targets (Generally around 30-40% hp with heavy MS build single target, but that sacrifices a bit of mastery)

    Crit/Haste is slightly inferior to Versatility from my understanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    BA>Mastery. After that you can go for MS (Much more EH), Versatility (More passive mitigation) or crit/haste (more active mitigation). I personally prefer the MS builds, as its nice to have an extra 120% hp with 2-3 targets (Generally around 30-40% hp with heavy MS build single target, but that sacrifices a bit of mastery)

    Crit/Haste is slightly inferior to Versatility from my understanding.
    Thank you very much

  17. #17
    what do you guys think about trinkets. askmrrobot strongly recommends using both 630 stamina trinkets from Everbloom & UBRS. I sorta feel like stamina is pointless unless I am being one-shot by a something. I know it sort of scales with ursa major from multristrikes but surely this again isn't really worth it unless I am concerned about being one shot.

    I guess like always stamina is ok for a build that considers incoming magic damage important, but my question is would you guys recommend conventional wisdom and using 2 x bonus armour trinkets are going 2 x stamina ideally?

  18. #18
    From the perspective of someone who's experience with Guardian at 100 is almost solely 2 challenge mode runs, I don't think I would put any significant value at all in stamina. If the trinket has something else juicy on it like bonus armor, mastery, or versatility I would certainly consider it, but otherwise I would avoid.


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