1. #2781
    i just cannot get my head around, that if haste isn't that good compare to crit, why does so many Hpalls wear 4 piece with mostly the archimonde shoulders and not only 2 piece with more items with crit on? can somebody give me an insight?

    edit: post #2792 solves....
    Last edited by siccora; 2015-10-09 at 08:39 AM.
    13/13

    Monk

  2. #2782
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by siccora View Post
    i just cannot get my head around, that if haste isn't that good compare to crit, why does so many Hpalls wear 4 piece with mostly the archimonde shoulders and not only 2 piece with more items with crit on? can somebody give me an insight?
    No math here, look for Alor's posts for that

    Haste is not a bad stat. It only starts becoming 'bad' because with the four piece, Holy Paladins get 18 % Haste completely for free and so the need for more Haste rating on gear diminishes.
    The same can be said for Crit, however. Once you start reaching above 30 % Crit, other stats such as Mastery (and possibly Multistrike) become relatively more desirable.

    Note that Haste is a good stat until 50 % after which it becomes basically worthless because it no longer decreases your global cooldown - and with the four piece it is not actually all that difficult to get close to 50 % Haste simply because of the free 23 % you'll have for free in a raid.

    E: I forgot to mention this, and it's at least of some relevance to the value of Haste: Selfless Healer reduces FoL cast time by 35 % per stack which means it's even easier to end up waiting for the global cooldown.
    Last edited by mmoc0f55b19b7c; 2015-10-09 at 08:55 AM.

  3. #2783
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkwingDuck View Post
    No math here, look for Alor's posts for that

    Haste is not a bad stat. It only starts becoming 'bad' because with the four piece, Holy Paladins get 18 % Haste completely for free and so the need for more Haste rating on gear diminishes.
    The same can be said for Crit, however. Once you start reaching above 30 % Crit, other stats such as Mastery (and possibly Multistrike) become relatively more desirable.

    Note that Haste is a good stat until 50 % after which it becomes basically worthless because it no longer decreases your global cooldown - and with the four piece it is not actually all that difficult to get close to 50 % Haste simply because of the free 23 % you'll have for free in a raid.

    E: I forgot to mention this, and it's at least of some relevance to the value of Haste: Selfless Healer reduces FoL cast time by 35 % per stack which means it's even easier to end up waiting for the global cooldown.
    hmm maybe it is because i play SH for now all the time, that i find myself not needing that much haste.

    but when i put in those numbers from sixthumbs i cannot really find myself dropping 4 piece.

    i put down my numbers, maybe somebody want to watch over this:

    2P setup
    Crit: 2689
    Mastery: 650
    Haste: 1543
    Multi: 612
    Int: 5945

    4P (offpiece M WF Chest with socket)
    Crit: 2294
    Mastery: 926
    Haste: 1338
    Multi: 706
    Int: 5898

    4P (offpiece HC archi shoulders with socket)
    Crit: 2185
    Mastery: 953
    Haste: 1200
    Multi: 880
    Int: 5866

    4P (offpiece M zakuun legs with socket)
    Crit: 1948
    Mastery: 783
    Haste: 1681
    Multi: 786
    Int: 5858

    so i would say that my best setup would be 4P with that M WF chest and a socket.
    but does those statweights count for a SH setup?
    13/13

    Monk

  4. #2784
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by siccora View Post
    hmm maybe it is because i play SH for now all the time, that i find myself not needing that much haste.
    I think you just need to look at the 4p as a boring, straight up 8 % Haste increase. This allows you drop haste in other slots in favour of stats which would benefit you more (such as Mastery).
    In general, because of the amount of free Haste Holy Paladins get, it's probably advisable to aim for pieces with combinations of Crit + Mastery/Multistrike if possible.

  5. #2785
    Quote Originally Posted by siccora View Post
    hmm maybe it is because i play SH for now all the time, that i find myself not needing that much haste.
    I play SH for all fights. What I want is enough haste such that during AW, my rotation goes to Judge->HS->FoL repeat. And I'll lengthen the rotation to throw in a Holy Prism or LoD. I'm at about 1400 haste, I'm a little bit short of that goal right now, I assume the right number is about 50% haste.
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  6. #2786
    Quote Originally Posted by Chocoheals View Post
    The solo healing part isnt the problem, rather easy for a paladin imho. I just find that my BoF kind of just sits and collects dust except for the few times the box runner needs a heal or 2. Fight has no problems with me solo healing my side, was just wondering about mmi/maxing since theres not a whole lot to do during the fight
    Just run Saved By The Light if you legitimately think Beacon isn't needed. Hell, that shield could prove useful towards the end part of the fight honestly. But, it's Assault. Who cares lol. For the record I use BoF and just Beacon my Box runner. Shit ton of overhealing but yolo

  7. #2787
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakera View Post
    Just run Saved By The Light if you legitimately think Beacon isn't needed. Hell, that shield could prove useful towards the end part of the fight honestly. But, it's Assault. Who cares lol. For the record I use BoF and just Beacon my Box runner. Shit ton of overhealing but yolo
    Yeah thats how ive been running it, no problems healing, but that overhealing stares into my soul and i cringe a little bit every time. Ill try SBTL but will probably just stick to bof for the most part

  8. #2788
    Quote Originally Posted by tclphz View Post
    I play SH for all fights. What I want is enough haste such that during AW, my rotation goes to Judge->HS->FoL repeat. And I'll lengthen the rotation to throw in a Holy Prism or LoD. I'm at about 1400 haste, I'm a little bit short of that goal right now, I assume the right number is about 50% haste.
    Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. Sanctified Wrath reduces Holy Shock's cooldown by 50%, but Judgment stays the same. Outside of Avenging Wrath, they have the same cooldown so the normal rotation works.

    You would need 1823 Haste for 50% haste without Avenging Wrath. That only lowers the cooldown of Judgment to 3.63 seconds inside AW, but HS's cooldown is 2.73 seconds (assuming you're using the Merciful Wrath glyph).

  9. #2789
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamguard View Post
    Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. Sanctified Wrath reduces Holy Shock's cooldown by 50%, but Judgment stays the same. Outside of Avenging Wrath, they have the same cooldown so the normal rotation works.

    You would need 1823 Haste for 50% haste without Avenging Wrath. That only lowers the cooldown of Judgment to 3.63 seconds inside AW, but HS's cooldown is 2.73 seconds (assuming you're using the Merciful Wrath glyph).
    Hmm, so no matter what, unless I get an insane amount of haste, the best I can do is just to leave that small gap between the judgments. Thanks for clarifying the math.
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  10. #2790
    I was wondering if any of you smart people had any opinions on how to model the Thunderlord enchant or other Crit-based procs.

    My biggest problem for the Thunderlord enchant is that it's duration is variable. To make things easier, the enchant works like this:

    500 Crit for 6 seconds
    2.5 RPPM + Unlucky Streak Prevention
    While active, critical heals increase the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 6 seconds (12 seconds total).

    I can calculate the average uptime if I know the duration using this forumla: 1.13 * (1 - e-(RPPM * D * H / 60))
    Where D = Duration and H = 1 + Haste%. Unfortunately, the duration isn't always the same. I could use the average duration from logs (~9 seconds), but then I'd just be using an average and it wouldn't change based on your Crit.

    The second problem is whether or not using an average amount of crit is actually valuable for modeling. Say the average uptime is 43%, does adding a flat 215 Crit fully represent what is actually happening? If someone is below the softcap of 2069 crit before the Thunderlord proc, their HS crit chance during AW will be less than 100% and will influence what heal they use based on Infusion of Light procs. If adding the flat 215 puts them over the softcap, the model will assume that every HS inside AW is going to be a crit even if it wouldn't be without the proc.

    I don't think this is an issue for any other secondary and I'm only hesitant about this because of crit's interaction with HS and IoL.

    Any thoughts?

  11. #2791
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamguard View Post
    Any thoughts?
    So many variables to control for.
    A non gaussian-probability distribution for the proc to start with (making the expected uptime value a little bit weirder, but compilable)
    Conditioned on a probability of a binary status (are you in AW or not).
    When does it proc. Can I fit in 2 or 3 100% crit HS?

    To be honest, I'd go with a heuristic. What levels of uptime difference are we talking about? A range of [8s;10s]?
    You got some good intentions there, but I think the effort is not worth it.

    Oh btw.: Does your function include the 4.54% additional crit-chance you have during thunderlord to extend the time of thunderlord?

    edit: to be accurate, you would also have to include wether you're casting a prism or LoD (when playing SH) during thunderlords, to account for 5x/6x chance to land a critical strike in one GCD. (Or is it working all crit or none? Not sure right now)
    Last edited by mmoc3c639dd81a; 2015-10-11 at 09:48 AM.

  12. #2792
    Quote Originally Posted by Sixthumbs View Post
    You got some good intentions there, but I think the effort is not worth it.
    I think you're probably right. If this was a model that actually simulated an encounter it might be worth it, but probably not for the scope of a spreadsheet.
    I was really only worried about it because Selfless Healer and Eternal Flame seem to have different relative weights for crit both under and over the softcap so I was hoping to be able to see how much better Thunderlord was for one spec vs. the other.

    Thanks for the help though, Sixthumbs.

  13. #2793
    Mechagnome CloudedInSanity's Avatar
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    Mastery also has a soft cap once you start approaching the point where your heals are critting for or over someones maximum health, which is already happening.
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  14. #2794
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudedInSanity View Post
    Mastery also has a soft cap once you start approaching the point where your heals are critting for or over someones maximum health, which is already happening.
    To clarify, the maximum Illuminated Healing absorb is based on 1/3 of your health, but your point remains the same. The problem is that almost all stat weights are determined by modeling healing and not simulating it so we can't really figure out that softcap very easily. The model uses averages instead of simulating the actual heals so we have no way of knowing exactly how much mastery is being wasted because the averages never get that high.

    Conceptually, we are very close to that softcap already (assuming you gear for crit > mastery > anything else, and are at the upper levels of Mythic HFC), but I'm not sure it's something that we have to be too concerned with. That specific scenario ends up being such an incredibly small portion of our healing that it isn't worth worrying about, IMO. I'm not trying to say it's not a worthwhile discussion or something to consider, just that actually finding that softcap is an incredibly daunting task. Also, this problem only exists at relatively high item level in conjunction with the Archimonde trinket. This problem won't persist into Legion unless they fundamentally change how our mastery works.

  15. #2795
    Mechagnome CloudedInSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamguard View Post
    To clarify, the maximum Illuminated Healing absorb is based on 1/3 of your health, but your point remains the same. The problem is that almost all stat weights are determined by modeling healing and not simulating it so we can't really figure out that softcap very easily. The model uses averages instead of simulating the actual heals so we have no way of knowing exactly how much mastery is being wasted because the averages never get that high.

    Conceptually, we are very close to that softcap already (assuming you gear for crit > mastery > anything else, and are at the upper levels of Mythic HFC), but I'm not sure it's something that we have to be too concerned with. That specific scenario ends up being such an incredibly small portion of our healing that it isn't worth worrying about, IMO. I'm not trying to say it's not a worthwhile discussion or something to consider, just that actually finding that softcap is an incredibly daunting task. Also, this problem only exists at relatively high item level in conjunction with the Archimonde trinket. This problem won't persist into Legion unless they fundamentally change how our mastery works.
    You're right, and with my gear I am hitting this cap at around 30% Mastery. Getting 400k+ FoL during Wings in raid. I know it's not a big problem, just something worth considering. I personally wouldn't go over 35% Mastery if you are a Mythic raider.
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  16. #2796
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudedInSanity View Post
    You're right, and with my gear I am hitting this cap at around 30% Mastery. Getting 400k+ FoL during Wings in raid. I know it's not a big problem, just something worth considering. I personally wouldn't go over 35% Mastery if you are a Mythic raider.
    400k with 30% mastery = 120k absorb
    ~465k health = ~153,5k cap (I dont know your exact health, I have ~469k buffed)
    You would need ~38,35% mastery while critting 400k to cap out with 465k health.

    If you're below 33%, you need to crit more than your max health
    If you're above 33%, you need to crit less than your max health

  17. #2797
    Mechagnome CloudedInSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leefa View Post
    400k with 30% mastery = 120k absorb
    ~465k health = ~153,5k cap (I dont know your exact health, I have ~469k buffed)
    You would need ~38,35% mastery while critting 400k to cap out with 465k health.

    If you're below 33%, you need to crit more than your max health
    If you're above 33%, you need to crit less than your max health
    This is also before Multistrike.

    Edit: Fixed
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  18. #2798
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamguard View Post
    The problem is that almost all stat weights are determined by modeling healing and not simulating it so we can't really figure out that softcap very easily. The model uses averages instead of simulating the actual heals so we have no way of knowing exactly how much mastery is being wasted because the averages never get that high.
    In a formulation such as this, while we certainly can't incorporate the effect towards hitting/exceeding the Illuminated Healing absorb cap of temporary buffs or casting spells on targets with a pre-existing Illuminated Healing absorb, we can incorporate the effect of creating an absorb that exceeds the Illuminated Healing absorb cap in a single cast.

    To do this would require the following to be done,

    1. Set out the various combinations of critical and/or multistrikes that may occur. For each combination, calculate the relevant factor to go with it; e.g. a factor of 2 for a critical strike with no multistrikes (2.04 for a Dwarf or Tauren), or 1.3 for a normal hit with one non-critical multistrike.
    2. For each heal that can produce Illuminated Healing, calculate the total healing the spell will do in each of the possible critical/multistrike scenarios, using the factors from above, and calculate the corresponding Illuminated Healing absorb created in each case. Where this absorb exceeds the cap, enforce the cap.
    3. Using the probability of each combination and the numbers from above, calculate the expected Illuminated Healing benefit.
    4. The above would need to be done twice; once for outside AW and again for inside it.

    Obviously, since we're only applying a cap on Illuminated Healing, the expected amount of actual healing is unchanged and is still the straightforward average we know and love; only the Mastery contribution would change by implementing the above process.

    It would be a lot of work for what would likely amount to a rather small change in the Mastery weight and associated total healing amounts, but it would be interesting from a theoretical point of view.
    Last edited by Myllior; 2015-10-15 at 06:31 AM.
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  19. #2799
    Quote Originally Posted by Myllior View Post
    It would be a lot of work for what would likely amount to a rather small change in the Mastery weight and associated total healing amounts, but it would be interesting from a theoretical point of view.
    You know, this might not be as much work as I was thinking it would be. Flash of Light with Infusion of Light + Selfless Healer + Archimonde Trinket is really the only possible heal that can reach these numbers. It might be possible for non-Selfless Healer Flash of Lights to go over the IH cap, but either way it would still only be for 2 specific heals.

    I don't think the end result would be a "softcap" in its traditional sense because the amount of healing wasted would be such a small percentage of your total healing that it might not change the weight of mastery like a typical softcap would. Also, the number would depend on several other factors specific to the player that it would never be a static cap.

    Still, I'm intrigued as well. I might work on this later.

  20. #2800
    Pretty new to serious raid healing on paladin and was looking for some critique. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...romen/advanced After reading the last dozen pages or so I know that my haste is way too high and am trying to get gorefiend legs/archi shoulders. I'm wondering if SH is still the same rotation of HS/Judge/FoL/x and if switching up the placement of HS and Judge would do anything.

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