Shaco is toxic

[Charge me Doctor]

And Shen has to make several choices like surrendering his lane to his opponent and probably losing a tower to save someone. Or missing health regen when harassing enemy with a knife because of inability to reach enemy to hit him or missing important hard CC and leaving himself out of position, without energy to safe yourself and without his only escape.

[Deleted]

hahaha those first 3 replies made me cry with laughter

[Deleted]

What language is the OP speaking in? It kinda looks like English but it doesn't make any sense.

[Karrotlord]

The thing about counterplay is that it's SPECIFIC TO THE CHAMP. Using a strat that works on EVERY champ is not counterplay. It's just ordinary play.

[Duronos]

Finally. Yes.

Toxic has absolutely bugger all to do with the power level of a champion. Or mana costs. Or...

Sidenote, Shen's ability is not particularly toxic as an opponent can make several choices in the moment itself: kill the ally through the shield. back off. interrupt the yearlong channel.

I knew the entire time but... But that's a stupid way to look at it, it doesn't look at the grande scheme of everything. It's over simplistic and forgets the costs of using said move or how often you can use it.

[Pull My Finger]

Said no high elo player ever, really though no high elo player I talk to thinks Shaco is a toxic champion yet every Bronze through Gold (some low Plat) think he is.

I only read this first sentence. I'm reading it as a normal non-participant. Imagine saying this to a random person in a supermarket.

I'm like WHAT is this person saying?!?!

I don't have the slightest idea what this guy is trying to express.

[Duronos]

And Shen has to make several choices like surrendering his lane to his opponent and probably losing a tower to save someone. Or missing health regen when harassing enemy with a knife because of inability to reach enemy to hit him or missing important hard CC and leaving himself out of position, without energy to safe yourself and without his only escape.

And Shaco has to decide whether or not use his Q early on due to mana costs, difference is that while Shen may lose cs he could have possibly gained a kill or assist out of using his ult much like Shaco could have using his Q and whatever else as well. This is why I play jungle Shen, you don't have to risk your lane since you don't really have one.

Shen is also tanky, he has more leeway in regards to getting attacked than Shaco does, when Shaco jumps in all he has is an ultimate if he's level 6 and maybe just maybe a box if there's no AOE damage. Even then most people try to skirt round round a box or finish before it turns invisible I find. Like I can point different things out all day but apparently the costs of moves and cooldowns mean nothing since it's just kit which makes absolutely no sense, you have to take everything into account.

[Charge me Doctor]

It doesn't, because these are numbers that can be changed easily, while to change a heroes's kit it requires much more work

[Duronos]

I only read this first sentence. I'm reading it as a normal non-participant. Imagine saying this to a random person in a supermarket.

I'm like WHAT is this person saying?!?!

I don't have the slightest idea what this guy is trying to express.

Do you play LoL? If not then you'll be lost on both sides of the argument.

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It doesn't, because these are numbers that can be changed easily, while to change a heroes's kit it requires much more work

And that's what they did to Shaco, they nerfed the ever living hell out him. Boxes used to have instant fear when placed and had a 90 second timer on each. Q used to have a way longer range than flash, his E used to have a flat slow % that was changed to scaling with rank 5 being the old flat %. You can't just play Shaco and be good with him, you have to find ways to make him work.

[Charge me Doctor]

And Shaco has to decide whether or not use his Q early on due to mana costs, difference is that while Shen may lose cs he could have possibly gained a kill or assist out of using his ult much like Shaco could have using his Q and whatever else as well. This is why I play jungle Shen, you don't have to risk your lane since you don't really have one.

Shen is also tanky, he has more leeway in regards to getting attacked than Shaco does, when Shaco jumps in all he has is an ultimate if he's level 6 and maybe just maybe a box if there's no AOE damage. Even then most people try to skirt round round a box or finish before it turns invisible I find.

And that's why i don't have any issues with his Q, Shaco does have to make tough decision and puts himself in danger, but when played passive, when he expects to get ganked or doesn't feel safe, he can just keep it off CD and run away as soon as enemy uses, for example, Taric stun on him completely avoiding (making it useless, you will be stunned in a stealth miles away from enemies, hurp derp).

It's also not an issue of losing cs by Shen, but surrendering lane to an enemy, giving him uncontested farm, giving him free tower and more map control just because Shen just ulted away to save ally/wombo-combo with Twitch-buddy and got a kill. That's why he runs with teleport (or just takes draon/enemy tower after successful ult, there is some options to get back in line) very often and loses his ability to 1v1 at lane properly (ever laned on top against someone with Ignite while you don't have one?, yeah, that sucks, especially when one of your defenses in health regen from a knife), which unless you didn't picked Shen into something really safe will make your life worse. Is there any way to stop Shen from ulting? Yes, basically you can stun him when he jumps to other lane, or keep him at low health so he won't even think about teleporting to others.

I personally don't like jungle Shen because of same reasons why i don't like Udyr or Heca jungle in solo q anymore, without cooperation it's very hard to gank, and cooperation doesn't exist in 9 out of 10 games.

Yes, Shen is tanky, if you build Shaco tanky he is tanky too, but when Shen misses his taunt, he loses 120 energy, it's 60% of his available resource, with regen on 50, he will get it back only in next ~10 seconds. Tho, he has Ki strike to replenish 10/20/30 energy, but it's not always worth of attacking enemies when you out of position just to get energy back. He is left with 80 energy to run away, he can shield up and throw a dagger to Ki strike someone and get HP regen, and that's it. And that's fine, because if he would have Lee Sin out of all badly initiated fights he would be OPed as fuck.

Shaco is a different story, he is not an initiator, he should die if he uses his Q to get a kill and don't have a back up plan

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Do you play LoL? If not then you'll be lost on both sides of the argument.

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And that's what they did to Shaco, they nerfed the ever living hell out him. Boxes used to have instant fear when placed and had a 90 second timer on each. Q used to have a way longer range than flash, his E used to have a flat slow % that was changed to scaling with rank 5 being the old flat %. You can't just play Shaco and be good with him, you have to find ways to make him work.

Yes, and it didn't solved anything, it's the same toxic kit that lacks of counterplay just worse than before. Their train of thought was like "ok we nerf him to the ground so barely anyone will play him, as soon as he gets better representation we nerf him even more because we don't know yet what to do with his kit".

I remember when Heimer was nerfed (his rockets used to target champions instead of all units), how do you think it changed my gameplay? I started using rockets when there is enemy in range and X minions, where X is amount of rockets i shoot out -1. Same cancerous bullshit but from the other side. Many has quit Heimer tho.

Even Veigar kit can be considered toxic, because if you get caught in his E (which requires either you being stupid, or Veigar being good, or luck, because while in his E and not being stunned you have plenty of room to dodge his W) you get smacked with W, Q and R which often deals more damage than you have health, and without help from outside you most likelly going to die. But it's balanced around him not being able to do this again in next 15 seconds, but no one is going to wait for his CDs in midfight, right? You just jump towards Veigar who just wasted everything into Braum and initiate 4v5 teamfight.

I completely understand why you don't want Shaco to be changed to have less toxic kit and to have actual counterplay, because you will have re-learn the character, because many players will find Shaco interesting and attractive to play and create more competition for you, almost a month of him being banned/picked because he is new and slight chance that Riot will fuck this up (spoiler: they won't).

[Duronos]

And that's why i don't have any issues with his Q, Shaco does have to make tough decision and puts himself in danger, but when played passive, when he expects to get ganked or doesn't feel safe, he can just keep it off CD and run away as soon as enemy uses, for example, Taric stun on him completely avoiding (making it useless, you will be stunned in a stealth miles away from enemies, hurp derp).

It's also not an issue of losing cs by Shen, but surrendering lane to an enemy, giving him uncontested farm, giving him free tower and more map control just because Shen just ulted away to save ally/wombo-combo with Twitch-buddy and got a kill. That's why he runs with teleport (or just takes draon/enemy tower after successful ult, there is some options to get back in line) very often and loses his ability to 1v1 at lane properly (ever laned on top against someone with Ignite while you don't have one?, yeah, that sucks, especially when one of your defenses in health regen from a knife), which unless you didn't picked Shen into something really safe will make your life worse. Is there any way to stop Shen from ulting? Yes, basically you can stun him when he jumps to other lane, or keep him at low health so he won't even think about teleporting to others.

I personally don't like jungle Shen because of same reasons why i don't like Udyr or Heca jungle in solo q anymore, without cooperation it's very hard to gank, and cooperation doesn't exist in 9 out of 10 games.

Yes, Shen is tanky, if you build Shaco tanky he is tanky too, but when Shen misses his taunt, he loses 120 energy, it's 60% of his available resource, with regen on 50, he will get it back only in next ~10 seconds. Tho, he has Ki strike to replenish 10/20/30 energy, but it's not always worth of attacking enemies when you out of position just to get energy back. He is left with 80 energy to run away, he can shield up and throw a dagger to Ki strike someone and get HP regen, and that's it. And that's fine, because if he would have Lee Sin out of all badly initiated fights he would be OPed as fuck.

Shaco is a different story, he is not an initiator, he should die if he uses his Q to get a kill and don't have a back up plan

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Yes, and it didn't solved anything, it's the same toxic kit that lacks of counterplay just worse than before. Their train of thought was like "ok we nerf him to the ground so barely anyone will play him, as soon as he gets better representation we nerf him even more because we don't know yet what to do with his kit".

I remember when Heimer was nerfed (his rockets used to target champions instead of all units), how do you think it changed my gameplay? I started using rockets when there is enemy in range and X minions, where X is amount of rockets i shoot out -1. Same cancerous bullshit but from the other side. Many has quit Heimer tho.

Even Veigar kit can be considered toxic, because if you get caught in his E (which requires either you being stupid, or Veigar being good, or luck, because while in his E and not being stunned you have plenty of room to dodge his W) you get smacked with W, Q and R which often deals more damage than you have health, and without help from outside you most likelly going to die. But it's balanced around him not being able to do this again in next 15 seconds, but no one is going to wait for his CDs in midfight, right? You just jump towards Veigar who just wasted everything into Braum and initiate 4v5 teamfight.

I completely understand why you don't want Shaco to be changed to have less toxic kit and to have actual counterplay, because you will have re-learn the character, because many players will find Shaco interesting and attractive to play and create more competition for you, almost a month of him being banned/picked because he is new and slight chance that Riot will fuck this up (spoiler: they won't).

I'm a tad bit scared as they'll "modernize" him, I don't think they'll do a full Sion to him but stuff like .5 seconds of invulnerability when pressing R is something that needs to stay as squishy as he is. It's like a way harder juke but you can use well if mastered.

With that said, I don't think I'll have to "relearn" him.

There is counterplay to Shaco, you talk like there isn't because if you go up to Shaco 1v1... Okay first, who the fuck does that? Who does that to a Jax that's late game? Nobody, people can think about what to do right? Shaco is great for 1v1 and so is Udyr in many situations, you just don't go up to them 1v1 early. That's stupid, you play them indirectly and don't directly try to approach them because that's what we want, I wish every Lee Sin I played against would come into my jungle and try to face me, he's going to lose every single time.

It's just the nature of Shaco, with that said Shaco has a bigger disadvantage than most when it's 2v1, 3v1, etc. and you have to take advantage of that.

[Deleted]

I'm a tad bit scared as they'll "modernize" him, I don't think they'll do a full Sion to him but stuff like .5 seconds of invulnerability when pressing R is something that needs to stay as squishy as he is. It's like a way harder juke but you can use well if mastered.

With that said, I don't think I'll have to "relearn" him.

There is counterplay to Shaco, you talk like there isn't because if you go up to Shaco 1v1... Okay first, who the fuck does that? Who does that to a Jax that's late game? Nobody, people can think about what to do right? Shaco is great for 1v1 and so is Udyr in many situations, you just don't go up to them 1v1 early. That's stupid, you play them indirectly and don't directly try to approach them because that's what we want, I wish every Lee Sin I played against would come into my jungle and try to face me, he's going to lose every single time.

It's just the nature of Shaco, with that said Shaco has a bigger disadvantage than most when it's 2v1, 3v1, etc. and you have to take advantage of that.

The reason people claim there is no counterplay to Shaco is because if you face him he will either kill you or invis away. You need a lot of cc or catch him with a cd on his stealth to kill him.

[Charge me Doctor]

if he loses his disjoint ability (which is i think is going to go, because disjoints is not something that riot wants to keep if i understood their red posts about auto-attacking right) he is most likely going to be compensated for this, remember that his current stats are low because his kit is toxic, when they fix it, they will balance him out. He is intended to be squishy tho, so i don't expect him to have that much survival.

There is no counterplay to him, Jax can't slow you from afar, Jax can't get to you from afar, he has his leap+ stun combo, but in order to use it, he has to activate one of his defenses, wait for stun to be able to be activated, jump on you, then stun and attack. It's not hard to execute, it's not hard to juke also, he loses his dodge (if you are the one who capable of standing toe to toe with late game fighters, like Aatrox for example), he takes away chunk of your health if you fail to juke his very costly initiation and he catches you, he lacks of dodge and you have more chances to take him out than in face to face combat. I want to bold this, he trades his defensive ability to catch up with you, that's what matters, Shaco trades nothing except Q (which is fine, and which is not his defense, but his escape ability).

I'm not talking about coming up on Shaco 1v1 on inapropriate character like, say, Zilean. But if you are fighter or a tank, you should be able to engage him alone without dropping dead in 100% situations. Udyr is kitable, Jax is kitable to some degree, Shaco is not, he has ranged slow, backstab, gap closer, disjoint+clone that deals damage in both situations, when you destroy it and when you don't destroy it and it applies on hit effects (aka red buff and 8% of current health from BotRK).

The fact that you think that it's ok for Shaco to win all 1v1 fights makes your point very wrong, it's not a single player game, there shouldn't be a character that can 1v1 anything

[Duronos]

if he loses his disjoint ability (which is i think is going to go, because disjoints is not something that riot wants to keep if i understood their red posts about auto-attacking right) he is most likely going to be compensated for this, remember that his current stats are low because his kit is toxic, when they fix it, they will balance him out. He is intended to be squishy tho, so i don't expect him to have that much survival.

There is no counterplay to him, Jax can't slow you from afar, Jax can't get to you from afar, he has his leap+ stun combo, but in order to use it, he has to activate one of his defenses, wait for stun to be able to be activated, jump on you, then stun and attack. It's not hard to execute, it's not hard to juke also, he loses his dodge (if you are the one who capable of standing toe to toe with late game fighters, like Aatrox for example), he takes away chunk of your health if you fail to juke his very costly initiation and he catches you, he lacks of dodge and you have more chances to take him out than in face to face combat. I want to bold this, he trades his defensive ability to catch up with you, that's what matters, Shaco trades nothing except Q (which is fine, and which is not his defense, but his escape ability).

I'm not talking about coming up on Shaco 1v1 on inapropriate character like, say, Zilean. But if you are fighter or a tank, you should be able to engage him alone without dropping dead in 100% situations. Udyr is kitable, Jax is kitable to some degree, Shaco is not, he has ranged slow, backstab, gap closer, disjoint+clone that deals damage in both situations, when you destroy it and when you don't destroy it and it applies on hit effects (aka red buff and 8% of current health from BotRK).

The fact that you think that it's ok for Shaco to win all 1v1 fights makes your point very wrong, it's not a single player game, there shouldn't be a character that can 1v1 anything

But it seems that this keeps get emphasized by all of you over and over again, I point everything you have been saying in this thread and it's like you completely contradict yourself saying that you aren't and that I am. No don't throw words in my mouth.

[Ernestoxx]

if you know how to play shaco then he is one of the best champions

[Duronos]

if you know how to play shaco then he is one of the best champions

I'd argue it's partly because he's a jungle champ, junglers can hands down win a game strictly based off of making the right decision 8 times out of 10. Shaco just ups the skill, played vs a couple in normal draft and had no problem dealing with them, they're really really predictable. When Shaco is predictable it means you're doing something wrong.

[Deleted]

if you know how to play shaco then he is one of the best champions

And if you know how to play 10 other champs, they're better.

[Well]

Dude:

Play what you want, how you want and give no fucks. It's a simple (and bad) game and you should treat it like that. Nothing more. And that comes from a diamond guy.